Mix and match Allen/Mahomes and Reid/McDermott

[CincyBillsFan]

31 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Are we positive Allen is “on that level” of a multiple MVP, multiple SB MVP winner?

I am positive because he puts up MVP numbers every year and wins big games in December & January.  That he can't get over the last hurdle says more about McD and the defensive oriented structure of the Bills then any failings of Allen.

 

Consider Allen's total (regular season & playoffs) yardage/TD stats the last 4 seasons:

 

2020: 5927; 51

2021: 5941; 51

2022: 5707; 46

2023: 5365; 51

 

Four straight seasons with over 5000 yards and three o four seasons with over 50 TD's.  And he's put these numbers up with at best average offensive talent round him. Extraordinary.

 

 

 

[Captain Hindsight]

22 hours ago, FireChans said:

Allen was never making the AFCCG as a rookie in 2018.

 

Do you not remember how different these dudes’ 2018’s were lol. Josh had like 10 passing TD’s, Mahomes had 50.

Ok so 5 straight 

[FireChans]

14 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said:

I am positive because he puts up MVP numbers every year and wins big games in December & January.  That he can't get over the last hurdle says more about McD and the defensive oriented structure of the Bills then any failings of Allen.

 

Consider Allen's total (regular season & playoffs) yardage/TD stats the last 4 seasons:

 

2020: 5927; 51

2021: 5941; 51

2022: 5707; 46

2023: 5365; 51

 

Four straight seasons with over 5000 yards and three o four seasons with over 50 TD's.  And he's put these numbers up with at best average offensive talent round him. Extraordinary.

 

 

 

Prior to this season, Diggs was a top 5 WR.

 

For all the big games Allen wins in January, he wears every divisional loss as well.

[CincyBillsFan]

2 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Prior to this season, Diggs was a top 5 WR.

 

For all the big games Allen wins in January, he wears every divisional loss as well.

One top offensive player dose not make an offense above average if the O line and the other skill players lag behind. Or are you suggesting that Allen had a good O line through most of those seasons?

 

IMO Allen doesn't own any of the Divisional losses. 

 

Edited January 25 by CincyBillsFan

[FireChans]

Just now, CincyBillsFan said:

One top offensive player doe not make an offense above average if the O line and the other skill players lag behind. Or are you suggesting that Allen had a good O line through most o those seasons?

 

IMO Allen doesn't own any of the Divisional losses. 

 

Allen had a pretty good OL in 2020 and 2023, yeah. In 2021 and 2022 there was some regression and poor OL play that Allen was covering for.

 

You know who has had really spotty OT play all year? Mahomes. 
 

Our OL on average was probably a little better than his this year. Our weapons on average were better than his this year. We still lost. He still outplayed Allen. That’s why this one hurt the most.

[Albany,n.y.]

I think of a different scenario. Instead of trading the pick, the Bills draft Mahomes.  The next year Arizona drafts Josh Allen & they are not in the same conference.  With the subtraction of Mahomes in KC and in Buffalo instead, and Allen in the NFC, plus the additional draft choices the Bills would have had in the 2018 draft, do the Bills have one or more Lombardis?  Does Allen get Arizona to any Super Bowls?  Every time KC knocks us out, I feel like we created the monster in KC with the 2017 trade. 

[Brand J]

30 minutes ago, Ramza86 said:

 

One of my issues with this team the last 5 years is that drawing up plays that got players open wasnt at the place we needed it to be at.

 

When you watch some of the good offensive coaches/OCs you can see the difference on them getting players open.

 

ok this is a little unfair...but look at a kyle shannahan offense. Youre telling me Josh is too dumb to run that offense?

Your eyes go where the ball is. You think because Josh isn’t throwing it, there must not be anyone open. Someone somewhere is almost open on just about every play, the defense can’t take everyone away but whoever it is that won the route doesn’t always get the ball. Whether that’s because the open player is only a yard or two past the LoS, or maybe downfield but Josh didn’t see him, or got pressured, I mean there are a number of variables.
 

