Defending the brotherly shove

[Watkins90]

2 hours ago, BRH said:

I could see the league banning it *except* on goal-line plays, with the safety angle being “we’re reducing the number of plays where it can be used.”  The league wants scoring, but nobody wants to see that play over and over on 4th and 1 at midfield.  

Why not just make it illegal to push the QB or the person who lines up under center from behind on a designed QB sneak. You can keep the pushing from behind on plays where the running back gets 5 yards and then gets an extra 3 because of the pushes from behind. 

[Your Brown Eye]

I think people do not like it because their team cannot run it as effectively as the Eagles nor stop the Eagles from running it. I think if the shoe was on the other foot and the Bills were the team who ran this play with dominance every time and had a very catchy name for it, fans would have a chubby in their pants every time the Bills ran the play for a first down or touchdown. I bet many would have t-shirts made with the play's name on it, license plates, personalized jersey's etc.

[Watkins90]

6 minutes ago, Your Brown Eye said:

I think people do not like it because their team cannot run it as effectively as the Eagles nor stop the Eagles from running it. I think if the shoe was on the other foot and the Bills were the team who ran this play with dominance every time and had a very catchy name for it, fans would have a chubby in their pants every time the Bills ran the play for a first down or touchdown. I bet many would have t-shirts made with the play's name on it, license plates, personalized jersey's etc.

The funny thing is to me, the Bills used to run this and really effectively. I can remember watching Gabe Davis push Josh Allen into the end zone several times. I just don't think we utilized it on other parts of the field like the Eagles do. 

[Yobogoya!]

21 minutes ago, Watkins90 said:

The funny thing is to me, the Bills used to run this and really effectively. I can remember watching Gabe Davis push Josh Allen into the end zone several times. I just don't think we utilized it on other parts of the field like the Eagles do. 

 

We had a wrinkle early this year where we actually pushed a RB instead of Allen. I think Allen even helped with the push, lol

 

I like that variant even better honestly. 

[TheFunPolice]

could the entire DL pick one side and explode off the ball at an angle so that the OL isn't hitting anyone straight on?

 

The idea being that each DL would be hitting the guy to his right (for example) and maybe mess up the momentum that way?

Edited November 21, 2023 by TheFunPolice

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

32 minutes ago, TheFunPolice said:

could the entire DL pick one side and explode off the ball at an angle so that the OL isn't hitting anyone straight on?

 

The idea being that each DL would be hitting the guy to his right (for example) and maybe mess up the momentum that way?

 

I assume itll get pretty cheap pretty soon in there.  People stomping on hands, twisting fingers and stuff at the bottom, eye pokes etc.  

 

Gonna likely take Hurts getting injured for them to stop doing it.  

35 minutes ago, TheFunPolice said:

could the entire DL pick one side and explode off the ball at an angle so that the OL isn't hitting anyone straight on?

 

The idea being that each DL would be hitting the guy to his right (for example) and maybe mess up the momentum that way?

 

They'll never get off the ball as fast as the eagles so it doesn't matter.  It'll get banned next year and they'll say no more pushing the QB off the snap or something.  

[WhitewalkerInPhilly]

hey guys, do you remember when Gabe Davis shoved Josh from behind and it worked 95% of the time?

[Matt_In_NH]

The Bills have used Davis to do this....but never with the approach that the Eagles do, I don't see any other teams just all out push the guy like they do and I find that surprising.

[folz]

2 hours ago, Watkins90 said:

The funny thing is to me, the Bills used to run this and really effectively. I can remember watching Gabe Davis push Josh Allen into the end zone several times. I just don't think we utilized it on other parts of the field like the Eagles do. 

 

57 minutes ago, WhitewalkerInPhilly said:

hey guys, do you remember when Gabe Davis shoved Josh from behind and it worked 95% of the time?

 

12 minutes ago, Matt_In_NH said:

The Bills have used Davis to do this....but never with the approach that the Eagles do, I don't see any other teams just all out push the guy like they do and I find that surprising.

 

I've been thinking this since I heard the nickname "Brotherly Shove." I was like how did that come about (Philly getting credit or the moniker for this play)? The Bills ran this a number of times last season and I remember announcers saying (at that time) that they had never seen it before (Gabe/a WR helping to push Josh/QB in the end zone) and then, eventually, other teams started to followed suit. Not that it really matters who gets credit (except maybe to Ken Dorsey), but I've been like why is this now Philadelphia's thing? As if they invented it.

[wjag]

Seems to me that the play is designed to go over the left guard/center gap more than the right guard/center gap.  Either way, it doesn't go through the tackle/guard gaps from what I have seen.

 

Why don't teams use a TO on critical 4 and 1 plays like last night on the goal line?  Get bigger guys on the field.  Replace LBs with some beef and keep guys like CBs and DBs in in the event that they mix it up and try to throw it.

 

Try something different.

 

 

[Buffalo_Stampede]

2 hours ago, WideNine said:

 

I disagree.

 

I don't think it is rocket science and it is less a talent thing and more physics.

