BuffaloBillsForever Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 No...both big returns occurred in the first half. Special Teams played virtually no role in the comeback, as the Bills had taken the lead long after the two returns. Ahh that's right. Special teams played a critical role in the Browns comeback. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 No...both big returns occurred in the first half. Special Teams played virtually no role in the comeback, as the Bills had taken the lead long after the two returns. though they did help keep them close enough that they could come back Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoloinOhio Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 though they did help keep them close enough that they could come back I like Pettine a lot. He has made huge strides with this defense and I think it will only get better. But I disagree when people say he is the only good part of this coaching staff and if he leaves Marrone will be exposed. There are at least 3 games that come to mind where the offense scored enough points to where we should have won, and the defense let us down. Cincy, ATL, Jets part 1. Arguably Pats* part 1 and 2. I think he is a very good DC. I would caution to say that the Bills fall apart without him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebandit27 Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 Oh, and for the record: http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/football/scouts-geno-best-weak-crop-article-1.1320688 "E.J. Manuel, a shaky pick a few weeks ago, could sneak into the first round as well." http://www.rotoworld.com/recent/cfb/128554/ej-manuel Former NFL Scout Russ Lande feels comfortable charting FSU QB E.J. Manuel as a late first or early second-round prospect. http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2013/04/florida_state_qb_ej_manuel_get.html NFL Network's Mike Mayock has been so impressed with Manuel that he could see him going No. 4 to the Eagles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 Consensus for who? And more importantly when?... The Draft process takes time. After the 2012 College season EJ was considered a 3rd -4th round prospect, but things quickly changed starting with the Sr Bowl practices...Scouts realized really quick that EJ had a ton of potential to go along with his athletic ability...Then the Combine workouts and interviews where EJ really, really impressed...Then the private workout where EJ showed well...It was a weak QB class in 2013 anyway, so it's easy to see why EJ flew to the top...I would say by the time the Draft came about the consensus was that EJ would go somewhere between the mid 1st and mid 2nd...Granted some scouts still felt EJ was a 3rd-4th round pick...But by the time the whole process was complete those scouts were in the minority... I can't speak for every scout out there, but having a sense of how collaborative the scouting process can be, as well as a ton of trust in a couple of guys that I've known forever, I can say with confidence that EJ Manuel was projected as a late 1st, early 2nd round pick in the days leading up to the draft. GO BILLS!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebandit27 Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 Ahh that's right. Special teams played a critical role in the Browns comeback. Thanks for showing me that you have no interest in any discussion whatsoever; sorry for wasting my time. I can't speak for every scout out there, but having a sense of how collaborative the scouting process can be, as well as a ton of trust in a couple of guys that I've known forever, I can say with confidence that EJ Manuel was projected as a late 1st, early 2nd round pick in the days leading up to the draft. GO BILLS!!! That's my understanding as well...a friend of mine that is an area scout tells me his team had a late 1st grade on EJ as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 I like Pettine a lot. He has made huge strides with this defense and I think it will only get better. But I disagree when people say he is the only good part of this coaching staff and if he leaves Marrone will be exposed. There are at least 3 games that come to mind where the offense scored enough points to where we should have won, and the defense let us down. Cincy, ATL, Jets part 1. Arguably Pats* part 1 and 2. I think he is a very good DC. I would caution to say that the Bills fall apart without him. Let me first say that I would prefer to keep Pettine, obviously. But if he goes, look for the Bills to immediately promote Donnie Henderson who has a TON of experience in Pettine's system going back to his days with the Ravens. Indeed, we might even see a bidding war between the Browns and Bills for Henderson's services should Pettine get the job. If it SHOULD happen that the Bills lose both in a worst case scenario, I'd be all over Ray Horton in a heartbeat. GO BILLS!