Bills and Cheat Motion

[Irv]

Watching tonight’s TNF game.  Seems like Rams running cheat/forward motion on half their passing plays.  Wondering why a) why that is not called illegal forward motion in the NFL and b) if it’s legal why don’t we do it?  If we do it, I don’t remember seeing it.  GO BILLS!

[JohnNord]

Just now, Irv said:

Watching tonight’s TNF game.  Seems like Rams running cheat/forward motion on half their passing plays.  Wondering why a) why that is not called illegal forward motion in the NFL and b) if it’s legal why don’t we do it?  If we do it, I don’t remember seeing it.  GO BILLS!

I thick it’s one of those calls like holding or Offside which happens quite often (if not an every play).  Rather than slowing the game for every instance, the small infractions like a WR’a foot lined up in front of the football are ignored.  I’d assume it’s the same with this motion

[Orlando Tim]

2 minutes ago, JohnNord said:

I thick it’s one of those calls like holding or Offside which happens quite often (if not an every play).  Rather than slowing the game for every instance, the small infractions like a WR’a foot lined up in front of the football are ignored.  I’d assume it’s the same with this motion

I had to look up what cheat motion was before commenting and it is the short motions of outside guys and snapping it when they are still moving lateral but most guys that they use cheat motion with are the speedsters, so it would be useful with Harty types.

[boyst]

The NFL is and has been moving slowly toward the NBA trend for a while. 30 years ago they'd call false start for a lineman moving his head. Now they turn around. Look around, point and only for the split second before the snap is there a "set" designation for the alignment.

 

This, as well as the picks, offensive push offs, defensive holding are major problems newer to the game.

 

Holding has always been there and the best OL hold almost every single play. 

[Big Turk]

1 hour ago, Irv said:

Watching tonight’s TNF game.  Seems like Rams running cheat/forward motion on half their passing plays.  Wondering why a) why that is not called illegal forward motion in the NFL and b) if it’s legal why don’t we do it?  If we do it, I don’t remember seeing it.  GO BILLS!

I've seen this happening for years now and it's never called.

[MJS]

I've actually noticed this a bunch this year. Lots of guys in motion and begin moving forward before the snap, or they are running laterally, but at an angle towards the line of scrimmage which means they are technically moving forward.

 

We might see a point of emphasis on this next year, because it is getting kind of sloppy out there.

37 minutes ago, Big Turk said:

I've seen this happening for years now and it's never called.

Me too, but I think it has gotten a lot worse this year.

[GunnerBill]

We ran one with Diggs in one of the last two games. I think it was at KC but might have been Dallas. We didn't actually execute it very well and I think we got like a very small gain. 

[thenorthremembers]

It's a misnomer.   As long as the player is moving laterally and not towards the line of scrimmage when the ball is snapped its completely legal.  I use it like crazy when coaching.   It creates misdirection and allows your fast players to have momentum rather than sprinting from a dead stop.

[Irv]

1 minute ago, thenorthremembers said:

It's a misnomer.   As long as the player is moving laterally and not towards the line of scrimmage when the ball is snapped its completely legal.  I use it like crazy when coaching.   It creates misdirection and allows your fast players to have momentum rather than sprinting from a dead stop.

No. You're missing the point.  Watch almost every pass play the Rams ran last night when they had a guy in motion.  The were always moving at an angle towards the line of scrimmage.  

[thenorthremembers]

11 minutes ago, Irv said:

No. You're missing the point.  Watch almost every pass play the Rams ran last night when they had a guy in motion.  The were always moving at an angle towards the line of scrimmage.  

I see.  I watched last night but wasn't paying much attention because the Saints are incredibly boring.

 

Took a look back at some highlights.  I didn't see many instances where I thought the motion man wasn't running parallel to the line of scrimmage however I do see where Nakua seemed to angle his body towards the tackle before the snap.  Probably could have called it by the rule.   

 

May be something the NFL wants to look at during the off-season because coaches will start to bend the rule if it isn't called consistently.  