 

They have 2 300+ lb O-Linemen pushing Hurts and defenses are using 190-200 lbs LBs and Safeties to fill and get push on their DL.

 

The DL will be at a disadvantage every time.

 

It will work till they change the rules, or teams find the right counter punch to nullify the gimmick.

 

The NFL has always been this way aka "sugar huddles" and "wildcats".

 

 

 

 

Every team can’t do it. Why is this so difficult to understand? It’s talent. The Eagles have special talent at the positions needed to consistently run that play.

[MJS]

4 hours ago, mannc said:

Always used to be illegal, until a few years ago…”aiding the runner”.  It’s a matter of time before someone (probably a DT) gets his neck broken in one of those scrums.  It needs to be outlawed now, but the NFL cares nothing about player safety.

It is not more dangerous than a regular QB sneak.

[Buffalo_Stampede]

The Eagles don’t even go extra OL. They have 2 TE’s, that’s it. Watch Kelce. He’s obviously the key to the play. Hurts basically gets on Kelce’s back and then they push forward. You actually have to account for Brown and Smith here. I know the Eagles have a play where Hurts drops back and one of them goes deep.

 

 

Edited November 21, 2023 by Buffalo_Stampede

[Logic]

I hate it.

There's a reason that the NFL is hugely popular and makes billions of dollars in America in rugby is not and does not.

Groups of players pushing another player into a pile with brute force, while the opposition all try to slam their body into a tiny phone booth sized space to stop said player, is not representative of what makes modern pro football great.

Yes, the NFL features two teams competing against each other via feats of sheer force, but that force is skillfully paired with scheme, tactics, athleticism, creativity, and finesse. A pile of guys pushing one guy into another pile of guys is none of those things.

It's an ugly play, it's not representative of what makes modern pro football great and exciting and aesthetically pleasing, and I wish it would be banned entirely.

It actually USED TO be banned, for safety and aesthetics reasons, and only fairly recently became legal again. They should re-ban it, in my opinion, and nothing will change my mind on that.

As to "how to stop it"? You can't. Maybe 1 out of 20 tries you'll get lucky. It's pretty much unstoppable.

 

[BuffaloBillies]

If at the 1 foot line and their push is obviously going to get them in, why not go off-side like 5 times in a row. Just have the nose/DTs crush their OLs before the snap (x5). Half the distance each time, but who cares. Get a few extra hits on them before they do their BS.

[wjag]

https://www.youtube-nocookie.com/embed/SgvYql1OUqs?playlist=SgvYql1OUqs&autoplay=1&iv_load_policy=3&loop=1&start=

 

I found this interesting..  Joe Thomas has a pretty good breakdown of the strategies to stop it.

[mannc]

9 minutes ago, MJS said:

It is not more dangerous than a regular QB sneak.

On what basis do you say that?  I'll confess that I can't tell what's going on in the pile-up, but to me it looks a lot like a collapsed rugby scrum, which is how many serious neck injuries occur in that sport.  I'd be curious to hear the opinions of defensive lineman who have actually had to defend it.   

[MJS]

4 minutes ago, mannc said:

On what basis do you say that?  I'll confess that I can't tell what's going on in the pile-up, but to me it looks a lot like a collapsed rugby scrum, which is how many serious neck injuries occur in that sport.  I'd be curious to hear the opinions of defensive lineman who have actually had to defend it.   

On the basis of the lack of injuries for both traditional QB sneaks and this version of the QB sneak. They are relatively safe plays, mostly because there is very little build up of momentum before impact.

 

The issue with Rugby scrums is that players have their arms linked, connecting the force of those around you and not allowing you to buckle back from the force.

 

I'm sure they will look at the play, but just in watching this happen for a couple of years now, has there been injuries? I believe there were none all last year, and I think there were a couple of giants players injured this year (a center and TE). A few years ago Mahomes was injured on a QB sneak, but Andy Reid admitted it was a freak accident and people don't usually get hurt on sneaks.

 

I would not be surprised if the QB sneak, including the latest version, is actually one of the safest plays in football.

[Buffalo_Stampede]

1 minute ago, MJS said:

On the basis of the lack of injuries for both traditional QB sneaks and this version of the QB sneak. They are relatively safe plays, mostly because there is very little build up of momentum before impact.

 

The issue with Rugby scrums is that players have their arms linked, connecting the force of those around you and not allowing you to buckle back from the force.

 

I'm sure they will look at the play, but just in watching this happen for a couple of years now, has there been injuries? I believe there were none all last year, and I think there were a couple of giants players injured this year (a center and TE). A few years ago Mahomes was injured on a QB sneak, but Andy Reid admitted it was a freak accident and people don't usually get hurt on sneaks.

 

I would not be surprised if the QB sneak, including the latest version, is actually one of the safest plays in football.

A team this year tried the Brotherly Shove  and had like 3 players injured. But people said it’s proof only the Eagles can do it.

[Success]

I hate the idea of banning it, personally.  It's a football play.  Every team has the opportunity to do the same thing.

 

 

[dma0034]

I don't like pushing players at all. Even when it's a rb and the defense has him and the oline starts pushing him for another 5+ yards. I think it should be ruled down. This isn't rugby and pushing people doesn't have any level of sportsmanship in the NFL.