Bills have ran a number of rub/pick plays and the ball hasn’t gone to the receiver who got open as a result. It’s on film. I believe it was Dawson Knox in the Patriots loss who was wide open in the endzone after getting a pick and the ball never went to him. Shakir had one where Davis picked his man and was pointing emphatically. We do have guys get open. This is not to say the scheme doesn’t need to work on the finer details. As Warner pointed out in his video analysis receivers aren’t running routes correctly at times to force advantageous leverage. That’s on the OC and the receivers coach to fix. 
 

As to whether Josh could run a Shanahan offense, of course he could. But it may look completely different from the way Purdy and Tua run it. Those are first read QBs, they know where they want to go with the ball before the snap based on the look. If that read is taken away, the offense doesn’t look as smooth. Knowing and understanding where you want to go is part of film study and Josh has admitted he prefers to play instinctually rather than hang out in the film room diagnosing defenses. For comparisons sake, the offense the Bills ran under Daboll, Dorsey, and now Joe Brady, is mostly the same offense Tom Brady ran in New England, but I think we can admit the way a Tom Brady offense is ran is quite different than with Josh Allen at the helm. Tom said he was the biggest film junkie, he was always breaking down tape of what defenses were doing. When he got into the game he had such an understanding of where he wanted to go with the ball, it was frequently out of his hands before the DL had an opportunity to make a play. I’d be surprised if Josh isn’t at or near the top of the league in terms of time spent holding the ball. I do think he needs to become better pre snap to elevate his game even more. And when I say elevate, I mostly mean “raise his floor” as his ceiling is as high as any QB who has ever played the game.

[Billever76]

18 hours ago, Mikie2times said:

Andy Reid went 20 years without winning a Super Bowl. His playoff record was was 11-13. KC drafted Mahomes, since that time he has two Super Bowl wins and is 13-3 in the playoffs. Why does everybody think it's Andy Reid or the roster? The clear smoking gun is Mahomes, just like it was Brady in New England. 

 

So if Allen is on that level what is holding Buffalo back? I don't believe we can conclude it's the roster. Patriots and Chiefs didn't win all those Super Bowls because the roster. For my dollar Reid and Belichick help. Sean hurts. What happens when you partner a hall of fame QB with a crappy head coach? Divisional losses. 

Coaching first and foremost is holding Bills back ...schemes are not on the level of the top teams....and 2nd we haven't really got lucky on the injury front and entered the post season healthy.......

23 hours ago, FireChans said:

Allen was never making the AFCCG as a rookie in 2018.

 

Do you not remember how different these dudes’ 2018’s were lol. Josh had like 10 passing TD’s, Mahomes had 50.

And mahomes wasn't a rookie in 2018

[Billever76]

17 hours ago, BullBuchanan said:

Allen would have won Super Bowls and probably an MVP, but he wouldn't have come close to what Mahomes is done.

Physically, they're pretty much equal. Mentally, Mahomes has a significant edge.

Mahomes and the Bills would have beaten Allen and the Chiefs last week, and he definitely beats the Bengals last year.

Our defense forced 1 punt on kc lol....so you think allen on kc wouldn't shred the soft zone zero pressure defense of ours? McDermott’s defense has forced 5 total punts in our last 4 playoff losses....allen would eat up a defense that can't generate pressure.....when have we watched allen sit in clean pockets and not be able to make the other team pay for the lack of pass rush?

[Mikie2times]

11 hours ago, BullBuchanan said:

"Anecdotal based on nothing"?

Son, I put out cold hard stats out there that you're blindly choosing to ignore. Andy Reid has one of, if not the most the most impressive coaching resumes in history. Are you Alex Smith?

Who calls people son?

 

You place your own theory on why the numbers are the way they're as if your theory matters. I just posted numbers which you don't have to interpret.   

[Scott7975]

4 hours ago, Ramza86 said:

 

One of my issues with this team the last 5 years is that drawing up plays that got players open wasnt at the place we needed it to be at.

 

When you watch some of the good offensive coaches/OCs you can see the difference on them getting players open.

