I still believe in EJ Manuel

[Tcali]

Disagree. Manuel has real upside that those other guys don't - huge arm, quick release, athletic, and excellent size. This team avoided taking a QB with their first pick for far too long. Better to take a risk on one with upside than to draft a can't miss LB who will do nothing to help the team win (assuming it doesn't have a quality QB). Manuel would not have been there at 41. You can't win in the NFL without a top QB. Keep drafting them until you have one, I say.

 

huge arm?? show me one single film clip from this season which shows the huge arm. one.

[dave mcbride]

 

 

huge arm?? show me one single film clip from this season which shows the huge arm. one.

He does have a huge arm, and you can see it on his throws if you're watching. He has accuracy problems now, though, and that's not only limiting him, it appears to be inhibiting him.

[34-78-83]

I bet half of your posts are already written for If/when EJ "Fails" again this week with zero WR's in the lineup. You'll have him on the trash heap and half way out of town by then I'm quite sure.

[thewildrabbit]

Now that EJ is a Buffalo Bills, my issues are not with him. My issues are with the current Bills offensive coordinator / QB coach.

 

If Hackett were calling plays for Matthew Stafford, Jay Cutler, Tom Brady, Drew Brees et al. Then I think he would do alright as an OC. It just so happens he has a stable filled with rookies QB's so raw they make sushi look well done.

 

Everyone so focused on the rookie QB and his play. Howsabout the fact that this OC forces all these young QB's to carry the team. Just like the known morons Dick Jauron / Turk Sconert did with JP & Trent.

[BarleyNY]

 

 

I would suggest that every draft pick made by every team is an example of "we know something everyone else doesn't." Nothing is guaranteed -- particularly not at the QB position. It is simply too soon to make an assessment on EJ.

 

This kid -- and yes, EJ is still a kid -- has played 6 games of football against NFL pros. He had a bad day against one of the greatest defensive coaches in history. Time to throw that baby out with the bathwater all right.

 

The Pop-Tart mentality of so many on this board is frustrating.

 

There is truth here, but I'm not optimistic. Here's why:

 

Lebeau has had incredible success against rookie QBs. Did anyone catch the stats put up about that during the game? It just shows how good he is at his job. (And why I can't wait for him to retire.) But I digress. Lebeau is so good, in part, because he figures out weaknesses in teams and players. His plan against the Bills seemed to be to load up and bring heat to stop the run and move the QB. Then take away deep and intermediate routes leaving the short game. Contain the run, make the QB move and dink and dunk. Wow, did that work. The Steelers with their 5-3 alignment are well suited for that game plan, but I'd expect to see other DCs doing similar things. Watch how much Manuel gets moved now. He's going to have to learn how to throw on the move or it's going to be a long couple of months for him and the Bills.

[KGUNBILLS]

worked for Kelly

 

Seriously though what makes me excited about Manziel is his work ethic and willingness to work on improving his game. He has made great strides this year on his passing game from the pockett, he is much more than a scrambler as some here are claiming.

 

As I've said in the college thread his coach says he is the most competitive player he has ever been around . That is the "it" that the great ones have.

Don't forget that it worked for us fans, and maybe just a little bit for the city of Buffalo too. LOL

[ajzepp]

 

They won't though.. no matter what the fans want, this FO has tied itself to Marrone and EJ for the next 3 years, I believe. Unless there was a "can't-miss" QB in this draft (and there almost never is) they will not waste a top pick on a QB.

 

I would agree with this in the past, but I just don't feel this is the case right now. The front office has made it clear that this team is going to win, and win soon. They are also very high on the idea of competition. They are very high on EJ, obviously, but I feel confident that they will not linger on with him behind center if he's not getting it done. As we all know, this isn't the 1980s NFL anymore. Rooks are expected to contribute immediately and their leashes are much shorter than in years past. IMO, there's no way we'll stick with EJ for three years unless it's warranted, especially given how much less of an investment teams are required to make in their 1st round picks anymore. And it's not like EJ was a top 5 pick...he was the middle of the round.

