Bills coaches want to move on from training staff, FO dysfunction

[Rico]

As far as who's concerned? Russ?

Per Team Ralph. Seeing as he is their superior, Russ would be the one to keep them in line, following the chain-of-command.

[Beerball]

All based on the word of Tim Graham, huh?

How did you get to this point? Unless you think that Graham made up the stories (training staff & unholy trio) the ball is in Brandon's court. He either does something or he does nothing. Let's not blame the Bills mess on Graham.

[NoSaint]

How did you get to this point? Unless you think that Graham made up the stories (training staff & unholy trio) the ball is in Brandon's court. He either does something or he does nothing. Let's not blame the Bills mess on Graham.

 

though we may find the extent of the mess is overstated by Graham, who does like to stir the pot (or a source with something to gain).

[YoloinOhio]

The two Doug's work for him, so he has to support them as much as a superior can. Ultimately though, this is still Ralph's team, he still gets his marching orders from Ralph, and the bottom-line constraints that have been put into place by Ralph still have to be met. There is absolutely no way that Ralph gave him carte blanche to do as he pleases.

My point was just that he can work to create a different environment in which the two sides can work together, even having the old vs. new mentality. He may not have the authority to fire them, but as the CEO, does he not have the authority to structure their working relationships so that expectations are clear wtr the outcome everyone wants? To win? And if there are perceived roadblocks in place that Whaley and Marrone feel are going to impact that, as far it pertains to Overdorf/Littman, how can it be adjusted. Or is it a situation where Russ can't even talk to these guys about anything, he has to be completely hands off on what they do?

[BillsVet]

All based on the word of Tim Graham, huh?

 

No one's refuted the report yet. Who is silent is seen to consent.

 

At least the 49ers lied when it was reported there was discussion of Harbaugh going to Cleveland.

[BADOLBILZ]

All based on the word of Tim Graham, huh?

 

You guys are embarrassing yourselves with the Graham bashing at this point.

 

He's doing his job.

 

The entire premise of the Graham bashing is this idea that he is too critical........veiled under the guise of him being "unprofessional".

 

The bottom line is that the Bills aren't committed to winning.......and that is ultimately the basis of a healthy relationship between a team and it's fanbase.

 

But by all means, keep shooting the messenger.

[Rico]

My point was just that he can work to create a different environment in which the two sides can work together, even having the old vs. new mentality. He may not have the authority to fire them, but as the CEO, does he not have the authority to structure their working relationships so that expectations are clear wtr the outcome everyone wants? To win? And if there are perceived roadblocks in place that Whaley and Marrone feel are going to impact that, as far it pertains to Overdorf/Littman, how can it be adjusted. Or is it a situation where Russ can't even talk to these guys about anything, he has to be completely hands off on what they do?

I'm sure that Brandon and the other 2 are in constant communication. Just as in any other organization, sometimes you have to go to bat for something you believe in, and if Russ can convince the other members of Team Ralph that what he wants to do ultimately falls in line with the established best interests of Ralph, then Russ will get his way.

[sodbuster]

 

 

As you might expect: http://www.walshcollege.edu/jeffreylittmann#.Uw0A-ONdU24

I was expecting a peter pan link.

[Rico]

You guys are embarrassing yourselves with the Graham bashing at this point.

 

He's doing his job.

 

The entire premise of the Graham bashing is this idea that he is too critical........veiled under the guise of him being "unprofessional".

 

The bottom line is that the Bills aren't committed to winning.......and that is ultimately the basis of a healthy relationship between a team and it's fanbase.

 

But by all means, keep shooting the messenger.

Yes, Graham has a job to do... so do the Bills Shills.

[NoSaint]

 

 

No one's refuted the report yet. Who is silent is seen to consent.

 

At least the 49ers lied when it was reported there was discussion of Harbaugh going to Cleveland.

 

just as quickly you would see people saying they wouldnt even acknowledge it if it wasnt atleast partially true.

 

 

 

You guys are embarrassing yourselves with the Graham bashing at this point.