 

ok this is a little unfair...but look at a kyle shannahan offense. Youre telling me Josh is too dumb to run that offense?

 

He isn't dumb at all.  I wouldn't put him on the processing level of Brady or Mahomes but he is far from dumb.  Sometimes Josh made the wrong read yup.  All QBs do though.  Part of the problem was also spacing issues.  The offense makes a defender in conflict.  The DB had to choose to commit to covering one receiver or the other.  Josh needed to read that.  The problem is that a lot of times the spacing was so close that the defender wasn't truly in conflict at all.  He could sit almost in the middle of the two players and jump either receiver when the ball was thrown.

 

Josh is an enigma.  A unicorn.  There is a lot of access to film now.  Fans have grown into scrutinizing and nit picking every single play.  The media nitpicks every single play because its Josh Allen.  I don't think this happens for any other QB in the media really.  Maybe it does and because I am a Bills fan, I don't see it but I have never seen a QB get so nit picked on every single play.  That just magnifies the bad when a team loses games.  In Allen's case it even does so in the wins. 

 

I assure people that bad plays happen for all QBs.  We seen Mahomes over throw 2 TDs in this game alone.  It wasn't even his only two mistakes.  If they lost that game I doubt Mahomes is looked at as harsh as Josh is almost every week.  Instead of the receiver drops being magnified... or even talked about really, we are nit picking where he should have thrown the ball 2 yards beyond the los instead.  Think people do that for Mahomes?  Hell no, they say ohh his receiver dropped a TD pass.

Edited January 25 by Scott7975

[UKBillFan]

9 minutes ago, Scott7975 said:

 

He isn't dumb at all.  I wouldn't put him on the processing level of Brady or Mahomes but he is far from dumb.  Sometimes Josh made the wrong read yup.  All QBs do though.  Part of the problem was also spacing issues.  The offense makes a defender in conflict.  The DB had to choose to commit to covering one receiver or the other.  Josh needed to read that.  The problem is that a lot of times the spacing was so close that the defender wasn't truly in conflict at all.  He could sit almost in the middle of the two players and jump either receiver when the ball was thrown.

 

Josh is an enigma.  A unicorn.  There is a lot of access to film now.  Fans have grown into scrutinizing and nit picking every single play.  The media nitpicks every single play because its Josh Allen.  I don't think this happens for any other QB in the media really.  Maybe it does and because I am a Bills fan, I don't see it but I have never seen a QB get so nit picked on every single play.  That just magnifies the bad when a team loses games.  In Allen's case it even does so in the wins. 

 

I assure people that bad plays happen for all QBs.  We seen Mahomes over throw 2 TDs in this game alone.  It wasn't even his only two mistakes.  If they lost that game I doubt Mahomes is looked at as harsh as Josh is almost every week.  Instead of the receiver drops being magnified... or even talked about really, we are nit picking where he should have thrown the ball 2 yards beyond the los instead.  Think people do that for Mahomes?  Hell no, they say ohh his receiver dropped a TD pass.

 

Yes, because in the media's eyes he's earned it. He's got Super Bowl rings. He's been awarded the MVP. Josh has neither. Add that to the media running him down pre draft and it's a heady concoction.

 

The Bills do not have a problem at QB. Worse QBs than Josh have won the Super Bowl. But year by year, fairly or unfairly, the 2017 draft looms large. What if... if only... Especially in the sliding doors scenario @Albany,n.y. brings up above.

 

Personally, as talented as he is, I don't think Mahomes' personality would suit Buffalo. In comparison, Josh is a Bill through and through.

[colin]

21 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Do you not remember how bad the Bills roster was, especially at the offensive skill positions?  Also, 2018 was Mahomes 2nd year where he had 2 full camps, 1 full season under his belt and played in one regular season game already.  Plus he had 2 HOF weapons in Hill and Kelce with one of the greatest offensive minds and QB developers in history.  

 

Allen had squat...fat KB and a mentally shot Zay Jones who couldn't get open or catch.  

 

true, but the oline was worse.