[Rich Stadium Original]

Sometime teams/players make a run at bending the rules until the NFL figures it out.  Another trend lately seems to be the tackles coming out of their stances just a fraction before the ball is snapped to gain a little advantage in pass protection.  Seems to be spreading too until they start flagging it.

[thenorthremembers]

1 minute ago, Rich Stadium Original said:

Sometime teams/players make a run at bending the rules until the NFL figures it out.  Another trend lately seems to be the tackles coming out of their stances just a fraction before the ball is snapped to gain a little advantage in pass protection.  Seems to be spreading too until they start flagging it.

Noticed this a ton this year.  They are into their kick before the ball is snapped and it's hardly ever called.

[Da webster guy]

personally i wish they would dump half of these types of penalties that involve gray areas that are sometimes called and sometimes not.

 

Too many rules these poor officials are trying to judge holding and pass interference, illlegal hits in real time, player intent etc.   If I ran the league here's what I would do:

 

Get rid of illegal man downfield rules, get rid of the cheat forward penalty (just limit player to having to be 5 yards within LOS so they dont get a massive headstart), the offensive linemen cant move at all like the old days (no more of this pointing and head turning crap), get rid of the Tush push for the same reason you cant climb on a teammates back to block a kick- and also it's going to end a qb's career sooner than later.

 

Outside of the rules changes, I would quit stopping the game to announce to everyone a penalty that is clearly being declined.   Pick up the flag, motion to the head coach what the call is and if they decline it, the clock starts and we go on with the game.   Nobody cares about a penalty that isn't affecting the game, lets get more flow into the game.

 

Lastly, now that you asked (haha) has anyone noticed they use a more orange-ish looking ball for kicks and the mud brown ones for normal play?   The contrasting lighter color is way easier to see than the dark ball, so at the very least use those balls for regular play.  Its bad enough we got rid of the college white stripe and use a ball that is THE most difficult color to see, the least they can do is lighten it up.  We're all staring at the thing after all.   

 

The ball really should be even lighter for these networks who are too dumb to film the FG kicks from the stands with the green field as contrast.    I mean sometimes games (and the entire season maybe) comes down to a final kick and you can barely tell if its between the uprights because the ball disappears against the crowd so you literally have to look at the refs to see what happened.  That's a huge fail.  Brighter footballs please.    Duh.  

[Sherlock Holmes]

14 hours ago, boyst said:

The NFL is and has been moving slowly toward the NBA trend for a while. 30 years ago they'd call false start for a lineman moving his head. Now they turn around. Look around, point and only for the split second before the snap is there a "set" designation for the alignment.

 

This, as well as the picks, offensive push offs, defensive holding are major problems newer to the game.

 

Holding has always been there and the best OL hold almost every single play. 

Is that what Torrence's arm swipe before the ball is snapped is?

[That's No Moon]

15 hours ago, Irv said:

Watching tonight’s TNF game.  Seems like Rams running cheat/forward motion on half their passing plays.  Wondering why a) why that is not called illegal forward motion in the NFL and b) if it’s legal why don’t we do it?  If we do it, I don’t remember seeing it.  GO BILLS!

This is another example of something they USED to call but as OCs have figured out that theyve stopped calling it they've used it more. This isn't the CFL, that is a penalty. They are clearly consciously ignoring it because it's an easy call and it right out in the open with everyone looking at it. Add it to the OT in the backfield on every snap that they ignore.

4 hours ago, Irv said:

No. You're missing the point.  Watch almost every pass play the Rams ran last night when they had a guy in motion.  The were always moving at an angle towards the line of scrimmage.  

Yep. Miami does it too. All the time.

[mikemac2001]

1 hour ago, That's No Moon said:

This is another example of something they USED to call but as OCs have figured out that theyve stopped calling it they've used it more. This isn't the CFL, that is a penalty. They are clearly consciously ignoring it because it's an easy call and it right out in the open with everyone looking at it. Add it to the OT in the backfield on every snap that they ignore.

Yep. Miami does it too. All the time.