[MJS]

15 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

A team this year tried the Brotherly Shove  and had like 3 players injured. But people said it’s proof only the Eagles can do it.

It was the Giants and they had 2 injured. I mentioned that in my post.

4 minutes ago, dma0034 said:

I don't like pushing players at all. Even when it's a rb and the defense has him and the oline starts pushing him for another 5+ yards. I think it should be ruled down. This isn't rugby and pushing people doesn't have any level of sportsmanship in the NFL.

Why? I just don't get this. How is it bad sportsmanship? How is it any different than blocking? You push people out of the way for the runner, why is it bad to push the runner through? It is essentially the same as blocking.

[Rockpile233]

As a fan…it’s a boring, ugly play. I would support them getting rid of it for that reason alone. 

[ExiledInIllinois]

6 hours ago, Spiderweb said:

I would wholeheartedly ban the pushing of any player feom behind whether they be an offensive or defensive player.

Yeah... Leverage on kicks is illegal, why not here.

5 minutes ago, MJS said:

Why? I just don't get this. How is it bad sportsmanship? How is it any different than blocking? You push people out of the way for the runner, why is it bad to push the runner through? It is essentially the same as blocking.

Physics.  Same team players are going in same direction.  It's easy, especially when a new set if downs lies inches ahead. Offense gets a major advantage.

 

It's easy.  A blocker is facing and opposing force.

[RoyBatty is alive]

The problem with the play is that it morphs into other aspects of football.  The NFL is gradually going to look more and more like rugby with people pushing runners forward.  You see it all all levels now.  There used to be a penalty for "assisting the runner", they was removed a few years ago.  Now  if a runner is stood up people try to push them forward which extends the play which, by definition, will increase the odds of injuries, prima facie.

[Matt_In_NH]

1 hour ago, folz said:

 

 

 

I've been thinking this since I heard the nickname "Brotherly Shove." I was like how did that come about (Philly getting credit or the moniker for this play)? The Bills ran this a number of times last season and I remember announcers saying (at that time) that they had never seen it before (Gabe/a WR helping to push Josh/QB in the end zone) and then, eventually, other teams started to followed suit. Not that it really matters who gets credit (except maybe to Ken Dorsey), but I've been like why is this now Philadelphia's thing? As if they invented it.

Because they use it to almost perfection.  The Bills have incidents like fumbling the ball on a QB sneak to lose a game.  The Eagles use it to win games all the time.

[Gisele]

I'm guessing they'll come out with a rule that will not allow a player to be pushed when he (or she) is between the tackles and within 2 yards of the line of scrimmage.  

 

Edited November 21, 2023 by Gisele

[RoyBatty is alive]

2 minutes ago, Gisele said:

I'm guessing they'll come out with a rule that will not allow a player to be pushed when he (or she) is between the tackles and within 2 yards of the line of scrimmage.  

 

Just reinstate the old one, no "assisting the runner", and that should be anywhere on the field, just not short yardage.

[MJS]

11 minutes ago, ExiledInIllinois said:

Yeah... Leverage on kicks is illegal, why not here.

Physics.  Same team players are going in same direction.  It's easy, especially when a new set if downs lies inches ahead. Offense gets a major advantage.

 

It's easy.  A blocker is facing and opposing force.

So, we are banning plays because they are good? Because they are hard to defend? Better ban any form of QB sneak, then. The physics are the same.

 

The only legitimate issue is if the injury rate is higher. And I don't think it is.

[Old Coot]

1 hour ago, wjag said:

found this interesting..  Joe Thomas has a pretty good breakdown of the strategies to stop it

Thanks for pointing us to Joe Thomas' analysis.

 

I would have thought that the DL getting lower than the OL would stop the OL's push and create a pile but then you must deal with Hurts being pushed to "body surf" on top of the pile. So you need to stop the body surfing. Having your LBs jump over the pile to get to Hurts doesn't work because they are in the air while the pushers are grounded.

 

Thomas' idea of knocking the pushers off Hurts is intriguing.

[Just in Atlanta]

5 hours ago, peterpan said:

Honestly I don’t see a safety concern.  It’s probably one of the safest plays in football.  There’s no momentum.  You aren’t going to push on someone’s leg hard enough to break it.   That force requires a lot of speed.

 

that’s why injuries are way up in the NFl.  Everyone went to these spread offenses, the nfl pushed it thinking it would be safer than “3 yards and a cloud of dust”.  You used to have 300# guys standing still pushing each other, and now you have 225# guys running 25mph getting smacked by other 225# guys going 25 mph in the other direction. 

I agree.

 

QB sneak is one of the safest plays in football.

[Matt_In_NH]

On 11/21/2023 at 1:06 PM, Gisele said:

I'm guessing they'll come out with a rule that will not allow a player to be pushed when he (or she) is between the tackles and within 2 yards of the line of scrimmage.  

 

They talked about it last year and it went no where. 

[nedboy7]

What if Linval was to cannonball onto Hurts’ spine?