What is better, no guns, or more guns?

[jrober38]

1 minute ago, njbuff said:

 

To say it only happens in America is pretty disingenuous.

 

Mass shootings happen other places from time to time. Often years apart in many developed countries.

 

It happens in the US on almost a weekly basis. 

[row_33]

1 minute ago, jrober38 said:

 

Mass shootings happen other places from time to time. Often years apart in many developed countries.

 

It happens in the US on almost a weekly basis. 

 

Thanks for that valuable insight, nobody else could possibly have come up with this genius.

 

 

[Boatdrinks]

Just now, jrober38 said:

 

Mass shootings happen other places from time to time. Often years apart in many developed countries.

 

It happens in the US on almost a weekly basis. 

The answer probably lies largely in cultural issues. Not guns themselves. They are just a means to an end. The motive is not “ I can get a high powered weapon, so I will now decide to kill large amounts of people “. There is usually a deeper motive that the perp is acting out on. 

[row_33]

The Norway matter was the most chilling, right through the trial and sentencing.

 

 

[Boatdrinks]

15 minutes ago, B-Man said:

 

 

 

 

This as far from the truth as humanly possible.

 

 

You are aware where ChristChurch is ?

 

There is no time to list the hundreds of other examples.

 

 

 

 

 

Yeah, doesn’t fit their narrative. The perp was a lefty, didn’t legally purchase his weapon, and was shot down before he could take even more lives ( which he would have). “ Nothing to see here “ 

Edited August 5, 2019 by Boatdrinks

[jrober38]

Just now, Boatdrinks said:

The answer probably lies largely in cultural issues. Not guns themselves. They are just a means to an end. The motive is not “ I can get a high powered weapon, so I will now decide to kill large amounts of people “. There is usually a deeper motive that the perp is acting out on. 

 

I think this is a cop out. There are cultural issues all over the world. In the globalized world, everyone has extreme politics, everyone has immigrants, and everyone has a portion of the population who wants to hold onto the way things were. 

 

The main problem is that deranged individuals can walk into a store and legally buy semi automatic weapons and stockpiles of ammo without any deterrents. 

 

The Dayton shooter killed 9 and wounded 16 more in 30 seconds before he was killed. Even when there's a good guy with a gun, that's the type of carnage these weapons can inflict in a short time period.

[Boatdrinks]

9 minutes ago, jrober38 said:

 

Mass shootings happen other places from time to time. Often years apart in many developed countries.

 

It happens in the US on almost a weekly basis. 

And what of the “ mass shootings “ that take place over a summer in say , Chicago ? Crickets on CNN et al....

1 minute ago, jrober38 said:

 

I think this is a cop out. There are cultural issues all over the world. In the globalized world, everyone has extreme politics, everyone has immigrants, and everyone has a portion of the population who wants to hold onto the way things were. 

 

The main problem is that deranged individuals can walk into a store and legally buy semi automatic weapons and stockpiles of ammo without any deterrents. 

 

The Dayton shooter killed 9 and wounded 16 more in 30 seconds before he was killed. Even when there's a good guy with a gun, that's the type of carnage these weapons can inflict in a short time period.

I believe the Dayton shooter’s weapon was obtained illegally. Again, criminals will find a way to obtain these weapons. How does one rid the black market of the flood of weapons currently available ? That’s a much tougher problem to solve. 

[jrober38]

3 minutes ago, Boatdrinks said:

And what of the “ mass shootings “ that take place over a summer in say , Chicago ? Crickets on CNN et al....

Good point.

 

Pretty sure in one of my earlier posts I said I'd implement a program encouraging the public to turn in illegal weapons or give info on who has them. Something like $500 per handgun and $1000 per assault rifle.

 

I'm not trying to cherry pick anything. My position is very consistent in that guns need to be harder to access. 

 

If you have to get a license to drive a car, you should get a license to buy a gun showing you understand the laws around ownership and have demonstrated proper gun safety techniques to experienced gun operators. 