[DuckyBoys]

Patrick Mahomes has a passer rating of 79.7 with 738 yards, 5 touchdowns and 4 interceptions in 3 games in Super Bowls in his career.   We saying Josh would have fared worse than that if McDermott held his side of the bargain in the playoffs?

[Lifefan1]

On 1/24/2024 at 6:33 PM, CincyBillsFan said:

No one is disputing that Mahomes wouldn't win what is up for discussion is whether or not Mahomes would be going to AFCC games every year and winning a couple of Super Bowls in Buffalo.  After all Allen wins a lot of games and has led the Bills to 5 straight playoff appearances and 4 straight division titles.  I have no doubt that Mahomes would have equaled that production under McD had he been here.

 

As an aside I shudder at the thought of the offense Reid would fashion with Allen.

 

 

How do you think Reid would utilize Allen? What would he do with Allen that the Bills aren't doing now?

[C.Biscuit97]

On 1/25/2024 at 11:45 AM, Albany,n.y. said:

I think of a different scenario. Instead of trading the pick, the Bills draft Mahomes.  The next year Arizona drafts Josh Allen & they are not in the same conference.  With the subtraction of Mahomes in KC and in Buffalo instead, and Allen in the NFC, plus the additional draft choices the Bills would have had in the 2018 draft, do the Bills have one or more Lombardis?  Does Allen get Arizona to any Super Bowls?  Every time KC knocks us out, I feel like we created the monster in KC with the 2017 trade. 

Mahomes wins a SB in Buffalo. I don’t think Allen is close to the same player in Arizona. The bills were a very good situation to get drafted to: playoff team, top 5 defense every year, 

 

mahomes was a more polished player than Allen entering the nfl. He carried an awful defense in college. Some fans forget that Allen wasn’t close to the player he is now when he entered the league. The Bills, especially Daboll, deserve a ton of credit in how they developed him into the player he is. Now, he doesn’t need that development. But far too many fans forget the bills did a textbook example of how to successfully develop a raw qb, which is crazy because it was the Bills. 

On 1/25/2024 at 3:53 PM, DuckyBoys said:

Patrick Mahomes has a passer rating of 79.7 with 738 yards, 5 touchdowns and 4 interceptions in 3 games in Super Bowls in his career.   We saying Josh would have fared worse than that if McDermott held his side of the bargain in the playoffs?

This is our new Brady. Well even though he won 7 SBs, he wasn’t really that good! 

[JerseyBills]

I have no freaking idea

 

I find anyone with a definitive answer to have low football i.q 

[C.Biscuit97]

Just now, JerseyBills said:

I have no freaking idea

 

I find anyone with a definitive answer to have low football i.q 

It’s a message board so this is type of stuff you talk about. But it’s along the lines of if I asked out Susie in 5th grade, my life would be so much different now! 

[Nextmanup]

On 1/24/2024 at 1:01 PM, Lifefan1 said:

After a few days here, I got to thinking. What would happen if the coaches stayed where they are, but Allen and Mahomes switched teams? Or the opposite, the rosters stayed the same, but Reid and McDermott switched places? Which team would be better off? I guess the real question here is: Is what Reid does with the KC offense (creating decisions for the defense that gets players like Kelsey open in tough situations, or getting big runs when needed...) something that is tailored just to Mahomes and his skill set? Or would Allen be just as successful in that offense? Would Mahomes be just as dynamic in Brady's offense here? I guess my real frustration comes from watching teams like the Chiefs get players open in space, when we appear to have so much trouble getting that open space? Is it scheme (from the coaches calling plays), or is it talent (running the plays called)?

Is it the Jimmys and Joes, or the Xs and Os?!?!?!?

 

If Reid comes here, we get a championship; Reid would have a field day tailoring an offense around Josh and what he brings to the table.

 

Mahomes is the best in the game and the KC team overall is excellent.  If McDermott goes there, they might get a SB, but it would be a lot harder, and it would only happen 1 time instead of 3 or 4 more times with Reid.