 

He's doing his job.

 

The entire premise of the Graham bashing is this idea that he is too critical........veiled under the guise of him being "unprofessional".

 

The bottom line is that the Bills aren't committed to winning.......and that is ultimately the basis of a healthy relationship between a team and it's fanbase.

 

But by all means, keep shooting the messenger.

 

the problem is that even if graham gets some right, he legitimately is unprofessional on a regular basis which opens the door to questions over what is legit journalism, and what is graham being a fool. unfortunately for all of us, he opened that debate with his behavior.

[The Big Cat]

just as quickly you would see people saying they wouldnt even acknowledge it if it wasnt atleast partially true.

 

 

 

the problem is that even if graham gets some right, he legitimately is unprofessional on a regular basis which opens the door to questions over what is legit journalism, and what is graham being a fool. unfortunately for all of us, he opened that debate with his behavior.

 

plus he seems to live to press the buttons of Bills fans.

 

for all we know, this could be mostly true, but wildly overstated. could be the worst kept secret in and among those close to the team (reporters included), Timmah may have just pumped it up to stimulate the fan base.

 

either way, he's winning.

[PromoTheRobot]

You guys are embarrassing yourselves with the Graham bashing at this point.

 

He's doing his job.

 

The entire premise of the Graham bashing is this idea that he is too critical........veiled under the guise of him being "unprofessional".

 

The bottom line is that the Bills aren't committed to winning.......and that is ultimately the basis of a healthy relationship between a team and it's fanbase.

 

But by all means, keep shooting the messenger.

 

Credibility is important for a reporter so I don't understand why Graham pisses it away with his stupid Twitter flame wars. That people don't trust Graham on this is hardly a surprise.

[The Big Cat]

Credibility is important for a reporter so I don't understand why Graham pisses it away with his stupid Twitter flame wars. That people don't trust Graham on this is hardly a surprise.

 

and i'm not completely sold on the story being false...but he's the only one reporting it...

[TXBILLSFAN]

My point was just that he can work to create a different environment in which the two sides can work together, even having the old vs. new mentality. He may not have the authority to fire them, but as the CEO, does he not have the authority to structure their working relationships so that expectations are clear wtr the outcome everyone wants? To win? And if there are perceived roadblocks in place that Whaley and Marrone feel are going to impact that, as far it pertains to Overdorf/Littman, how can it be adjusted. Or is it a situation where Russ can't even talk to these guys about anything, he has to be completely hands off on what they do?

You are describing a functional corporate structure which is what successful teams have. At this point I'm not sure Brandon has the authority he claimed to have at his press conference. I always suspected he was unqualified for the position, but maybe he also oversold his promotion as more than it really was. As some have said, the proof will be in the actions, not the words, including those of Graham.

[Like A Mofo]

You guys are embarrassing yourselves with the Graham bashing at this point.

 

He's doing his job.

 

The entire premise of the Graham bashing is this idea that he is too critical........veiled under the guise of him being "unprofessional".

 

The bottom line is that the Bills aren't committed to winning.......and that is ultimately the basis of a healthy relationship between a team and it's fanbase.

 

But by all means, keep shooting the messenger.

 

It's just some Bills fans living in denial, for whatever reason. Graham is probably more on the right side of this then not, the Graham hate stems from a thread awhile back and that has not gone away. The results are there over the years with these two. Littman and Overdorf are toxic and NOTHING will change until they are gone.

[Dawgg]

That makes no sense...if Brandon wanted things done the way the old guard always did them, he could very easily have made that clear in order to avoid any issues down the road. If he wanted a "fall in line" candidate, he could've had one. He knew Marrone and knew his personality--he's not a "fall in line" kind of guy.

 

Instead, he promoted Whaley and (with Nix's help) let him choose the coach and run the team his way.