Edited August 5, 2019 by jrober38

[row_33]

2 minutes ago, jrober38 said:

 

I think this is a cop out. There are cultural issues all over the world. In the globalized world, everyone has extreme politics, everyone has immigrants, and everyone has a portion of the population who wants to hold onto the way things were. 

 

The main problem is that deranged individuals can walk into a store and legally buy semi automatic weapons and stockpiles of ammo without any deterrents. 

 

The Dayton shooter killed 9 and wounded 16 more in 30 seconds before he was killed. Even when there's a good guy with a gun, that's the type of carnage these weapons can inflict in a short time period.

 

Your country is obsessed with guns, it was founded on a War, the high priority of the 2nd amendment went to gun rights. Farming and hunting and the military are engrained for generations.

 

this Canadian doesn’t even remotely agree, but fully understands.

 

 

 

 

 

[jrober38]

1 minute ago, row_33 said:

 

Your country is obsessed with guns, it was founded on a War, the high priority of the 2nd amendment went to gun rights. Farming and hunting and the military are engrained for generations.

 

this Canadian doesn’t even remotely agree, but fully understands.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Never once have I said guns should be banned.

 

Own all the guns you want after you pass a proper test and extensive background check proving your capable of handling a weapon responsibly and are fit to own a gun without being a danger to anyone or yourself. 

[Boatdrinks]

2 minutes ago, jrober38 said:

Good point.

 

Pretty sure in one of my earlier posts I said I'd implement a program encouraging the public to turn in illegal weapons or give info on who has them. Something like $500 per handgun and $1000 per assault rifle.

 

I'm not cherry picking anything. My position is very consistent in that guns need to be harder to access. 

Maybe they do, but I don’t think the impact would be very big. The black market is too big. How did outlawing marijuana turn out, for example. Your suggestions on buybacks sound good, but there is a lack of respect for law enforcement in America that is deep rooted in some cultures. There are political and cultural obstacles to these things. I just don’t see an easy fix. 

[row_33]

2 minutes ago, jrober38 said:

 

Never once have I said guns should be banned.

 

Own all the guns you want after you pass a proper test and extensive background check proving your capable of handling a weapon responsibly and are fit to own a gun without being a danger to anyone or yourself. 

 

The whole conversation is bizarre to me.... one or two topics I have no attempt to influence with my American friends.

 

criminals don’t obey the law, they never will.

 

an AK47????  What on earth....

————-

 

Canadian media has no qualms about broadcasting the names of the shooters

[jrober38]

2 minutes ago, Boatdrinks said:

Maybe they do, but I don’t think the impact would be very big. The black market is too big. How did outlawing marijuana turn out, for example. Your suggestions on buybacks sound good, but there is a lack of respect for law enforcement in America that is deep rooted in some cultures. There are political and cultural obstacles to these things. I just don’t see an easy fix. 

 

I don't view the perpetrators of most of these shootings as criminals in the sense you're describing. 

 

I understand they're breaking a law, but this is purely a mental illness thing in my eyes. For the most part, these are deranged, socially awkward white men in their 20s with minimal social skills.

 

If you make something like this illegal, I think the odds of these guys navigating the black market to find a gun to kill a bunch of people with is slim to none. I think that's why you hardly see it in other countries. 

 

It's one thing to sell someone some weed because frankly who cares. I think it's another to sell some sketchy guy a gun illegally who fits the profile of a potential mass shooter. 

 

Just my opinion. 

 

Maybe he'll resort to another weapon, but whatever the alternate choice it'll be a hell of a lot less effective than an AR-15 or similar model. 

[row_33]

1 minute ago, jrober38 said:

 

If you make something like this illegal, I think the odds of these guys navigating the black market to find a gun to kill a bunch of people with is slim to none. I think that's why you hardly see it in other countries. 

 

 

 

 

 

90 percent of Canadians have no thoughts about guns their whole life.

 

[Boatdrinks]

4 minutes ago, jrober38 said:

 

I don't view the perpetrators of most of these shootings as criminals in the sense you're describing. 