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qblax16 Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 Best Coach on the staff is probably on the way out... Let me first say that I would prefer to keep Pettine, obviously. But if he goes, look for the Bills to immediately promote Donnie Henderson who has a TON of experience in Pettine's system going back to his days with the Ravens. Indeed, we might even see a bidding war between the Browns and Bills for Henderson's services should Pettine get the job. If it SHOULD happen that the Bills lose both in a worst case scenario, I'd be all over Ray Horton in a heartbeat. GO BILLS!!! Hate to say this but Pettite needs a staff, why would he wouldn't Pettite bring him to the Browns too? It could really hurt the bills def coaches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloBillsForever Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 (edited) Oh, and for the record: http://www.nydailyne...ticle-1.1320688 "E.J. Manuel, a shaky pick a few weeks ago, could sneak into the first round as well." http://www.rotoworld...28554/ej-manuel Former NFL Scout Russ Lande feels comfortable charting FSU QB E.J. Manuel as a late first or early second-round prospect. http://www.cleveland...manuel_get.html NFL Network's Mike Mayock has been so impressed with Manuel that he could see him going No. 4 to the Eagles. A direct quote from kiper after the draft which contradicts your nonsense. "Kiper gave the Bills a "D" for value. Unsurprisingly, quarterback E.J. Manuel was the sticking point. Kiper liked the move to trade down in the first round, but still didn't think Manuel was worth the No. 16 overall pick. The bad is I just think the No. 16 pick was way too high for EJ Manuel. For me, there's simply too much projection here. He needs to prove that he's capable of getting through progressions quicker and getting the ball out. He was my No. 6-ranked QB. But that was a need position, and you take the guy you feel can pan out. It's just remarkable in hindsight to see the top QBs still available into Round 4." Don't let the facts get in your way. Edited January 16, 2014 by BuffaloBillsForever Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 Best Coach on the staff is probably on the way out... Hate to say this but Pettite needs a staff, why would he wouldn't Pettite bring him to the Browns too? It could really hurt the bills def coaches. I'm sure Pettine WOULD try to pry Henderson away. The Bills can prevent that though. The Bills have a decent core of personnel on defense with a year in the system under their belts and a trajectory of improvement that started in the second half of last season. Henderson wouldn't miss a beat I think. GO BILLS!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Biscuit97 Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 A direct quote from Mayock after the draft which contradicts your nonsense. "Kiper gave the Bills a "D" for value. Unsurprisingly, quarterback E.J. Manuel was the sticking point. Kiper liked the move to trade down in the first round, but still didn't think Manuel was worth the No. 16 overall pick. The bad is I just think the No. 16 pick was way too high for EJ Manuel. For me, there's simply too much projection here. He needs to prove that he's capable of getting through progressions quicker and getting the ball out. He was my No. 6-ranked QB. But that was a need position, and you take the guy you feel can pan out. It's just remarkable in hindsight to see the top QBs still available into Round 4." Don't let the facts get in your way. How is what Mel Kiper (never played/ coached/ administration on any level of football & just went to community college) said fact? It's an opinion. Kiper also said Jimmy Clausen should be a first round pick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloBillsForever Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 (edited) How is what Mel Kiper (never played/ coached/ administration on any level of football & just went to community college) said fact? It's an opinion. Kiper also said Jimmy Clausen should be a first round pick. It's because there were posters saying that pundits had Manuel graded in the 1st round....utter nonsense. Edited January 16, 2014 by BuffaloBillsForever Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 A direct quote from Mayock after the draft which contradicts your nonsense. "Kiper gave the Bills a "D" for value. Unsurprisingly, quarterback E.J. Manuel was the sticking point. Kiper liked the move to trade down in the first round, but still didn't think Manuel was worth the No. 16 overall pick. The bad is I just think the No. 16 pick was way too high for EJ Manuel. For me, there's simply too much projection here. He needs to prove that he's capable of getting through progressions quicker and getting the ball out. He was my No. 6-ranked QB. But that was a need position, and you take the guy you feel can pan out. It's just remarkable in hindsight to see the top QBs still available into Round 4." Don't let the facts get in your way. Is Kiper talking about Nassib and Barkley when he mentions "in hindsight...top QBs still available in Round 4?" Gotta love Mel "Cordy Glenn will never be a left tackle in the NFL" Kiper. GO BILLS!