Makes plenty of sense. Nobody said Russ wants the team to be run the "old guard way." I simply stated that Russ has a delicate balance -- he has to select a coach and GM but is not powerful enough to get rid (or control) the old guard, which has been employed by the franchise for decades. Not to mention, Russ has a pretty sweet gig. He's probably making between $5M and $10M a year as the caretaker of the franchise. Is he going to rock the boat by demanding the ouster of Ralph's most trusted lieutenants? Doubtful. Therein lies the dysfunction that is the Buffalo Bills

[Buftex]

You guys are embarrassing yourselves with the Graham bashing at this point.

 

He's doing his job.

 

The entire premise of the Graham bashing is this idea that he is too critical........veiled under the guise of him being "unprofessional".

 

The bottom line is that the Bills aren't committed to winning.......and that is ultimately the basis of a healthy relationship between a team and it's fanbase.

 

But by all means, keep shooting the messenger.

 

 

I am glad somebody else said this. Over the years here, I see posters constantly bashing the "lightweight WNY media", but then, when there is some story like this, that isn't so flattering about our team, we attack the messenger...

 

I am not as down on the Bills current FO as some here appear to be, but I have little doubt that friction exists there. I would be shocked if there isn't friction that exists, like what Graham is reporting, with every pro sports team.

[thebandit27]

How did you get to this point? Unless you think that Graham made up the stories (training staff & unholy trio) the ball is in Brandon's court. He either does something or he does nothing. Let's not blame the Bills mess on Graham.

 

Again I say that it's hard to take his stories at face value when many of his reports are extrapolated from direct quotes that speak nothing to the crux of the story (see his Byrd articles).

 

I'm not bashing anyone--I'm simply saying that this mass reaction is all based on an anonymous Tim Graham report that could be anywhere from wholly true to grossly over exaggerated.

[NoSaint]

 

 

 

I am glad somebody else said this. Over the years here, I see posters constantly bashing the "lightweight WNY media", but then, when there is some story like this, that isn't so flattering about our team, we attack the messenger...

 

I am not as down on the Bills current FO as some here appear to be, but I have little doubt that friction exists there. I would be shocked if there isn't friction that exists, like what Graham is reporting, with every pro sports team.

 

To be fair the "attacking" isn't that he wrote this story- it's that he's wrote so much nonsense in the past that it makes a good story like this could be, somewhat hazier.

 

If he was always the height of professionalism, 7 days a week, 365 days a year, this story would come with a lot more weight but because he isn't professional so often.... Well... It comes across as a legit story, but from a damaged writer.

Edited February 26, 2014 by NoSaint

[thebandit27]

 

 

You guys are embarrassing yourselves with the Graham bashing at this point.

 

He's doing his job.

 

The entire premise of the Graham bashing is this idea that he is too critical........veiled under the guise of him being "unprofessional".

 

The bottom line is that the Bills aren't committed to winning.......and that is ultimately the basis of a healthy relationship between a team and it's fanbase.

 

But by all means, keep shooting the messenger.

 

By all means feel free to show me where I "shot the messenger" by asking if this was all wrought from Tim's report

 

 

 

To be fair the "attacking" isn't that he wrote this story- it's that he's wrote so much nonsense in the past that it makes a good story like this could be, somewhat hazier.

 

If he was always the height of professionalism, 7 days a week, 365 days a year, this story would come with a lot more weight but because he isn't professional so often.... Well... It comes across as a legit story, but from a damaged writer.

 

Thank you for stating the point more concisely than I did

[YoloinOhio]

I am glad somebody else said this. Over the years here, I see posters constantly bashing the "lightweight WNY media", but then, when there is some story like this, that isn't so flattering about our team, we attack the messenger...

 

I am not as down on the Bills current FO as some here appear to be, but I have little doubt that friction exists there. I would be shocked if there isn't friction that exists, like what Graham is reporting, with every pro sports team.