 

I understand they're breaking a law, but this is purely a mental illness thing in my eyes. For the most part, these are deranged, socially awkward white men in their 20s with minimal social skills.

 

If you make something like this illegal, I think the odds of these guys navigating the black market to find a gun to kill a bunch of people with is slim to none. I think that's why you hardly see it in other countries. 

 

It's one thing to sell someone some weed because frankly who cares. I think it's another to sell some sketchy guy a gun illegally who fits the profile of a potential mass shooter. 

 

Just my opinion. 

 

Maybe he'll resort to another weapon, but whatever the alternate choice it'll be a hell of a lot less effective than an AR-15 or similar model. 

I think the young person you’re describing is becoming increasingly common, created by the internet obsessed society that we now are. I don’t know the percentage of these shootings that are carried out with illegal or legally obtained weapons. It’s just not any one thing , it’s a perfect storm of things from what they are taught at school to decreased social interaction due to internet and smartphone addiction along with other influences. I don’t think it’s pure madness in the way of say a Dahmer or some other serial killer. Just a violent lashing out due to other psychosis brought on by environmental factors. I still think that most anyone could get their hands on an illegal high powered weapon fairly easily.  That’s just my opinion though. While I am not a “ gun person “, there are substantial constitutional, cultural and political barriers to any sweeping changes via legislation. 

[B-Man]

 

OOPS

[Big Blitz]

A short thread.  Good takes, exactly what I was trying to say earlier:

 

 

[Hedge]

2 hours ago, jrober38 said:

 

Mass shootings happen other places from time to time. Often years apart in many developed countries.

 

It happens in the US on almost a weekly basis. 

 

I would assume that the systematic shuttering of mental institutions, along with the rise of those taking (or needing) behavior modification drugs plays a large part. I have no idea what is going in other countries in those regards.

[Bakin]

The culprit is SSRI drugs. 

Ban them. 

[Doc Brown]

6 hours ago, jrober38 said:

 

I don't view the perpetrators of most of these shootings as criminals in the sense you're describing. 

 

I understand they're breaking a law, but this is purely a mental illness thing in my eyes. For the most part, these are deranged, socially awkward white men in their 20s with minimal social skills.

 

If you make something like this illegal, I think the odds of these guys navigating the black market to find a gun to kill a bunch of people with is slim to none. I think that's why you hardly see it in other countries. 

 

It's one thing to sell someone some weed because frankly who cares. I think it's another to sell some sketchy guy a gun illegally who fits the profile of a potential mass shooter. 

 

Just my opinion. 

 

Maybe he'll resort to another weapon, but whatever the alternate choice it'll be a hell of a lot less effective than an AR-15 or similar model. 

It's a good question.  Do these extremely isolated people whose only real interaction is with like minded individuals in some radical online forum have the social skills required to acquire a weapon like the AR-15 off the black market? 

 

I'm not sure, but I've always been in favor of raising the gun buying age until 26 as your brain's cognitive processing isn't fully developed until that point.  If you want to be able to purchase a gun before that age you should have to pass a psychological background test, have a clean criminal record, and receive a gun training course.  It'll pry never happen though given the slippery slope argument that many 2nd amendment advocates make.

Edited August 5, 2019 by Doc Brown

[jrober38]

3 hours ago, Doc Brown said:

It's a good question.  Do these extremely isolated people whose only real interaction is with like minded individuals in some radical online forum have the social skills required to acquire a weapon like the AR-15 off the black market? 

 

I'm not sure, but I've always been in favor of raising the gun buying age until 26 as your brain's cognitive processing isn't fully developed until that point.  If you want to be able to purchase a gun before that age you should have to pass a psychological background test, have a clean criminal record, and receive a gun training course.  It'll pry never happen though given the slippery slope argument that many 2nd amendment advocates make.

 

I don't think they do, because if they did mass shootings would still happen all over the world. It's not like the US has a monopoly on mental illness.

 

What they do have is a monopoly of developed countries allowing people with mental illness to access firearms.