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoloinOhio Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 A direct quote from Mayock after the draft which contradicts your nonsense. "Kiper gave the Bills a "D" for value. Unsurprisingly, quarterback E.J. Manuel was the sticking point. Kiper liked the move to trade down in the first round, but still didn't think Manuel was worth the No. 16 overall pick. The bad is I just think the No. 16 pick was way too high for EJ Manuel. For me, there's simply too much projection here. He needs to prove that he's capable of getting through progressions quicker and getting the ball out. He was my No. 6-ranked QB. But that was a need position, and you take the guy you feel can pan out. It's just remarkable in hindsight to see the top QBs still available into Round 4." Don't let the facts get in your way. Barkley? Nassib? If he thinks these are top QBs... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TXBILLSFAN Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 On EJ's draft value -- you have to consider the entire 2013 QB draft class -- all guys had big question marks -- no consensus 1st rounders and no consensus #1 QB --- it was an off year for QB's --- what the Bills did, made a lot of sense -- they wanted their pick of the QB group -- they rolled the dice and traded down ONCE and still got their choice --- we can debate whether they could have traded down again and added another 2nd or 3rd, I think they could have --- as for where EJ was rated --- most of what I saw said late 1st through late 3rd ---- same for all the other QB's --- it was a WEAK QB draft going in ---- unless EJ turns out to be "the guy"; Nix's biggest blunder was waiting until 2013 to draft a QB and not taking one in 2011 or 2012 ---- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloBillsForever Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 (edited) Is Kiper talking about Nassib and Barkley when he mentions "in hindsight...top QBs still available in Round 4?" Gotta love Mel "Cordy Glenn will never be a left tackle in the NFL" Kiper. GO BILLS!!! Haha, kiper thought the Alonzo pick was a reach too. I remember Kiper saying that about Glenn. My whole argument is the ej pick still lacked value even after the tradedown. Edited January 16, 2014 by BuffaloBillsForever Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MDH Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 It's because there were posters saying that pundits had Manuel graded in the 1st round....utter nonsense. So now Kiper represents all pundits? Okay. The poster quoted several sources stating the opposite but because Kiper didn't agree what the poster said was "utter nonsense?" I guess in your worldview Kiper is the end all be it when it comes to draft and the "consensus" is whatever he says. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TXBILLSFAN Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 Haha, kiper thought the Alonzo pick was a reach too. I remember Kiper saying that about Glenn. My whole argument is the ej pick still lacked value even after the tradedown. Is there a website that does a post-mortem on the draft analysis done by Kiper, Mayock and McShay ? --- I know their are post-mortems 1-2-3-4 years after drafts on how the teams really did --- but has anyone graded the so-called draft experts ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 It's because there were posters saying that pundits had Manuel graded in the 1st round....utter nonsense. Just to be clear, I'm not quoting the talking head "pundits" and other draftniks. I'm referencing actual input from long time professional football scouts. None of whom are friends with player agents they wouldn't be caught dead shilling for, btw. GO BILLS!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoloinOhio Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 How is what Mel Kiper (never played/ coached/ administration on any level of football & just went to community college) said fact? It's an opinion. Kiper also said Jimmy Clausen should be a first round pick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rubes Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 So much for the Pettine discussion... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebandit27 Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 A direct quote from kiper after the draft which contradicts your nonsense. "Kiper gave the Bills a "D" for value. Unsurprisingly, quarterback E.J. Manuel was the sticking point. Kiper liked the move to trade down in the first round, but still didn't think Manuel was worth the No. 16 overall pick. The bad is I just think the No. 16 pick was way too high for EJ Manuel. For me, there's simply too much projection here. He needs to prove that he's capable of getting through progressions quicker and getting the ball out. He was my No. 6-ranked QB. But that was a need position, and you take the guy you feel can pan out. It's just remarkable in hindsight to see the top QBs still available into Round 4." Don't let the facts get in your way. You continue to amaze me...I refuted your statement that "EJ was a consensus 3rd round pick or worse" by telling you that Mayock said on the day of the draft that EJ would go in the first. I also linked an article where he basically says the same thing...I then continued to provide links to show you that EJ was by no means "a consensus 3rd round pick or worse". Your response to me is to tell me that Kiper gave the Bills' draft a D because of the Manuel pick? And I'm the one touting "nonsense"? I think we're done here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 Haha, kiper thought the Alonzo pick was a reach too. I remember Kiper saying that about Glenn. My whole argument is the ej pick still lacked value even after the tradedown. Value is a relative term largely manufactured by the draftnik industry. When scouts talk of value they are talking about guys taken well after their projected grades indicate. Some may argue Manuel was a "reach" but not anyone that had him pegged in the late first. Depending on how a draft is falling relative to your draft board, if you feel your guy is there, you take him. That's just not considered reaching so much as securing your player. GO BILLS!