SelmonSmith6378 Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 He needs a new nickname...Jango Fett, anyone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NastyNateSoldiers Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 Some interesting comments from NO writer Jeff Duncan on twitter... http://twitter.com/#!/jeffduncantp I agree with u 100%, if the Saints players were breaking the rules. They would of been fined for dirty hits immediately after the games or during the week. The NFL looks over film of all the games looking for these types of infractions. This is bullshh the NFL is gonna become flag football someday. Juron style ------------------------------------------------------------- There's a difference between "hurt" and "injured" that I believe is being blurred here. I honestly dont believe that any Saints player wanted to seriously injure a fellow player. However, you can hurt them so they cant perform as well. And you can do so, while playing completely within the rules. It's the attitude that good defenses have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 (edited) The Saints have never struck me as a dirty team. I'm trying to remember Williams' D in Washington. I'd qualify them as chippy. And they hit qbs when possible, but not crazy dirty with it. Wrs are played as clean as I've seen. I'm still curious to see the jeff fisher angle play out - he keeps hiring him and is a leader within the NFL and coaches. Competition committee and totally unaware of this? Edited March 3, 2012 by NoSaint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HalftimeAdjustment Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 (edited) So, thinking about this and looking at the details. Some of the bounty money was provided not by players, nor by GW, but also by a convicted felon who was a friend/associate of the head coach but was convicted of fraud (in part for selling falsified NFL merchandise). Hypothetically, if following the money trail led back to gamblers, what would the penalties be? Can anyone support OUTSIDE money coming into an organization to pay players to do anything on the field (let alone injure an opponent)? League has to put this down hard or else the scandal will keep growing. Players putting up their own money is one thing ... Coaches paying players is worse (violates the salary cap, etc)... but having non-team employees contributing to bounties is a completely different level and is no different from gambling. Saints have to lose draft picks and be fined, Payton must be suspended for his association with the felon, and GW who is a repeat offender must be suspended 1yr+. Edited March 3, 2012 by HalftimeAdjustment Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 I agree with fines, picks and gw suspended. SP I think is a fine, and no player suspensions in my book, unless we learn more. The felon story is new to me so it might grow still. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truth on hold Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 (edited) Never could stand williams. Not a favre fan but the way they treated him in that conference champ game was a disgrace. I hope Williams gets run out of the league over this. Edited March 3, 2012 by Joe_the_6_pack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbb Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 Just curious why you think so? People who post here at this time of year may be hard core football types, but casual NFL fans are probably following basketball and/or hockey now. Free agency starts in a few days - - it seems likely that breaking free agent signing news will get the spotlight then. If you were an NFL exec with the power to choose when this story broke, when would you release it? I'm talking about this whole cracking down on head hits/concussion awareness time that keeps gaining steam. Years ago, this wouldn't have been much news.........I remember this story about the '80 Bills where there was a players meeting and Villapiano wanted a guy on defense knocked out of the game, and said Dobler had to do it.....Dobler said No, he can't do it, and then Villapiano and the rest of the players kept at him until he finally promised the guy was going to get knocked out. And, then he did........I don't think they revealed who that player was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HalftimeAdjustment Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 I agree with fines, picks and gw suspended. SP I think is a fine, and no player suspensions in my book, unless we learn more. The felon story is new to me so it might grow still. I don't see grounds for player suspensions unless something else comes out. The players are the employees of the team. They participated or even endorsed this, but if it was just players then it probably would be the same in almost every other team. Even Vilma offering $10K on Favre is borderline, not sure it is something they can nail him on under the CBA... a fine perhaps. Sean Payton's problem is that the NFL apparently has an email from this Ornstein guy to Sean Payton detailing the bounty scheme. The NFL previously tried to get the Saints to distance themselves from Ornstein after he was convicted of fraud, but he was still around in 2011. You know the league is going to be very unhappy with any guy who is convicted of selling non-game worn jerseys as authentic game-worn jerseys, but still is involved with offering cash for players to perform acts in a game (whether interceptions or big hits). Same guy who represented Reggie Bush. Classy situation New Orleans has going on here. Here's a few links to consider on this aspect of the story. http://www.sbnation.com/nfl/2012/3/2/2840512/mike-ornstein-new-orleans-saints-bounty-program