 

These type of people don't navigate the black market anywhere else in the developed world, which shoots down the idea that these people will continue to access guns.

 

I think your average career criminal, who either deals drugs, steals, etc, can probably continue to access firearms, but I think the 24 year old loner with zero social skills will have hardly any luck doing so. 

 

If anything, I think the government would feast on finding these guys who want to buy guns online and compiling them into a database. The lone wolf shooters do everything online so I'd think that's where they'd try to find their weapons, and I think the FBI or whoever would feast on trapping them and stopping these shootings before they happen.

Edited August 5, 2019 by jrober38

[BeginnersMind]

This line that criminals will get guns is curious. It's true for a lot of gang-related crime for sure. But it can't be put the test in many of these cases of the mass shooters because the guns were legal. 

 

Whether these people would have had the social acumen to navigate an illegal firearms market to get the guns is unknown, but it at least could have been harder. 

 

I am not for banning firearms but reducing the number and ease with which people can acquire them, especially weapons like this that are not for hunting, seems prudent. 

 

Trump's role? Don't know. He's a symptom of a problem on this front. Joking about shooting illegal aliens looks pretty bad right now. 

[jrober38]

9 hours ago, Boatdrinks said:

I think the young person you’re describing is becoming increasingly common, created by the internet obsessed society that we now are. I don’t know the percentage of these shootings that are carried out with illegal or legally obtained weapons. It’s just not any one thing , it’s a perfect storm of things from what they are taught at school to decreased social interaction due to internet and smartphone addiction along with other influences. I don’t think it’s pure madness in the way of say a Dahmer or some other serial killer. Just a violent lashing out due to other psychosis brought on by environmental factors. I still think that most anyone could get their hands on an illegal high powered weapon fairly easily.  That’s just my opinion though. While I am not a “ gun person “, there are substantial constitutional, cultural and political barriers to any sweeping changes via legislation. 

 

The young person we're describing is common all over the developed world, but that guy only commits mass murder in the United States and I'm convinced it's because the gun laws are too relaxed. 

 

Other factors play a part, and you will certainly not stop all of these atrocities, but I think eliminating the easy access to guns and ammo would go a long way in reducing the number of shootings that do happen. 

Edited August 5, 2019 by jrober38

[SoCal Deek]

I’m not a gun owner and don’t have a problem with those that are, either for sport or self protection...but something has to change. No? Seems to me we should try a particular legislative remedy for a while and see if it has an impact. Consider it a scientific experiment. Change a single variable and record the results for two or three years.

[3rdnlng]

24 minutes ago, BeginnersMind said:

This line that criminals will get guns is curious. It's true for a lot of gang-related crime for sure. But it can't be put the test in many of these cases of the mass shooters because the guns were legal. 

 

Whether these people would have had the social acumen to navigate an illegal firearms market to get the guns is unknown, but it at least could have been harder. 

 

I am not for banning firearms but reducing the number and ease with which people can acquire them, especially weapons like this that are not for hunting, seems prudent. 

 

Trump's role? Don't know. He's a symptom of a problem on this front. Joking about shooting illegal aliens looks pretty bad right now. 

WTF?

[BeginnersMind]

Make of her as a presidential candidate what you will, but Marianne Williamson has the best solution to these. What they need is a lot more love and compassion. From everyone and to everyone. Hate breeds hate. 

Just now, 3rdnlng said:

WTF?

 

I agree with you. That line looks terrible. 

[3rdnlng]

3 minutes ago, BeginnersMind said:

Make of her as a presidential candidate what you will, but Marianne Williamson has the best solution to these. What they need is a lot more love and compassion. From everyone and to everyone. Hate breeds hate. 

 

I agree with you. That line looks terrible. 

If I'm not mistaken, you wrote it.

[jrober38]

19 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

I’m not a gun owner and don’t have a problem with those that are, either for sport or self protection...but something has to change. No? Seems to me we should try a particular legislative remedy for a while and see if it has an impact. Consider it a scientific experiment. Change a single variable and record the results for two or three years.