Yep a lot of teams do it and is technically a penalty but I think the league doesn’t want to get into calling it yet - until an obvious play happens and it gets magnified 

[Bferra13]

16 hours ago, boyst said:

The NFL is and has been moving slowly toward the NBA trend for a while. 30 years ago they'd call false start for a lineman moving his head. Now they turn around. Look around, point and only for the split second before the snap is there a "set" designation for the alignment.

 

This, as well as the picks, offensive push offs, defensive holding are major problems newer to the game.

 

Holding has always been there and the best OL hold almost every single play. 

And tackles now false start every play getting a head start. Not typically called either. I remember Jacksonville doing it to us a few years ago, now everyone (including Bills) do it.

Edited December 22, 2023 by Bferra13

[warrior9]

6 hours ago, Irv said:

No. You're missing the point.  Watch almost every pass play the Rams ran last night when they had a guy in motion.  The were always moving at an angle towards the line of scrimmage.  

I have to assume it's because the shoulders aren't getting square to the line. I noticed it too.. It's almost like they're "rounding" in to it. I wonder if that's a "loop hole" ..

 

But I agree, it would be very advantageous for Hill to do that, Lamb, etc etc. However, just like the Chiefs and their LT lining up in the backfield essentially, it'll get called and they'll stop. 

[That's No Moon]

5 minutes ago, warrior9 said:

I have to assume it's because the shoulders aren't getting square to the line. I noticed it too.. It's almost like they're "rounding" in to it. I wonder if that's a "loop hole" ..

 

But I agree, it would be very advantageous for Hill to do that, Lamb, etc etc. However, just like the Chiefs and their LT lining up in the backfield essentially, it'll get called and they'll stop. 

It's not a loop hole. You can't be moving towards the LOS at the snap. It's been that way since there has been football in this country. It's illegal motion. If you do move towards the line you have to stop and become set before the snap.

 

What it is, is the league manipulating outcomes in games. Clearly the refs have been told to ignore this, and they are. They will until there is an uproar about it when someone goes full CFL motion in a playoff game and it goes uncalled. At that point they will make some sort of BS statement about how it's been a rule all along, then the following week they'll call the hell out of it to prove their point.

Edited December 22, 2023 by That's No Moon

[warrior9]

11 minutes ago, That's No Moon said:

It's not a loop hole. You can't be moving towards the LOS at the snap. It's been that way since there has been football in this country. It's illegal motion. If you do move towards the line you have to stop and become set before the snap.

 

What it is, is the league manipulating outcomes in games. Clearly the refs have been told to ignore this, and they are. They will until there is an uproar about it when someone goes full CFL motion in a playoff game and it goes uncalled. At that point they will make some sort of BS statement about how it's been a rule all along, then the following week they'll call the hell out of it to prove their point.

Thanks, Mr. Official.... i know the rules VERY well, I know the calls very well, I know the game very well. You're not some savant because you know what illegal motion is. This is a discussion forum and I'm also trying to figure out why it's not called, hence, maybe McVay found that "rounding" a motion won't get called (which is why i put loop hole in quotes). This is not manipulation of games.. this isn't a conspiracy theory. Get off your high horse. 

 

Edited December 22, 2023 by warrior9

[Dan]

I thought the OLine was all supposed to be within a yard of the LOS.. but it seems everyone just has one lineman slightly behind the next, by the time you get to the tackle, he’s usually 2 yards off the ball.  Look at the infamous KC offensive Offside play, for ex.    Am I seeing this all wrong?

[Old Coot]

18 hours ago, Irv said:

Watching tonight’s TNF game.  Seems like Rams running cheat/forward motion on half their passing plays

They are running a CFL-type offense.

[That's No Moon]

30 minutes ago, warrior9 said:

Thanks, Mr. Official.... i know the rules VERY well, I know the calls very well, I know the game very well. You're not some savant because you know what illegal motion is. This is a discussion forum and I'm also trying to figure out why it's not called, hence, maybe McVay found that "rounding" a motion won't get called (which is why i put loop hole in quotes). This is not manipulation of games.. this isn't a conspiracy theory. Get off your high horse. 