[Garion]

I hope EJ lights it up in the last 6 games or at least shows that he's most likely a franchise quarterback.

 

And, if that doesn't happen, I hope he has 6 more games like yesterday.

 

I don't want any of this fair to middling kind of stuff where we then pass on first round QBs this year.

 

Agreed though the last option is more likely.

[ajzepp]

huge arm?? show me one single film clip from this season which shows the huge arm. one.

 

At the 1:10 min mark...

 

[Miyagi-Do Karate]

The all-22 is going to be really insightful this week re. EJs performance.

[Orton's Arm]

 

 

At the 1:10 min mark...

 

 

Thanks for the link. I watched the video, and you have proven your point that he has a big arm. 90 - 95% of what I saw fell into two categories:

 

1) Manuel running the ball

2) Manuel throwing to wide-open targets/his first read

 

I didn't see much evidence that he could hit his WRs in stride. Usually he was throwing to stationary targets. Granted, his strong arm/ability to throw the ball on a rope meant that they didn't have to remain stationary for very long.

 

There were also times when he threw to a guy running downfield, or (less often) to a guy with some lateral movement. There were a few cases in which his throws seemed well-timed. But more often the WR had to slow down or adjust his route.

 

The overall body of work I saw in that highlight video did not convince me Manuel deserved to be taken in the first three rounds.

[zow2]

Will Manuel ever be better than Tannehill? Because right now he clearly isn't and i don't think Tannehill will be a special QB at all. If EJ can't hit guys, downfield in a tight window, then he is cooked. I feel bad for him if he doesn't have that ability because he won't make it through 2 seasons. We need to see some throws this week. I don't care who is out there at WR. Tuel had a pretty good game (minus one horrific INT) and also had 6 drops against a #1 defense. EJ has got to do better.

[KGUNBILLS]

It's funny the extremes from the bust crowd to the apologists. He could still be a great quarterback someday, we simply don't know right now. My issue is with management drafting him where he was drafted. This type of "we know something everyone else doesn't" mentality has kept this franchise in a state of mediocrity for years. You simply can't get cute with the draft.

I agree with having an issue with where he was drafted also. You don't draft a QB in the first round, from a mediocre QB class at best. All the QB's drafted this year were only worthy of late second, to mid third picks. Should have waited until this year to draft a QB. A much better crop to choose from. I guess we missed the wagon train again.

[Like A Mofo]

I wonder how many of you who say 'its clear that EJ ISNT the answer' were thinking that after the Week 2 Carolina win.

 

Can we PLEASE just give him 6 more games and then assess?

[zow2]

I wonder how many of you who say 'its clear that EJ ISNT the answer' were thinking that after the Week 2 Carolina win.

 

Can we PLEASE just give him 6 more games and then assess?

 

 

I did say after the Carolina game it wasn't a great performance. Other people did too. In crunch time EJ had an INT and a strip sack fumble. He got fortunate to dink and dunk his way downfield then the big PI penalty. I thought it was a building block but it hasn't been so far. I'm fine giving him the final six games. Let's see him improve.

[dave mcbride]

Thanks for the link. I watched the video, and you have proven your point that he has a big arm. 90 - 95% of what I saw fell into two categories:

 

1) Manuel running the ball

2) Manuel throwing to wide-open targets/his first read

 

I didn't see much evidence that he could hit his WRs in stride. Usually he was throwing to stationary targets. Granted, his strong arm/ability to throw the ball on a rope meant that they didn't have to remain stationary for very long.

 

There were also times when he threw to a guy running downfield, or (less often) to a guy with some lateral movement. There were a few cases in which his throws seemed well-timed. But more often the WR had to slow down or adjust his route.

 

The overall body of work I saw in that highlight video did not convince me Manuel deserved to be taken in the first three rounds.

 

Yes, those receivers were generally always wide open except in a couple of instances.

[YoloinOhio]

Yes, those receivers were generally always wide open except in a couple of instances.

Most WRs are wide open in college... he isn't the only one to have the adjust to NFL defenses.