 

Yeah, the status quo cannot be an option anymore.

 

Something has to be done, even if it's on a trial basis for a couple years and then expires. 

[Tiberius]

George Conway reels off a damning indictment of Trump. “Even if Trump didn’t incite it, he utterly lacks the moral authority or credibility to address it, which it’s his job to do. He lacks the moral authority and credibility to serve generally — but especially on this. This just pathetically highlights his total unfitness for office.”

26 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

I’m not a gun owner and don’t have a problem with those that are, either for sport or self protection...but something has to change. No? Seems to me we should try a particular legislative remedy for a while and see if it has an impact. Consider it a scientific experiment. Change a single variable and record the results for two or three years.

Make illegal all military style rifles? 

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

3 minutes ago, jrober38 said:

 

Yeah, the status quo cannot be an option anymore.

 

Something has to be done, even if it's on a trial basis for a couple years and then expires. 

One of the challenges is, in spite of the narrative to the contrary, there are people and politicians looking to take away the right to personal ownership of firearms.  For the millions upon millions of sensible, lawful gun owners in the country---that's a deal breaker and any further movement away from the right to bear arms is not so much a slippery slope but a gaping chasm. 

 

 

[Tiberius]

2 minutes ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said:

One of the challenges is, in spite of the narrative to the contrary, there are people and politicians looking to take away the right to personal ownership of firearms.  For the millions upon millions of sensible, lawful gun owners in the country---that's a deal breaker and any further movement away from the right to bear arms is not so much a slippery slope but a gaping chasm. 

 

 

Just certain types of guns. No one is saying hunting rifles, shotguns or pistols are going to be banned, just military style assault weapons. 

[jrober38]

2 minutes ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said:

One of the challenges is, in spite of the narrative to the contrary, there are people and politicians looking to take away the right to personal ownership of firearms.  For the millions upon millions of sensible, lawful gun owners in the country---that's a deal breaker and any further movement away from the right to bear arms is not so much a slippery slope but a gaping chasm. 

 

 

 

Agreed. 

 

Banning things will never work. But making it harder to access weapons should be the goal.

 

It shouldn't be an inconvenience for someone to take a course, get vetted and prove that they're actually a responsible gun owner. If the trade off is making people safer, how can that not be something everything is on board with? 

 

If you have to get licensed to drive a car, why should you not have to get licensed to own firearms?

[Tiberius]

10 hours ago, Boatdrinks said:

I think the young person you’re describing is becoming increasingly common, created by the internet obsessed society that we now are. I don’t know the percentage of these shootings that are carried out with illegal or legally obtained weapons. It’s just not any one thing , it’s a perfect storm of things from what they are taught at school to decreased social interaction due to internet and smartphone addiction along with other influences. I don’t think it’s pure madness in the way of say a Dahmer or some other serial killer. Just a violent lashing out due to other psychosis brought on by environmental factors. I still think that most anyone could get their hands on an illegal high powered weapon fairly easily.  That’s just my opinion though. While I am not a “ gun person “, there are substantial constitutional, cultural and political barriers to any sweeping changes via legislation. 

Honest question here. If this guy was yelling allah Akbar, your opinion would be completely different, though, right? You would not be trying to make it about lonelyness or the internet, it would be in a thread literally entitles "Islamic Terrorism" Where have we seen that? 

[jrober38]

1 minute ago, Tiberius said:

Honest question here. If this guy was yelling allah Akbar, your opinion would be completely different, though, right? You would not be trying to make it about lonelyness or the internet, it would be in a thread literally entitles "Islamic Terrorism" Where have we seen that? 

 

I agree with this. 

 

There's a clear double standard when it's a white guy who does it.

 

If it had been a Latino, Trump would be saying build the wall.

 

If it had been a Muslin, Trump would be talking about his travel ban.

 

When it's a white guy, it's just thoughts and prayers and then radio silence from the GOP until the news cycle changes. 