 

Then you explain why the referees, all of them, stopped making an obvious call all at once.

22 minutes ago, Dan said:

I thought the OLine was all supposed to be within a yard of the LOS.. but it seems everyone just has one lineman slightly behind the next, by the time you get to the tackle, he’s usually 2 yards off the ball.  Look at the infamous KC offensive Offside play, for ex.    Am I seeing this all wrong?

Nope. You're seeing it correctly.

[boyst]

6 hours ago, Sherlock Holmes said:

Is that what Torrence's arm swipe before the ball is snapped is?

Yes.

4 hours ago, Bferra13 said:

And tackles now false start every play getting a head start. Not typically called either. I remember Jacksonville doing it to us a few years ago, now everyone (including Bills) do it.

I'm waiting for the league to develop a system where the center snaps the ball at the first flinch movement of the fellow OL

[Ralonzo]

5 hours ago, Bferra13 said:

And tackles now false start every play getting a head start. Not typically called either. I remember Jacksonville doing it to us a few years ago, now everyone (including Bills) do it.

 

That was Jawaan Taylor back when nobody was really scrutinizing him because he was in friggin Jacksonville. Now in KC (#74) and in the national spotlight after his week 1 debacle and committing illegal formation and/or false start nearly every snap and hardly getting called for it because it's KC. Same guy.

[Sherlock Holmes]

1 hour ago, boyst said:

Yes.

I'm waiting for the league to develop a system where the center snaps the ball at the first flinch movement of the fellow OL

So if somebody jumps Offside when he does it they get called theoretically and not Torrence? I keep thinking, man he's gonna get called...

[boyst]

14 minutes ago, Sherlock Holmes said:

So if somebody jumps Offside when he does it they get called theoretically and not Torrence? I keep thinking, man he's gonna get called...

Apparently. It goes against all original football principles. I played different positions on the line much of my growing up years (too heavy to be a ball carrier).

 

If we even turned our head to look at the ball once our hand touched the ground we were flagged. If we flinched at all from the point we went down and the QB either touched the center or put his hands up to catch the shotgun snap... False start.

 

I don't like the way it is trending. Especially because DL are timing off the signal, and exterior lineman who can't fully see or hear go on the signal, not the snap.

[1ManRaid]

12 hours ago, thenorthremembers said:

Noticed this a ton this year.  They are into their kick before the ball is snapped and it's hardly ever called.

 

They are abusing a misinterpretation of the "repositioning" loophole.  Supposedly, as long as the snap gets off before that rear foot lands down, you can't prove they weren't legally repositioning.  Which is ridiculous because anyone with working eyes can tell that they aren't repositioning when they do that but they get the egregious benefit of the doubt.

[Neo]

13 hours ago, That's No Moon said:

It's not a loop hole. You can't be moving towards the LOS at the snap. It's been that way since there has been football in this country. It's illegal motion. If you do move towards the line you have to stop and become set before the snap.

 

What it is, is the league manipulating outcomes in games. Clearly the refs have been told to ignore this, and they are. They will until there is an uproar about it when someone goes full CFL motion in a playoff game and it goes uncalled. At that point they will make some sort of BS statement about how it's been a rule all along, then the following week they'll call the hell out of it to prove their point.

I am glad we found a way to introduce “the league manipulating” into this thread.   The first dozen or so posts failed to address this.   Phewww … I was afraid we were going to have a straightforward tactic vs. rule conversation.

 

I’ll be back later.   I have to remove the fillings from my teeth that the CIA is using to track my whereabouts.

[That's No Moon]

5 hours ago, Neo said:

I am glad we found a way to introduce “the league manipulating” into this thread.   The first dozen or so posts failed to address this.   Phewww … I was afraid we were going to have a straightforward tactic vs. rule conversation.

 

I’ll be back later.   I have to remove the fillings from my teeth that the CIA is using to track my whereabouts.

I await your explanation for this phenomenon.