While I have little insight into the current Bills FO, I do have some into others in the NFL and this is completely fair. Winning organizations and losing organizations both have issues when you peel back the curtain. I have no issue with Graham reporting on what he learned from his sources, but I don't think it is the reason why the Bills win or lose. Is it a factor in Marrone and Whaley trying to change the culture? IMO, very likely - but came to a head with the Byrd contract. I think Whaley feels the deal can be done and Overdorf is putting a cap on the amount they can spend which is going to lead to a tag and publically that falls right on Whaley, That doesn't mean they haven't spent on FAs and coaches, as they clearly have. This signing would send a huge message that Marrone and Whaley want to send... but sounds like they are meeting resistance and they are feeling stymied. While this may seem like doom, it happens in all teams that contracts want to be done by the GM or the coach and they don't have the final say. it just so happens that many teams don't need to "send a message" with a FA signing... and therefore it doesn't get blown up in the media over frustration. It is my belief and in line with my earlier comments that it is not a question of whether friction exists, but how it is managed. I don't know what Russ ultimately can accomplish, but I have to believe he is concerned enough to at least make a run at the issue.As others have mentioned, the previous coaches may not have challenged it. Now it is being challenged, it is in Russ's court to make enough changes (they don't need to be huge, sweeping changes) to help the new guys feel they can, indeed, win. Edited February 26, 2014 by YoloinOhio

[Coach Tuesday]

While I have little insight into the current Bills FO, I do have some into others in the NFL and this is completely fair. Winning organizations and losing organizations both have issues when you peel back the curtain. I have no issue with Graham reporting on what he learned from his sources, but I don't think it is the reason why the Bills win or lose. Is it a factor in Marrone and Whaley trying to change the culture? IMO, very likely - but came to a head with the Byrd contract. I think Whaley feels the deal can be done and Overdorf is putting a cap on the amount they can spend which is going to lead to a tag and publically that falls right on Whaley, That doesn't mean they haven't spent on FAs and coaches, as they clearly have. This signing would send a huge message that Marrone and Whaley want to send... but sounds like they are meeting resistance and they are feeling stymied. While this may seem like doom, it happens in all teams that contracts want to be done by the GM or the coach and they don't have the final say. itr just so happens that many teams don't need to "send a message" with a FA signing... and therefore it doesn't get blown up in the media over frustration. It is my belief and in line with my earlier comments that it is not a question of whether friction exists, but how it is managed. I don;t know what Russ ultimately can accomplish, but I have to believe he is concerned enough to at least make a run at the issue.

 

Very good post.

[bbb]

Does anybody have the organizational chart for the Bills?

[YoloinOhio]

This lists the position titles but not duties... each NFL FO operates slightly differently so it is hard to determine where there may be dotted lines...

 

http://www.buffalobills.com/about-us/front-office.html

 

Does anybody have the organizational chart for the Bills?

[bbb]

Yeah, we need the dotted lines. I don't know if they know where they are.

 

To be fair the "attacking" isn't that he wrote this story- it's that he's wrote so much nonsense in the past that it makes a good story like this could be, somewhat hazier.

 

If he was always the height of professionalism, 7 days a week, 365 days a year, this story would come with a lot more weight but because he isn't professional so often.... Well... It comes across as a legit story, but from a damaged writer.

 

This.

[TXBILLSFAN]

Does anybody have the organizational chart for the Bills?

That's what I asked for a few pages back -- an understanding of roles and responsibilities and most importantly decision rights for members of the FO ---

[Buftex]

This lists the position titles but not duties... each NFL FO operates slightly differently so it is hard to determine where there may be dotted lines...

 

http://www.buffalobi...ont-office.html

 

I "know" somebody on that list, or moreover, a sibling of somebody on that list. This person would be considered one of the "greybeards" no doubt...been there since before the Super Bowl days.... I will say, I used to get some pretty juicy tidbits of insider info...more just stuff about personalities and relationships between folks there...not so for the last 2 years or so...

Edited February 26, 2014 by Buftex

[Rubes]

I "know" somebody on that list, or moreover, a sibling of somebody on that list. This person would be considered one of the "greybeards" no doubt...been there since before the Super Bowl days.... I will say, I used to get some pretty juicy tidbits of insider info...more just stuff about personalities and relationships between folks there...not so for the last 2 years or so...