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebandit27 Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 So much for the Pettine discussion... Yes, let's please get back to Pettine...I promise I won't respond to the other poster any more...sorry. Regarding Pettine, I don't blame Cleveland for interviewing him...just looking at what he did in comparison to the defense the team had in 2012 tells you all you need to know: he can get a lot out of good personnel. If he goes, I'll wish him well...I hope he stays though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoloinOhio Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 Value is a relative term largely manufactured by the draftnik industry. When scouts talk of value they are talking about guys taken well after their projected grades indicate. Some may argue Manuel was a "reach" but not anyone that had him pegged in the late first. Depending on how a draft is falling relative to your draft board, if you feel your guy is there, you take him. That's just not considered reaching so much as securing your player. GO BILLS!!! Exactly. What does "value" mean from your 1st rd pick if you also get a UDFA who is starting (Robey), a ROY in the 2nd and 2 contributing WRs in the 2nd and 3rd? Dee Milliner was considered good "value" where the Jets took him but royally sucked and got benched. Where's the value now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloBillsForever Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 So now Kiper represents all pundits? Okay. The poster quoted several sources stating the opposite but because Kiper didn't agree what the poster said was "utter nonsense?" I guess in your worldview Kiper is the end all be it when it comes to draft and the "consensus" is whatever he says. I haven't seen anything from Mayock that he graded Manuel as a 1st round talent. Just that Mayock thinks in terms of needs a team might reach for him in the 1st which the Bills did. They are two different things. But yeah lets get back to the Pettine discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 A direct quote from kiper after the draft which contradicts your nonsense. "Kiper gave the Bills a "D" for value. Unsurprisingly, quarterback E.J. Manuel was the sticking point. Kiper liked the move to trade down in the first round, but still didn't think Manuel was worth the No. 16 overall pick. The bad is I just think the No. 16 pick was way too high for EJ Manuel. For me, there's simply too much projection here. He needs to prove that he's capable of getting through progressions quicker and getting the ball out. He was my No. 6-ranked QB. But that was a need position, and you take the guy you feel can pan out. It's just remarkable in hindsight to see the top QBs still available into Round 4." Don't let the facts get in your way. A long established debate truism is never introduce data that undermines your main point. You may think that you're making a valid argument by quoting Kiper. But in the way that the season turned out, EJ was by far not the 6th-ranked QB. So by that measure, anything that Kiper says in his QB evaluation should be thrown out the window. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malazan Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 I still think the Browns should at least talk to Urban Meyer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloBillsForever Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 (edited) According to ESPN Pettine is one of seven candidates that will/have interview(ed) for the HC position. Edited January 16, 2014 by BuffaloBillsForever Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoloinOhio Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 I still think the Browns should at least talk to Urban Meyer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spiderweb Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 You continue to amaze me...I refuted your statement that "EJ was a consensus 3rd round pick or worse" by telling you that Mayock said on the day of the draft that EJ would go in the first. I also linked an article where he basically says the same thing...I then continued to provide links to show you that EJ was by no means "a consensus 3rd round pick or worse". Your response to me is to tell me that Kiper gave the Bills' draft a D because of the Manuel pick? And I'm the one touting "nonsense"? I think we're done here. Sounds like your adversary is a Faux News disciple. Facts and the truth have nothing to do with his position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reddy Freddy Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 My 2 