I did say after the Carolina game it wasn't a great performance. Other people did too. In crunch time EJ had an INT and a strip sack fumble. He got fortunate to dink and dunk his way downfield then the big PI penalty. I thought it was a building block but it hasn't been so far. I'm fine giving him the final six games. Let's see him improve.

WTH? Since when does a QB "get fortunate" to go down the field on a top 3 NFL defense and score the winning TD? Geez, give the kid a little credit. That's ridiculous.

[John from Riverside]

I find it interesting how naysayers so easily dismiss the good things EJ has done this year so they can heat up the tar and feathers......its laughable

 

You cant love or hate people in slices....you take the good with the bad (and vice versa) when you are developing a rookie QB

 

I did say after the Carolina game it wasn't a great performance. Other people did too. In crunch time EJ had an INT and a strip sack fumble. He got fortunate to dink and dunk his way downfield then the big PI penalty. I thought it was a building block but it hasn't been so far. I'm fine giving him the final six games. Let's see him improve.

 

Wait what?

[GG]

I find it interesting how naysayers so easily dismiss the good things EJ has done this year so they can heat up the tar and feathers......its laughable

 

You cant love or hate people in slices....you take the good with the bad (and vice versa) when you are developing a rookie QB

 

 

 

Wait what?

 

Your confusion is misplaced. Many people were forgiving of Manuel's play in the first part of the season. The troubling part is that he seems to be regressing as the season wears on. Part of it is that defenses have more tape on him, and part of it is that he has not elevated his game and in fact showed far worse tendencies against Pitt than he has in previous games.

 

The Jets game will be a big test to see if the Pitt game was mostly jitters and timing from sitting out 4 weeks, or if it's a continuing pattern of him not getting the fundamentals.

[Rob's House]

 

 

Your confusion is misplaced. Many people were forgiving of Manuel's play in the first part of the season. The troubling part is that he seems to be regressing as the season wears on. Part of it is that defenses have more tape on him, and part of it is that he has not elevated his game and in fact showed far worse tendencies against Pitt than he has in previous games.

 

The Jets game will be a big test to see if the Pitt game was mostly jitters and timing from sitting out 4 weeks, or if it's a continuing pattern of him not getting the fundamentals.

That's it right there. If he shows even modest proficiency next week I suspect that will buy a lot more patience from the fan base. Few expect him to play lights out, but most expect steady improvement. If he lays an egg again next week it'll be hard to call it a fluke.

[Heitz]

I've been listening to Sirius the last couple days and Gannon had some thoughts on EJ:

 

- Said that the time he missed during training camp and during the season was a BIG deal. He missed a lot of reps, throwing and building chemistry with the O. To me this is the #1 thing people are ignoring in EJs poor Pittsburgh performance...

 

- Said (obviously) that his accuracy is off and that he has no chemistry with Stevie (keeping in mind SJ didn't practice last week)

 

- Said that during the Steelers game, things were moving to fast, he was rushing throws and was poor with his footwork

 

- Said that Hackett needs to get him out of the shotgun and under center. He said that would really help a young QB with this footwork, timing and would help hide looks in the running game.

 

 

Not sure what it all adds up to, but I'm guessing its not just one thing with EJ...

[JohnC]

I apologize for not being on topic but I'm having a terrible time with positing on this site. My problem is that I can't move the cursor around when I hit enter or the tab key. It is impossible for me to start new paragraphs. Somehow I screwed the settings. If anyone has any suggestions to correct this problem I will appreciate it You can either post a recommendation or email me with your suggestions.

[zow2]

Your confusion is misplaced. Many people were forgiving of Manuel's play in the first part of the season. The troubling part is that he seems to be regressing as the season wears on. Part of it is that defenses have more tape on him, and part of it is that he has not elevated his game and in fact showed far worse tendencies against Pitt than he has in previous games.

 

The Jets game will be a big test to see if the Pitt game was mostly jitters and timing from sitting out 4 weeks, or if it's a continuing pattern of him not getting the fundamentals.