[Taro T]

16 minutes ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said:

One of the challenges is, in spite of the narrative to the contrary, there are people and politicians looking to take away the right to personal ownership of firearms.  For the millions upon millions of sensible, lawful gun owners in the country---that's a deal breaker and any further movement away from the right to bear arms is not so much a slippery slope but a gaping chasm. 

 

 

 

This in large part.

 

There are enough on the "stronger gun control" movement side that have admitted that their goal is a total gun ban in the past that there is extremely little trust of them from the other side.

 

Perhaps, if that side proposed actual legislation that ONLY included items such as better gun safety education and we saw how that actually got enforced and whether that was effective, then we might have a basis for deciding how / whether to bring additional modifications to existing gun laws.

 

It also might help build trust across the sides if new legislation proposals weren't reflexively in reaction to a hyped shooting &/or if there was an acknowledgement that there are a lot of gun laws already on the books.

 

IMHO, the biggest impediments to solving the problem of mass shootings is a lack of trust from both sides and an insistence of looking for major sweeping changes to one aspect of a multifaceted problem primarily when emotions are raw eroding even more trust.

[ALF]

8chan goes offline after Cloudflare pulls support for website used by El Paso suspect

 

The rationale is simple: they have proven themselves to be lawless and that lawlessness has caused multiple tragic deaths. Even if 8chan may not have violated the letter of the law in refusing to moderate their hate-filled community, they have created an environment that revels in violating its spirit," Matthew Prince, Cloudflare CEO wrote in a blog post.

 

https://www.cnn.com/2019/08/04/tech/cloudflare-8chan/index.html

[B-Man]

 

 

WHAT IS TO BE DONE?

by Stephen Hayward

 

Two more mass shootings, but Twitter is on it! And I am sure Twitter will bring out the best in everyone as it always does, and produce consensus solutions by tomorrow morning.

 

As Glenn Reynolds reminds us every time there is a shooting, initial media reports are often wrong and usually incomplete, but the first media themes often take hold and are hard to dislodge later. (The most persistent is one of the oldest—that JFK was killed because of a “climate of hate” in Dallas, whereas the actual killer was a devoted Communist.)

 

So here’s one suggestion I’ve made before: if the media really want to help stanch the contagion of politicized mass shootings, stop publishing the manifestos these nutcases put out. The El Paso shooter apparently (I’m not going to read the thing) referenced the manifesto of the recent New Zealand shooter.

 

The mish-mash of themes (anti-immigration along with environmental Malthusianism??) that have appeared in these disturbed rantings seem deliberately calculated to spark a futile debate over which political faction “owns” the shooter. So instead of mourning we just yell louder. You’d almost suspect these manifestos of being a Russian operation. I see that Beto O’Rourke wasted no time in blaming President Trump and Fox News, just as Bill Clinton blamed Rush Limbaugh for the Oklahoma City bombing back in 1995.

 

Could this work? Probably not. With the open-access internet, trying to suppress these manifestos would make wack-a-mole look easy. On the other hand, when TV networks stopped televising people who run onto the field at major league baseball and NFL games, fewer people did it. It couldn’t hurt for CNN to give it a try.

 

https://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2019/08/what-is-to-be-done-9.php

 

 

[MILFHUNTER#518]

1 hour ago, jrober38 said:

 

Agreed. 

 

Banning things will never work. But making it harder to access weapons should be the goal.

 

It shouldn't be an inconvenience for someone to take a course, get vetted and prove that they're actually a responsible gun owner. If the trade off is making people safer, how can that not be something everything is on board with? 

 

If you have to get licensed to drive a car, why should you not have to get licensed to own firearms?

Driving a car is a privilege, not a constitutional right.

[Tiberius]

wow 

 

Murdoch-Owned New York Post To Trump: Ban Assault Weapons Now

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

10 hours ago, Hedge said:

 

I would assume that the systematic shuttering of mental institutions, along with the rise of those taking (or needing) behavior modification drugs plays a large part. I have no idea what is going in other countries in those regards.

 

 

...helluva good point..........