cents ... If the Browns hire Pettine this year, they have some brass balls. As others have pointed out, it would have to be considered a PR disaster to hire a coordinator from the 6-10 Bills. It could end up being the right move for Cle, but it would take some guts to pull the trigger. Here's hoping they don't ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nitro Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 (edited) Fox News fan here. Pettine discussion to continue........... If he goes, good for him. Bills could have denied him the interview and that would be their right but not in his best interest. Cleveland is a city desperate for a quality HC and I can't blame them. I don't think Pettine's time is now. If he was smart, he'd wait for an offer from a more stable team. The Browns, from ownership to GM, has been under the gun for the past year. I think the job will go to an OC in the playoffs, either Denver OC Gase or NE OC McDaniel. Edited January 16, 2014 by Nitro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 Fox News fan here. Pettine discussion to continue........... If he goes, good for him. Bills could have denied him the interview and that would be their right but not in his best interest. Cleveland is a city desperate for a quality HC and I can't blame them. I don't think Pettine's time is now. If he was smart, he'd wait for an offer from a more stable team. The Browns, from ownership to GM, has been under the gun for the past year. I think the job will go to an OC in the playoffs, either Denver OC Gase or NE OC McDaniel. McDaniels has already removed his name from consideration. GO BILLS!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McD Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 Stay here Mike!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TXBILLSFAN Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 Fox News fan here. Pettine discussion to continue........... If he goes, good for him. Bills could have denied him the interview and that would be their right but not in his best interest. Cleveland is a city desperate for a quality HC and I can't blame them. I don't think Pettine's time is now. If he was smart, he'd wait for an offer from a more stable team. The Browns, from ownership to GM, has been under the gun for the past year. I think the job will go to an OC in the playoffs, either Denver OC Gase or NE OC McDaniel. I think the Browns want Gase --- and would "settle" for some of the other candidates still in the running, most likely Munchak ---- I also agree that the Browns situation is dysfunctional and a hornet's nest to walk into it -- and agree there is probably a better situation awaiting Pettine if he stays and continues to do well --- i.e. he becomes the sought after coordinator --- the issue, for Pettine (assuming he's offered position), how much does he want to roll the dice ? ---- McDaniels and Bowles decided to roll dice and wait until next off-season ---- possible open HC jobs next year, assuming no changes to HC with less than 3 years --- could be: Miami, NY Jets, Cincinnati, Oakland, Dallas and NY Giants --- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nitro Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 (edited) Well Hells Bells. I was hoping McDaniel would go. Rats. TXBILLSFAN, I think you are on to something. Next off season may have a better group of organizations looking for a HC. Edited January 16, 2014 by Nitro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TXBILLSFAN Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 Well Hells Bells. I was hoping McDaniel would go. Rats. TXBILLSFAN, I think you are on to something. Next off season may have a better group of organizations looking for a HC. Maybe Pettine's desire is to replace REX in NY ? --- we'd love to keep MP here another year, but, boy would we hate that afterward Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apuszczalowski Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 I think the Browns want Gase --- and would "settle" for some of the other candidates still in the running, most likely Munchak ---- I also agree that the Browns situation is dysfunctional and a hornet's nest to walk into it -- and agree there is probably a better situation awaiting Pettine if he stays and continues to do well --- i.e. he becomes the sought after coordinator --- the issue, for Pettine (assuming he's offered position), how much does he want to roll the dice ? ---- McDaniels and Bowles decided to roll dice and wait until next off-season ---- possible open HC jobs next year, assuming no changes to HC with less than 3 years --- could be: Miami, NY Jets, Cincinnati, Oakland, Dallas and NY Giants --- Ryan reportedly just signed an extension for some extra years, he's probably not going anywhere next offseason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 Well Hells Bells. I was hoping McDaniel would go. Rats. TXBILLSFAN, I think you are on to something. Next off season may have a better group of organizations looking for a HC. Take heart. McDaniels leaving or staying makes no difference in NE. That's Brady's offense and will be until he decides to hang 'em up. GO BILLS!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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