 

Exactly. I'm not looking for him to be like Andy Dalton vs the Jets (49 points!)...but he can't be the EJ we saw in Jets game #1 or Pittsburgh. That is Brian Brohm or Trent Edwards level right there. I'm giving him credit for Carolina but not without some critique over the crunch time turnovers. I was at the Baltimore game...i thought he was making progess (even tho still too many 3 and outs). He maybe had his best throw of the season in that game on an incompletion down the sidelines to Chandler because Scott couldn't keep his one foot in bounds.

[thebandit27]

Your confusion is misplaced. Many people were forgiving of Manuel's play in the first part of the season. The troubling part is that he seems to be regressing as the season wears on. Part of it is that defenses have more tape on him, and part of it is that he has not elevated his game and in fact showed far worse tendencies against Pitt than he has in previous games.

 

The Jets game will be a big test to see if the Pitt game was mostly jitters and timing from sitting out 4 weeks, or if it's a continuing pattern of him not getting the fundamentals.

 

No, he isn't.

 

He had a bad game in his return to the field. He looked far better against both Baltimore and Cleveland (his last 2 games prior to Pittsburgh) than he did against the Jets, so the bold statement above is basically exclusive to the Pittsburgh game. Stating it as though it's a trend is patently incorrect.

 

Your final statement is far more representative of a salient point.

[Gerry]

Unless EJ really picks it up the rest of the season, you know what will happen next summer-he will be competing with Lewis for the starting job. Lewis did inject some life into the offense before he was injured, is more mobile than EJ, and seems to have an equal if not better arm. Even more impressive is that he played without having the benefit of being in camp and was only with the team for a week or two before starting. The Bills will not draft a QB early as it would mean the new regime admitting that they were wrong on EJ.

[zow2]

The one thing about EJ is he appears to be mentally strong, so i wouldn't expect one bad game to snowball into more. Let's hope getting home and away from the Dick Lebeau defense will help him get back on track. I would think the Bills D will come out blazing in this one like they did vs. KC, especially after Geno kind of embarrassed them in game #1.

[Billsguy]

There is little intangible that cannot be weighed or measured.....and I think EJ has it.....

 

And I think he bounces back next week.

 

My friends and family in Florida watched him play every game at Florida State. It was their unanimous opinion that he was the main reason holding the team back from being great. Now that he has left, Florida St. has achieved greatness. I don't know for sure, but I feel he might be one of those players who looks great on paper but never achieves it on the field. Does he have the intangibles and the natural instincts to be great?

 

Based on what I have seen so far, the answer is no. (but it's still way too early to know)

[eball]

My friends and family in Florida watched him play every game at Florida State. It was their unanimous opinion that he was the main reason holding the team back from being great. Now that he has left, Florida St. has achieved greatness. I don't know for sure, but I feel he might be one of those players who looks great on paper but never achieves it on the field. Does he have the intangibles and the natural instincts to be great?

 

Based on what I have seen so far, the answer is no. (but it's still way too early to know)

 

I'm not going to comment on your "friends and family" critique of EJ "holding back greatness" for FSU other than to suggest you might want to consider the fact that program was already mired in a significant run of mediocrity prior to EJ's arrival.

 

8-5, 7-6, 7-6, 9-4 were the records for FSU from 2005-2008, and the program hadn't won 10 games since 2003 before a combination of Ponder and EJ led them to 10 wins in 2010.

 

Just sayin'...

Edited November 12, 2013 by eball

[Orton's Arm]

 

 

My friends and family in Florida watched him play every game at Florida State. It was their unanimous opinion that he was the main reason holding the team back from being great. Now that he has left, Florida St. has achieved greatness. I don't know for sure, but I feel he might be one of those players who looks great on paper but never achieves it on the field. Does he have the intangibles and the natural instincts to be great?

 

Based on what I have seen so far, the answer is no. (but it's still way too early to know)

 

Your post reinforced suspicions I'd formed when gathering information about him. Almost nothing in his college highlight reel suggested greatness. Great physical tools, sure, but not great accuracy, nor great ability to read defenses, nor a great ability to throw into tight coverage.