 

Is that implying something?

[Buftex]

Is that implying something?

 

Sort of... though I am not sure exactly what.

[NoSaint]

 

 

Sort of... though I am not sure exactly what.

 

2 years is an odd demarcation as it would be the final year with gailey/nix. If the estimate is accurate, I'm not sure what the corresponding change organizationally would be

[Sisyphean Bills]

and i'm not completely sold on the story being false...but he's the only one reporting it...

 

This is true and not true. Graham is the only one reporting the current struggles between the old guard and the current Whaley/Marrone football side of the house. But it is wrong to imply this is the very first time this sort of news has come out. Do you remember Buddy's explanation of the Lee Evans trade? In a word, weirdness. The guy with the title of GM mentioning that he wasn't really part of the trade, didn't know the details, and there were things he couldn't discuss. Mike Mularkey quit, stating that the team wasn't structured in a way for him to succeed. The last guy to get Ralph's keys to the organization, Tom Donahoe, reportedly went on at great length about the restrictions and limitations that were imposed that made his job impossible. It goes on, but this is not the first whiff of smoke here.

[Beerball]

Does anybody have the organizational chart for the Bills?

 

[Fan in San Diego]

This is true and not true. Graham is the only one reporting the current struggles between the old guard and the current Whaley/Marrone football side of the house. But it is wrong to imply this is the very first time this sort of news has come out. Do you remember Buddy's explanation of the Lee Evans trade? In a word, weirdness. The guy with the title of GM mentioning that he wasn't really part of the trade, didn't know the details, and there were things he couldn't discuss. Mike Mularkey quit, stating that the team wasn't structured in a way for him to succeed. The last guy to get Ralph's keys to the organization, Tom Donahoe, reportedly went on at great length about the restrictions and limitations that were imposed that made his job impossible. It goes on, but this is not the first whiff of smoke here.

 

We need a new owner to clean out the FO deadwood.

[uncle flap]

and i'm not completely sold on the story being false...but he's the only one reporting it...

 

Whats weird is that it hasnt been mentioned on wgr - you know, the official station of the Bills.

 

Someone asked Jeremy White via twitter why it wasn't and his reply was that he didn't think it was that interesting to fans. Really? Because there's a huge thread here, nearly 40 pages on the bills message board, and people discussing it all over twitter.

 

White also said its basically a "he said, she said" scenario. Uh, even if it was 100% corroborated, the essence of the story is still "he said, she said." That is, true or not, it boils down to Whaley/Marrone saying, "I can't do my job" with Littman/Overdorf saying, "Yes, you can."

 

I know Murph is a paid shill going on about Byrd not being a difference maker, but that's during the Bills paid program. I would expect Joe B and the rest to be a little more objective. Just today or yesterday Joe B was talking about how they can't afford Byrd and Aaron Williams. Sure they can. The cap situation looks great for the foreseeable future, and if things change, well, then cross that bridge when they come to it. I understand philosophically not wanting to tie up say $15 million/yr on two safeties, but if you can afford to do so - as the Bills can, why not?

 

I mean the morning show has them going on and on about all sorts of hypotheticals and pie in the sky trade proposals but they don't even mention a sourced story about their arguably #1 draw? Something's fishy.

Edited February 26, 2014 by uncle flap

[KOKBILLS]

Whats weird is that it hasnt been mentioned on wgr - you know, the official station of the Bills.

 

Someone asked Jeremy White via twitter why it wasn't and his reply was that he didn't think it was that interesting to fans. Really? Because there's a huge thread here, nearly 40 pages on the bills message board, and people discussing it all over twitter.

 

White also said its basically a "he said, she said" scenario. Uh, even if it was 100% corroborated, the essence of the story is still "he said, she said." That is, true or not, it boils down to Whaley/Marrone saying, "I can't do my job" with Littman/Overdorf saying, "Yes, you can."