 

 

[C.Biscuit97]

Just now, Nextmanup said:

Is it the Jimmys and Joes, or the Xs and Os?!?!?!?

 

If Reid comes here, we get a championship; Reid would have a field day tailoring an offense around Josh and what he brings to the table.

 

Mahomes is the best in the game and the KC team overall is excellent.  If McDermott goes there, they might get a SB, but it would be a lot harder, and it would only happen 1 time instead of 3 or 4 more times with Reid.

 

 

Reid had zero SB wins before Mahomes. I believe if you take away Mahomes, McDermott has a higher win % than McDermott, who did make the playoffs without Allen (obviously I think Reid is a better coach but McDermott has been good too). 

[FilthyBeast]

This is always going to be an interesting debate because many feel that Mahomes wouldn't be Mahomes without Andy Reid, and at one point I probably would have agreed 100% but not after what Mahomes has done these last 2 years because he's proving to be a transcendental talent like Brady.

 

Everyone said he wouldn't win without Tyreek Hill, he immediately went on to win a superbowl right after he left. Everyone said this year he wouldn't win without Eric Biemeny and at the very least he made it to an AFCCG (and probably ultimately another Lombardi).

 

Going forward it will be he won't win without Chris Jones, Kelce, Reid, etc but all he keeps doing is winning and killing narratives just like the road playoff game nonsense last week in Buffalo.

 

Regarding swapping Mahomes and Allen, we'll never truly know but it's probably a safe bet to assume that Allen has been to at least one superbowl in KC by now and Mahomes delivers at least one championship to Buffalo. And for me there's no real debate about who the better QB is and probably always will be and why anyone saying they wouldn't go back in time and draft Mahomes instead of trading that pick to the Chiefs is in denial.

[st pete gogolak]

The quarterback debate is, well, stupid.  It’s not Conners v. McEnroe.  The question I always ask is if the QB’s changed teams would the outcome be different.  If Manning and Brady changed teams would Brady still have six rings with the Colts?  Of course not.  How many would Manning have if he played for the Pats?  A hell of a lot closer to six than the one he won for the Colts.  Would the Bills have beaten the Cowboys if Aikman played for the Bills and Kelly played for the Cowboys?  Of course not.  Same with Allen and Mahones. Do you really believe the Bills win a Super Bowl if Mahones had been our QB the last five years?  Do you really believe Allen doesn’t win a Super Bowl being coached by Reid and throwing to Hill and Kelce?  The ongoing arguments are pretty damn stupid. 

[FireChans]

Just now, st pete gogolak said:

The quarterback debate is, well, stupid.  It’s not Conners v. McEnroe.  The question I always ask is if the QB’s changed teams would the outcome be different.  If Manning and Brady changed teams would Brady still have six rings with the Colts?  Of course not.  How many would Manning have if he played for the Pats?  A hell of a lot closer to six than the one he won for the Colts.  Would the Bills have beaten the Cowboys if Aikman played for the Bills and Kelly played for the Cowboys?  Of course not.  Same with Allen and Mahones. Do you really believe the Bills win a Super Bowl if Mahones had been our QB the last five years?  Do you really believe Allen doesn’t win a Super Bowl being coached by Reid and throwing to Hill and Kelce?  The ongoing arguments are pretty damn stupid. 

Manning would probably have more rings but not as many as Brady.

 

Aikman for sure would have won us a Super Bowl, Jim was a choker.

[Success]

10 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Manning would probably have more rings but not as many as Brady.

 

Aikman for sure would have won us a Super Bowl, Jim was a choker.

 

Dude.....

 

[st pete gogolak]

14 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Manning would probably have more rings but not as many as Brady.

 

Aikman for sure would have won us a Super Bowl, Jim was a choker.

This is sarcasm, right?  Sometimes it’s hard to tell.

[FireChans]

6 minutes ago, Success said:

 

Dude.....

 

 

2 minutes ago, st pete gogolak said:

This is sarcasm, right?  Sometimes it’s hard to tell.

Jim Kelly’s SB numbers. 2 TD’s 7 INT’s across 4 games.