 

Going into the 2013 draft, the Bills were very strongly motivated to find their quarterback of the future. When they looked at Manuel, they saw what they wanted to see, not what was actually there. Your friends and family in Florida could watch him with more dispassion. No one was going to fire them from six figure jobs for failing to find a QB of the future.

 

[dave mcbride]

No, he isn't.

 

He had a bad game in his return to the field. He looked far better against both Baltimore and Cleveland (his last 2 games prior to Pittsburgh) than he did against the Jets, so the bold statement above is basically exclusive to the Pittsburgh game. Stating it as though it's a trend is patently incorrect.

 

Your final statement is far more representative of a salient point.

 

Since games 1 and 2 (Pats and Panthers), his completion rate is 50.1 percent and he's averaging 5.6 ypa. He has definitely declined since the first two games.

Edited November 12, 2013 by dave mcbride

[Gordio]

 

 

My friends and family in Florida watched him play every game at Florida State. It was their unanimous opinion that he was the main reason holding the team back from being great. Now that he has left, Florida St. has achieved greatness. I don't know for sure, but I feel he might be one of those players who looks great on paper but never achieves it on the field. Does he have the intangibles and the natural instincts to be great?

 

Based on what I have seen so far, the answer is no. (but it's still way too early to know)

 

I watched him a ton in college & was never wowed by him. His accuracy stinks. Even Flordia State guys on this board(Ramius, a couple others) did not give him their full endorsement stating he had some short comings. Ramius oftened said it seems like Fisher is holding him back only using part of the play book. What is even more disturbing is seeing what Florida State is doing on offense this year. They have been unstoppable & Fisher seems like he has full confidence in Winston, confidence he never seemed to have in Manuel. It is still early in his career but the warning signs are there that he is going to be a bust. With that being said, let's see what he does the last 6 games. I hope Marrone/Hacket realizing the season is pretty much over open the playbook for EJ & let's see what he can do.

 

With that being said, if the Bills land in the top 5 next year I would be very tempted to draft a QB. In gambling terms, don't look at it like they are giving up on EJ, just hedging their bets that he does not improve. Bridgewater, Boyd, Marrioto, Manzel, Hundley, one of those guys will be available when the bills pick & I would be tempted to pull the trigger.

Edited November 12, 2013 by Gordio

[John from Riverside]

Your confusion is misplaced. Many people were forgiving of Manuel's play in the first part of the season. The troubling part is that he seems to be regressing as the season wears on. Part of it is that defenses have more tape on him, and part of it is that he has not elevated his game and in fact showed far worse tendencies against Pitt than he has in previous games.

 

The Jets game will be a big test to see if the Pitt game was mostly jitters and timing from sitting out 4 weeks, or if it's a continuing pattern of him not getting the fundamentals.

 

Jesus....does the fact that he has been injured for 4 weeks come into play at all here? Improvement? How? Where are the reps....where is the chemistry with his targets.....a QB...especially a rookie NEEDS those things. Were really gonna make a evaluation on a rookie QB that hasnt been on the field for 4 weeks?

 

I watched him a ton in college & was never wowed by him. His accuracy stinks. Even Flordia State guys on this board(Ramius, a couple others) did not give him their full endorsement stating he had some short comings. Ramius oftened said it seems like Fisher is holding him back only using part of the play book. What is even more disturbing is seeing what Florida State is doing on offense this year. They have been unstoppable & Fisher seems like he has full confidence in Winston, confidence he never seemed to have in Manuel. It is still early in his career but the warning signs are there that he is going to be a bust. With that being said, let's see what he does the last 6 games. I hope Marrone/Hacket realizing the season is pretty much over open the playbook for EJ & let's see what he can do.

 

With that being said, if the Bills land in the top 5 next year I would be very tempted to draft a QB. In gambling terms, don't look at it like they are giving up on EJ, just hedging their bets that he does not improve. Bridgewater, Boyd, Marrioto, Manzel, Hundley, one of those guys will be available when the bills pick & I would be tempted to pull the trigger.