http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/story/14087531/why-didnt-saints-cut-ties-with-sketchy-ornstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICanSleepWhenI'mDead Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 I'm talking about this whole cracking down on head hits/concussion awareness time that keeps gaining steam. Years ago, this wouldn't have been much news.........I remember this story about the '80 Bills where there was a players meeting and Villapiano wanted a guy on defense knocked out of the game, and said Dobler had to do it.....Dobler said No, he can't do it, and then Villapiano and the rest of the players kept at him until he finally promised the guy was going to get knocked out. And, then he did........I don't think they revealed who that player was. Conrad Dobler had to be persuaded to do something dirty? Now that's man bites dog news! http://espn.go.com/page2/s/list/dirtiest/players.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICanSleepWhenI'mDead Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 Here's a great humblebrag tweet from Shawne Merrimen: Why is this a big deal now? Bounties been going on forever. A "Bounty" left me with a torn PCL and LCL in my knee check the 07' Titans game I was pissed I had to play in the pro bowl with that knee like that lol #Stillhere shawnemerriman A Tweet by @shawnemerriman Some background about Merriman's claim - - reportedly involved coach-ordered retaliation by the Titans but no financial bounty: http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=nfp-20120302_merriman_questions_why_bounty_is_news_now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo Barbarian Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 Cheating. Its illegal as hell and I hope the Saints lose their first round pick this year just for starters. Yes and it goes to us for not getting us to the playoffs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim in Anchorage Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 (edited) Must be something he learned after he left the Bills, cause it sure didn't look like it was going on here. Be a shame if they put a asterisk on that 6-10* season. Edited March 3, 2012 by Jim in Anchorage Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eball Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 Apparently the issue is confusing unless you recognize that there are two separate issues: 1) Bounties for big plays (as Darren Sharper explained, sacks, ints, passes defensed, FF, FR, etc) 2) Bounties with intent to injure One of Greg(g) Williams' former players in the Washington Post article said: "You got compensated more for a kill shot than you did other hits" Another player said: "If you took the star player out, he'd hook you up a little bit," another player admitted, while also defending Williams. When players are encouraged to take cheap shots outside the rules it is a big deal. When players are monetarily encouraged by their coaches to have a disregard for the careers of other players, it is a big deal. If this was simply about hitting people cleanly as hard as possible, it wouldn't be the issue that it is. At this early juncture the bounty story does not sound to me like the promotion of clean play. Gregg Williams' apology: "I want to express my sincere regret and apology to the NFL, Mr. Benson, and the New Orleans Saints fans for my participation in the 'pay for performance' program while I was with the Saints," Williams said. "It was a terrible mistake, and we knew it was wrong while we were doing it. Instead of getting caught up in it, I should have stopped it. I take full responsibility for my role. I am truly sorry. I have learned a hard lesson and I guarantee that I will never participate in or allow this kind of activity to happen again." http://profootballta...rrible-mistake/ I'm not outraged or surprised. But it's amazing to me that some people here think that there's no difference between playing hard and playing dirty… that there's no difference between a violent sport and a dirty sport. Have you ever witnessed an NFL player "losing it" because he thought that the opponent was going for his knees and trying to take him out? Pro football players accept the risks that come with playing the world's most dangerous sport. They should never, nor should the fans, accept that the sport they play is dirty and that careers could end on a cheap shot encouraged by a coach. If this is indeed part of the culture which now exists, it's yet another symptom of the decay of professional sports. I'm not amazed at all. You visit this forum frequently enough to know that as well; immaturity reigns supreme around here. That said -- great post, SJBF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandon Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 While I'm sure this type of thing is fairly common around the league, that doesn't make it acceptable and when someone gets caught, like the Saints and Gregg Williams have, the league needs to make an example of them. The Saints need to lose several high draft picks over this, the ownership heavily fined, and the coaches involved should be banned. There's no place for this kind of garbage in a sporting event. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 The Saints have never struck me as a dirty team. I'm trying to remember Williams' D in Washington. They were extremely dirty -- as was tennesee. It's jeff fisher culture, who learned from the master of the bounty, buddy ryan. It's truly disgusting, and i'm gonna call out everyone here who thinks it's ok. It's really, really not. I mean, if robbery is rampant in a particular neighborhood, does it make it ok if "it goes on all the time"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spartacus Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 As someone else mentioned, the Saints have no first round pick this year. at a minimum, the league should take away their franchise tag for 2012 - sign Brees in the next week or he hits free agency convenient how Williams is now on another team - so his suspension won't hurt the Saints the league should force the Saints to use George Edwards as their DC in 2012 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt in KC Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 Haven't read all the threads in awhile. I just found this as i was about to start a new one, so my comments are behind the conversation. The NFL announced Friday that the Saints operated an improper bounty program that paid players as much as $1,500 for hits that injured opposing players. The program, administered by Williams, also a former defensive coordinator there, paid $1500 for a “knockout” hit and $1000 if an opponent was carted off the field between 2009 and 2011, the NFL said. Most of the money was contributed by players, but Williams also donated to the fund. What a slimeball, if true. I don't remember the Saints playing particularly dirty, but still. Are coaches and teams allowed to pay players beyond the salaries reported to the NFL for salary cap etc.? The $$s don't compare, but isn't that a big deal too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloBillsSD Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 While I'm sure this type of thing is fairly common around the league, that doesn't make it acceptable and when someone gets caught, like the Saints and Gregg Williams have, the league needs to make an example of them. The Saints need to lose several high draft picks over this, the ownership heavily fined, and the coaches involved should be banned. There's no place for this kind of garbage in a sporting event. Why stop there, get rid of the entire franchise! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrDawkinstein Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 Lots of players from other teams, past and present, are coming out saying this is no big deal. The only people making it a big deal are: 1. The NFL, and 2. Sports Reporters. The NFL has to make it a big deal as they are currently being sued by 700 players regarding injuries. The media has to make it a big deal because they need to fill time before Free Agency, in this lull of the offseason. The only people that are "up in arms" about this stand to lose/benefit financially. Dont be fooled into thinking this is to "protect the players" or because of some moral, "sportsmanship" high road. The players know about this stuff and have never had a problem with it. It's only people that have a financial interest who care. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CodeMonkey Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 Lots of players from other teams, past and present, are coming out saying this is no big deal. The only people making it a big deal are: 1. The NFL, and 2. Sports Reporters. The NFL has to make it a big deal as they are currently being sued by 700 players regarding injuries. The media has to make it a big deal because they need to fill time before Free Agency, in this lull of the offseason. The only people that are "up in arms" about this stand to lose/benefit financially. Dont be fooled into thinking this is to "protect the players" or because of some moral, "sportsmanship" high road. The players know about this stuff and have never had a problem with it. It's only people that have a financial interest who care. You are completely right. Anyone who thinks this is a uncommon thing in the locker rooms has their head buried in the sand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrDawkinstein Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 You are completely right. Anyone who thinks this is a uncommon thing in the locker rooms has their head buried in the sand. And Im not just saying "It's ok since everyone does it". My point is, if these "bounty systems" were truly changing the way the game was played, they would have been exposed much earlier. And the teams using them (almost all 32) would have a lot more personal fouls. These systems have been around for years, yet we see the game become less and less violent every year. So obviously the systems were more for show, and bragging, than for actually causing players to be cheap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 And Im not just saying "It's ok since everyone does it". My point is, if these "bounty systems" were truly changing the way the game was played, they would have been exposed much earlier. And the teams using them (almost all 32) would have a lot more personal fouls. These systems have been around for years, yet we see the game become less and less violent every year. So obviously the systems were more for show, and bragging, than for actually causing players to be cheap. Well, as it so happens, "all of these bounty systems" can be traced back to one person--Buddy Ryan. Everyone charged has worked for him or someone trained by him. The fish rots at the head. Don't assume that others do this just becuase a whole bunch of people associated with Ryan do. To follow my point about Ryan: http://sportschrome.photoshelter.com/image/I000046WunP2UK.g Many of us remember this play, when calvin pace needlessly and sickeningly--and deliberately--twisted trent edwards' neck around as he was going down. Pace's coach? Rex Ryan. Pace's reaction: http://www.google.com/search?um=1&hl=en&client=safari&tbo=d&biw=1024&bih=690&tbm=isch&sa=1&q=edwards+trent+jets+calvin+pace+sack+bills&oq=edwards+trent+jets+calvin+pace+sack+bills&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=3&gs_upl=1473l1934l0l2153l3l3l0l0l0l0l0l0ll0l0 Maybe he's happy because $10K is coming his way? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrDawkinstein Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 Well, as it so happens, "all of these bounty systems" can be traced back to one person--Buddy Ryan. Everyone charged has worked for him or someone trained by him. The fish rots at the head. Don't assume that others do this just becuase a whole bunch of people associated with Ryan do. Per our man, and "Dat Dude", Marcellus Wiley... http://twitter.com/#!/marcelluswiley RT @sprtsramblngman @marcelluswiley are bounties that common?$Oh yes Bounty's in the NFL are a problem now? Only issue is that it became public & now the fans know. I don't think Goodell should discipline. U? Wiley didnt play for Williams or anyone else from Budy Ryan's tree. Dont assume no one else is doing it just because you can trace it back to one guy. With the way coaches and players cycle around the league, behavior spreads pretty quickly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UConn James Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 I believe we can counter ANY claim that Gregggggggg Williams was doing this as Buffalo's HC with videographic evidence of Eddie Robinson getting juked out his shoes by Chadwick Pennington circa 2002 as he bumbled in for a TD --- on 4th down (and it wasn't even 4th-n-short). That D wasn't organized enough to tackle, much less injure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 Per our man, and "Dat Dude", Marcellus Wiley... http://twitter.com/#!/marcelluswiley Wiley didnt play for Williams or anyone else from Budy Ryan's tree. Dont assume no one else is doing it just because you can trace it back to one guy. With the way coaches and players cycle around the league, behavior spreads pretty quickly. Wiley doesn't list any teams. Regardless, let's assume you're correct for a second. That makes it even worse. The sport has a violence problem, which is going to catch up with it sooner or later. Goodell knows this, which is why he's concerned. He should be. This whole thing reminds me of why i now prefer baseball--people (players, coaches, fans) rationalizing away demonstrably sociopathic behavior. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrDawkinstein Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 Wiley doesn't list any teams. Regardless, let's assume you're correct for a second. That makes it even worse. The sport has a violence problem, which is going to catch up with it sooner or later. Goodell knows this, which is why he's concerned. He should be. This whole thing reminds me of why i now prefer baseball--people (players, coaches, fans) rationalizing away demonstrably sociopathic behavior. The sport has a violence problem?!?!? We're talking about FOOTBALL. It IS violent. Im really surprised at how many people would be better off watching the ballet. I dont want to see anyone's life ruined from an injury, but this is football. You know what you are getting into from the first time you strap on the pads. What's next? A slippery ice problem in hockey? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 (edited) The sport has a violence problem?!?!? We're talking about FOOTBALL. It IS violent. Im really surprised at how many people would be better off watching the ballet. I dont want to see anyone's life ruined from an injury, but this is football. You know what you are getting into from the first time you strap on the pads. What's next? A slippery ice problem in hockey? The fact that the sport is inherently violent does not mean that it should allow ultra-violence. That's an argumentative fallacy, like saying that the war shouldn't be subject to laws because of its extreme violence. The violence is there, to be sure, but it has to be managed. Otherwise, we may as well bring back gladiator fights. And yes, despite what some stupid commentators might suggest, there is a massive qualitative difference between nfl football and gladiatorial combat. Edited March 3, 2012 by dave mcbride Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbb Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 Conrad Dobler had to be persuaded to do something dirty? Now that's man bites dog news! http://espn.go.com/page2/s/list/dirtiest/players.html There was a reason that Phil picked Conrad to be the one to do the job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 The sport has a violence problem?!?!? We're talking about FOOTBALL. It IS violent. Im really surprised at how many people would be better off watching the ballet. I dont want to see anyone's life ruined from an injury, but this is football. You know what you are getting into from the first time you strap on the pads. What's next? A slippery ice problem in hockey? Players know bounties are being placed on them with the specific goal to injure them, when they "strap on their pads"? Hands down this is the dumbest response to this subject yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimmy10 Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 I'm more surprised that he thought he'd get away with it than I am at the fact that it happened at all. Telling members of a union to go out and incapacitate other members of that union? Yeah, that's not going to go over well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