 

Guy threw 21 TD’s to 28 picks in the postseason in 17 games.

 

Troy Aikman in his 3 Super Bowl games, 4 TD’s 1 INT.

 

Troy had 23 TD’s to 17 picks in the postseason in 16 games.

Yeah, kinda clear who was the best here.

It’s not surprising that folks who think Kelly was better in the postseason than Aikman also think Josh Allen is better than Mahomes. 

[Success]

11 minutes ago, FireChans said:

 

Jim Kelly’s SB numbers. 2 TD’s 7 INT’s across 4 games.

 

Guy threw 21 TD’s to 28 picks in the postseason in 17 games.

 

Troy Aikman in his 3 Super Bowl games, 4 TD’s 1 INT.

 

Troy had 23 TD’s to 17 picks in the postseason in 16 games.

Yeah, kinda clear who was the best here.

It’s not surprising that folks who think Kelly was better in the postseason than Aikman also think Josh Allen is better than Mahomes. 

 

Context.

 

It's a thing.

 

[FireChans]

4 minutes ago, Success said:

 

Context.

 

It's a thing.

 

If only Jim Kelly had a HoF supporting cast.

 

Also, in what context is more picks than touchdowns good? At dinner with Mark Sanchez?

[Success]

2 minutes ago, FireChans said:

If only Jim Kelly had a HoF supporting cast.

 

Also, in what context is more picks than touchdowns good? At dinner with Mark Sanchez?

 

No GM in history would take Aikman over Kelly.

 

How's about that context?

 

[FireChans]

Just now, Success said:

 

No GM in history would take Aikman over Kelly.

 

How's about that context?

 

They would have in the playoffs.

[CincyBillsFan]

3 hours ago, Lifefan1 said:

How do you think Reid would utilize Allen? What would he do with Allen that the Bills aren't doing now?

First off Allen would have walked into a situation with two first ballot HOF skill players to throw the ball to. 

 

Second, Reid would not put a governor on Allen in situations where he was trying to protect an ailing defense.  Reid's response would have been to turn Allen lose and win a shootout.

 

Third, Reid would have provided better play calling and play design throughout Allen's tenure. 

 

Fourth, Reid would have fielded a better O line throughout the last 6years.  Imagine Allen with a fraction of a second longer on his passes.

 

Fifth, Reid would have found ways to best utilize Allen's running ability and cannon of an arm.

 

 

 

 

[st pete gogolak]

1 hour ago, FireChans said:

They would have in the playoffs.

You could have had a genetic hybrid of Montana and Brady QB’ing the Bills in the Cowboy Super Bowls and you ain’t beating the Cowboys. Kelly was actually pretty good in the last SB. The loss certainly wasn’t on him.

[it is what it is]

Instead of this mahomes/Reid/Allen/McDermott debate.  Which QB will win a Superbowl 1st between Josh Allen or Justin Herbert.  I'm picking Herbert not because he is a better player but he's got a great coach that knows how to win. 

[zow2]

Allen is a ridiculous freak of a player not just a QB. He’s so much better then Cam Newton or Big Ben or all these other people in the past that he’s compared to.  I don’t think he’s a stand in the pocket guy to pick teams apart. He’s a football player.

 

Mahomes is an amazing QB, i think he sees the entire D moving in slow motion.  He makes so many great throws from in and out of the pocket with accuracy.  Sorry but he has the clutch gene over all the other guys out there.

[Mikey]

Biggest weakness on Buffalo Bills is the head coach Sean McDermott by a good margin. That game against KC was in Bills control and McDermott went away from the game plan as usual that was working then decided to take idiotic risks such as the fake punt on their own territory which can be argued was moot because of the replay fumble but changed the landscape of field position and flow of the game after that.

 

Bad game planning piss poor play calling and abysmal time management has been a staple of this team in the mcdermott era.

 

The rosters being same and simply switch Andy Reid for Sean McDermott and Bills are playing in AFC Championship far more frequently. Now gonna throw out there would “win” SuperBowl because we just don’t know how Josh Allen performs on that stage-