 

If EJ didnt have a few "shortcomings" the guy would have been drafted by someone in the high first round based off physical talents. A winner in college.....huge body....huge arm...leader.....there HAD to be some things he needed to work on for him to even slide.

[Realist]

You guys who are expecting big things from EJ against the Jets or at least better things against them, do realize who his starting receivers are likely to be?

 

The starting WR's are probably TJ, Goodwin, and Hogan/Easley. I'm sure EJ will be lighting the place on fire Sunday with them.

[34-78-83]

You guys who are expecting big things from EJ against the Jets or at least better things against them, do realize who his starting receivers are likely to be?

 

The starting WR's are probably TJ, Goodwin, and Hogan/Easley. I'm sure EJ will be lighting the place on fire Sunday with them.

 

They'll pile on just the same, don't fret

[eball]

You guys who are expecting big things from EJ against the Jets or at least better things against them, do realize who his starting receivers are likely to be?

 

The starting WR's are probably TJ, Goodwin, and Hogan/Easley. I'm sure EJ will be lighting the place on fire Sunday with them.

 

Sobering.

[Clippers of Nfl]

I still believe in Ej. I just wish they just let him launch it. The accuracy will improve. It did with Brady.

 

Why can the denver broncos run wide receiver screens all day, just not us???

 

This is supposed to be a copycat league!!!! Marrone, hackett. What are you waiting for? Copy denver please!!!!

[Kemp2Warlick]

I'm not calling EJ a bust yet....but...he looks more bust right now than franchise. I'm afraid watching him trying to develop is going to be painful. I watched him play in college and he didn't impress me at all. I know Joe B. wasn't impressed either and he's a big FSU fan. He is a Bill,so I hoping he can become a good qb.

[YoloinOhio]

I'm not calling EJ a bust yet....but...he looks more bust right now than franchise. I'm afraid watching him trying to develop is going to be painful. I watched him play in college and he didn't impress me at all. I know Joe B. wasn't impressed either and he's a big FSU fan. He is a Bill,so I hoping he can become a good qb.

I wasn't impressed with the following in college... Geno Smith (past his first 3 or 4 games of his senior year), Mike Glennon, Jake Locker, Tom Brady, Colin Kaepernick, Joe Flacco, Ponder, Pryor (and I am a Buckeye fan) ...need I go on? They are drafted on their potential to be franchise QBs in the NFL. The scouting report on EJ was that he was a project, he was erxpected to be developed and molded beyond the first season and ultimately be a better QB than the other 2 that were drafted in the first 3 rounds. They didn't project where they would be after 6 games, that would be comparable to now. Edited November 12, 2013 by YoloInTheBlo

[Gordio]

I'm not calling EJ a bust yet....but...he looks more bust right now than franchise. I'm afraid watching him trying to develop is going to be painful. I watched him play in college and he didn't impress me at all. I know Joe B. wasn't impressed either and he's a big FSU fan. He is a Bill,so I hoping he can become a good qb.

 

That is a great point. Joe B who I think is pretty knowledgable & went to FSU has never gave Manuel a ringing endorsement. Ramius who is probably the biggest FSU fan on her & I believe still lives in Tallahassee, has never given him a ringing endorsement. Sure they will mention his skills, but if you watched Manuel in college something was missing from his game. I don't know if he is going to be a bust but the warning signs are there. Let's hedge our bet next year & draft another QB in the first round. If Manuel is going to be the franchise QB then he will beat whoever they bring in & we got a trade chip to recoupe that draft pick down the line.

[Cash]

You guys who are expecting big things from EJ against the Jets or at least better things against them, do realize who his starting receivers are likely to be?

 

The starting WR's are probably TJ, Goodwin, and Hogan/Easley. I'm sure EJ will be lighting the place on fire Sunday with them.

 

Geno Smith's starting WRs when he lit us up in week 3 were Stephen Hill, Jeremy Kerley, and a gimpy Santonio Holmes. I don't need EJ to light it up, but he needs to play better than he did last week. No excuses.