papazoid Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 NFL can prepare for massive lawsuits from any player injured by the Saints... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 If New Orleans is so good and it's "just football afterall" and there was never any intent to purposely incapacitate an opponent, then why the "bounty" incentive in the first place? Isn't it a given that the players will play hard and within the rules in the first place? Why would a good player need that extra incentive if he was secure enough? F*ck the Saints and f*ck Gregg Williams. I hope the league imposes record-setting fines and penalties. GO SABRES!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miyagi-Do Karate Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 The Saints have never struck me as a dirty team. I'm trying to remember Williams' D in Washington. Interesting you say that. I have gotten into arguments with my friends over this. None of us watch many Saints games. But every time I see them play, there always seems to be some really questionable after-the-play stuff going on, especially by their safeties. I think Adrian Peterson even accused them of twisting his injured ankle after every tackle. Plus, recall that Kurt Warner's career was ended by a blind-side (I would argue super cheap) block on an INT return. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Trooth Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 (edited) Shocking. Who'd have guessed? Well, let's not put too much thought on this. He comes from the Buddy Ryan School of Total Schittheadz, right? So, coaches in that fraternity have learned, encourage, and wear that stuff like a badge of honor. Go back and look at some video footage of bums in this fraternity. Would it surprise anyone to find that Jeff Fisher, Jim Schwarz, Chuck Cecil, Rex Ryan, Rob Ryan are all part of that Buddy Ryan Tree and that's all they know. Take that crap away from them and they might not even be average. Edited March 3, 2012 by Dr. Trooth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerball Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 Another former Bill weighs in And speculation about his time in Washington Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrDawkinstein Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 (edited) Players know bounties are being placed on them with the specific goal to injure them, when they "strap on their pads"? Hands down this is the dumbest response to this subject yet. To a certain extent, yes. As proven by the stream of players stating that this is commonplace and not a big deal. And more so, because they know and understand that they play a very violent sport. It's not a specific goal to injure, but it is to hurt. Bounty system or not, going out with an intent to inflict pain on the opponent IS the mindset that they put themselves in every week. It's at the very nature and core of the game. To deny that is just trying to put yourself on some highhorse, and shows how little you understand the game. Stop being naive. Just like there is no way there is any fixing going on in professional sports, right? Just as Bucky Brooks says above: In addressing the damning allegations of placing bounties on opposing players, I would like to believe the Saints instituted policies that rewarded defenders for hard but clean shots that separated ball carriers from the ball. These "knockout" shots, as we called them, were not inflicted with the intent to injure, but rather to establish a physical tone that created hesitation and fear in the minds of offensive players venturing across the middle of the field. Everyone who is pretending to be up in arms about this, needs to get off their high horse. Edited March 3, 2012 by DrDareustein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
papazoid Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 NFL can prepare for massive lawsuits from any player injured by the Saints... here we go... Dungy: Gregg Williams’ Redskins may have started Peyton Manning’s neck issues: By the time the "BountyGate" scandal investigation is over, the only thing former New Orleans Saints defensive coordinator Gregg Williams might not have been blamed for is whatever gas prices happen to be at that time. Last September, Cindy Boren of the Washington Post wrote an article in which ex-Indianapolis Colts head coach Tony Dungy put the start of Peyton Manning's longstanding neck injuries and surgeries at a game between the Colts and the Redskins on October 22, 2006. On one play, Manning was given a "high-low" hit by defensive linemen Andre Carter and Phillip Daniels. Those types of hits, in which two defensive players aim for different halves of an offensive player's body, are among the most dangerous in football. After the play, Manning lay on the ground for a brief time, got up, and as Dungy told Peter King of SI.com and NBC Sports last September, shook his right arm "as if trying to get the feeling back in it." http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nfl-shutdown-corner/dungy-gregg-williams-redskins-may-started-peyton-manning-163634407.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICanSleepWhenI'mDead Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 Bucky Brooks literally says "I would like to believe" and you conclude that the people offended by this are "pretending?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrDawkinstein Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 Bucky Brooks literally says "I would like to believe" and you conclude that the people offended by this are "pretending?" Read the article... To illustrate that point, I will point to an example from my time with the Kansas City Chiefs during which we routinely would reward players with framed pictures of their big hits in team meetings. This certainly didn't promote dirty play or encourage defenders to play beyond the whistle, but receiving recognition for a bone-jarring hit definitely was motivating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICanSleepWhenI'mDead Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 (edited) Buy a dictionary! I'm not offended by framed pictures of big hits being used as a motivational tool by a different team. Edited March 3, 2012 by ICanSleepWhenI'mDead Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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