 

Wow...I can't believe Jeremy said that because he's a pretty major follower of this team...I can't see how any Bills fan would not be at least a little interested in this story if it's all true...I think the die-hard fans, like the one's that listen to sports talk radio, would be ultra-interested...I know I'm a bit more fanatical than most Bills fans...To me this is an absolutely HUGE story...Again if in fact it is true...I think it strikes at the heart of what many Bills fans fear most about this organization...That it's permanently mired in the corporate mediocrity created by it's owner years ago...And that it's that mediocrity keeping the Bills from fielding a winning team, and building a culture of excellence...But maybe that's just me...

Edited February 26, 2014 by KOKBILLS

[uncle flap]

Wow...I can't believe Jeremy said that because he's a pretty major follower of this team...I can't see how any Bills fan would not be at least a little interested in this story if it's all true...I think the die-hard fans, like the one's that listen to sports talk radio, would be ultra-interested...I know I'm a bit more fanatical than most Bills fans...To me this is an absolutely HUGE story...Again if in fact it is true...I think it strikes at the heart of what many Bills fans fear most about this organization...That it's permanently mired in the corporate mediocrity created by it's owner years ago...And that it's that mediocrity keeping the Bills from fielding a winning team, and building a culture of excellence...But maybe that's just me...

 

You can read the exchange here:

[KOKBILLS]

You can read the exchange here: http://twitter.com/J...271796215693313

 

Interesting...

 

Still think they should at least touch on it and say that sources told them it was bunk...

[The Big Cat]

 

 

Whats weird is that it hasnt been mentioned on wgr - you know, the official station of the Bills.

 

Someone asked Jeremy White via twitter why it wasn't and his reply was that he didn't think it was that interesting to fans. Really? Because there's a huge thread here, nearly 40 pages on the bills message board, and people discussing it all over twitter.

 

White also said its basically a "he said, she said" scenario. Uh, even if it was 100% corroborated, the essence of the story is still "he said, she said." That is, true or not, it boils down to Whaley/Marrone saying, "I can't do my job" with Littman/Overdorf saying, "Yes, you can."

 

I know Murph is a paid shill going on about Byrd not being a difference maker, but that's during the Bills paid program. I would expect Joe B and the rest to be a little more objective. Just today or yesterday Joe B was talking about how they can't afford Byrd and Aaron Williams. Sure they can. The cap situation looks great for the foreseeable future, and if things change, well, then cross that bridge when they come to it. I understand philosophically not wanting to tie up say $15 million/yr on two safeties, but if you can afford to do so - as the Bills can, why not?

 

I mean the morning show has them going on and on about all sorts of hypotheticals and pie in the sky trade proposals but they don't even mention a sourced story about their arguably #1 draw? Something's fishy.

 

Kinda corroborates my initial inclination (only because it was a TG story): his report is shades of trumped-up truths, skillfully elusive of any outright, demonstrative statement that would pin TG to an otherwise lie.

 

Perhaps the implicit mountain is but mole hill, after all.

 

Or...may be GR is avoiding it because TG tripped up a forthcoming announcement.

 

IMO, either of these scenarios are just as plausible as Littman/Overdorff being the cuffs that bind Russ to the pipe.

[bbb]

 

LOL - this is actually the kind of answer I was looking for when asking the question.

[BillsVet]

Kinda corroborates my initial inclination (only because it was a TG story): his report is shades of trumped-up truths, skillfully elusive of any outright, demonstrative statement that would pin TG to an otherwise lie.

 

Perhaps the implicit mountain is but mole hill, after all.

 

Or...may be GR is avoiding it because TG tripped up a forthcoming announcement.

 

IMO, either of these scenarios are just as plausible as Littman/Overdorff being the cuffs that bind Russ to the pipe.

 

I find it ironic that those who support all things Bills and never criticize the organization still prefer to support senior management and not the coaching staff/personnel department in this issue. But, I guess the best away to avoid a report which strikes at the heart of what some believe is to merely disregard it as "trumped-up truths" from a writer we don't like.

 

I would think the football people who get paid to, you know, win football games would be the side selected by those fans who believe in all things Bills.