Defending the brotherly shove

[Matt_In_NH]

Watching the chiefs game.  I really think the eagles are successful because all guys on offense are working together to push Hurts into the endZone while the defense has a bunch of individuals trying to make a play.   It seems like the defense should match power with power and defenders should push the DTs. No idea if it would work but why not try something different since literally nothing works to defend it.  

[machine gun kelly]

Another thread was started the other day on the tush push, and I’ll repeat what I wrote there.  The referees strategy to slow this down is they are watching encroachment closely as the O Linemen on the Eagles sometimes cheat the LOS.

 

It’s a topic of debate as the potential threat to players neck is high with all of those bodies.  It will probably go away after the year.  A traditional QB sneak is just fine and perfectly legal.

[Spiderweb]

4 minutes ago, machine gun kelly said:

Another thread was started the other day on the tush push, and I’ll repeat what I wrote there.  The referees strategy to slow this down is they are watching encroachment closely as the O Linemen on the Eagles sometimes cheat the LOS.

 

It’s a topic of debate as the potential threat to players neck is high with all of those bodies.  It will probably go away after the year.  A traditional QB sneak is just fine and perfectly legal.

I would wholeheartedly ban the pushing of any player feom behind whether they be an offensive or defensive player.

[Matt_In_NH]

I did. Not see the other thread. If kids want to merge that is fine.  The only way they ban it IMO is player safety.  Is there any data/evidence this play is more unsafe than other plays?   

[North Buffalo]

Yeh much ado about nuthin .... d coaches need to figure a way to stop it is all

[Matt_In_NH]

6 minutes ago, North Buffalo said:

Yeh much ado about nuthin .... d coaches need to figure a way to stop it is all

Did you notice that is the point of the thread?

[BuffaloBillyG]

35 minutes ago, North Buffalo said:

Yeh much ado about nuthin .... d coaches need to figure a way to stop it is all

Best way to stop it is on 1st and 2nd down. Oversimplified, sure. But good defense on the first 2 downs stops any 3rd and short conversion.

[Real McClappy]

It's called a scrum

[Bferra13]

I hope its gone after this year personally. And pretty sure it will be honestly.

[mannc]

1 hour ago, Spiderweb said:

I would wholeheartedly ban the pushing of any player feom behind whether they be an offensive or defensive player.

Always used to be illegal, until a few years ago…”aiding the runner”.  It’s a matter of time before someone (probably a DT) gets his neck broken in one of those scrums.  It needs to be outlawed now, but the NFL cares nothing about player safety.

Edited November 21, 2023 by mannc

[BRH]

I could see the league banning it *except* on goal-line plays, with the safety angle being “we’re reducing the number of plays where it can be used.”  The league wants scoring, but nobody wants to see that play over and over on 4th and 1 at midfield.  

[Ridgewaycynic2013]

Start awarding conditional draft picks for teams victimized by the tactic.

*
To the aggrieved team.  An infraction in Dallas vs. Seattle does not result in New England getting the pick. 🤨

[Matt_In_NH]

4 minutes ago, BRH said:

I could see the league banning it *except* on goal-line plays, with the safety angle being “we’re reducing the number of plays where it can be used.”  The league wants scoring, but nobody wants to see that play over and over on 4th and 1 at midfield.  

It’s not exciting to watch a qb sneak td either.  I don’t see a carve out at the goal line.  

[Buffalo_Stampede]

1 hour ago, Matt_In_NH said:

Watching the chiefs game.  I really think the eagles are successful because all guys on offense are working together to push Hurts into the endZone while the defense has a bunch of individuals trying to make a play.   It seems like the defense should match power with power and defenders should push the DTs. No idea if it would work but why not try something different since literally nothing works to defend it.  

I haven’t really studied how teams defend the brotherly shove but the biggest issue is the Eagles can easily fake it or run other plays with the personnel they have on the field. They keep AJ Brown and Smith on the field. So the Eagles aren’t subbing in big people. If the defense subs in big people now you’re at a disadvantage.

[WideNine]

It does pay homage to football's rugby roots.

 

Looked to me like KC still had safeties and light-weight defenders backing their bigger DL players when they probably needed to have those guys backed up by a few other big bodies from the DL or from the OL to give them an equal push.

 

Of course you don't want to see players hurt, and there are some dangers to that play if a player gets caught the middle the wrong way, but it would be interesting to see how that counter strategy would pan out.

 

 

 

 

Edited November 21, 2023 by WideNine

[Buffalo_Stampede]

Just now, WideNine said:

It does pay homage to football's rugby roots.

 

Looked to me like KC still had safeties and light-weight defenders backing their bigger DL players when they probably needed to have those guys backed up by a few other big bodies from the DL or from the OL to give them an equal push.

 

Of course you don't want to see players hurt, but it would be different and entertaining to see how that counter strategy would pan out.

 

 

 

 

You can’t sub more bigger players because the Eagles keep their normal WRs out there.

[WideNine]

5 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

You can’t sub more bigger players because the Eagles keep their normal WRs out there.

 

Have to play man on the receivers. You are subbing LBs and/or S's who are just ramming into the pile from behind any ways.

 

The Eagles are bringing in two extra OL players, you are just matching.

 

Edited November 21, 2023 by WideNine

[Buffalo_Stampede]

2 minutes ago, WideNine said:

 

Have to play man on the receivers. You are subbing LBs and/or S's who are just ramming into the pile from behind any ways.

 

The Eagles are bringing in two extra OL players, you are just matching.

 

You can’t. 

[BarleyNY]

I don’t see it going away nor do I think it should. It’s not a dangerous play relative to other football plays. Philly runs it with ease in part because they have an excellent OL and in part because their QB squats 600 pounds. 

[peterpan]

Honestly I don’t see a safety concern.  It’s probably one of the safest plays in football.  There’s no momentum.  You aren’t going to push on someone’s leg hard enough to break it.   That force requires a lot of speed.

 

that’s why injuries are way up in the NFl.  Everyone went to these spread offenses, the nfl pushed it thinking it would be safer than “3 yards and a cloud of dust”.  You used to have 300# guys standing still pushing each other, and now you have 225# guys running 25mph getting smacked by other 225# guys going 25 mph in the other direction. 

[WideNine]

15 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

You can’t. 

 

Show me where.

 

https://operations.nfl.com/the-rules/nfl-ruleb

 

 

[Beast]

Linvall Joseph will stop it.

[Matt_In_NH]

3 minutes ago, Beast said:

Linvall Joseph will stop it.

prepare to eat these words

[Bray Wyatt]

2 hours ago, Matt_In_NH said:

Watching the chiefs game.  I really think the eagles are successful because all guys on offense are working together to push Hurts into the endZone while the defense has a bunch of individuals trying to make a play.   It seems like the defense should match power with power and defenders should push the DTs. No idea if it would work but why not try something different since literally nothing works to defend it.  

 

I said the same thing to my buddies in a group text. The chiefs DL seemed to get the stop initially (or at least it looked more like a normal sneak), then that extra wave is just too much for them to stop on their own. I figured the only way to fight that push is to have a push of your own. Those linebackers that dive over the pile take away from that.

[4BillsintheBurgh]

The only way you stop it is to get a hit on Hurts. With folks pushing him from behind and slamming him from the front somethings going to give. Easier said than done.

 

Their LG is awfully quick off the ball too.

[Bob Jones]

This pushing/pulling by teammates on a guy with the ball needs to be banned ASAP. And it happens all over the field too, not just at the goal line or on short yardage situations.

 

My guess is that it wont be though, unless someone get seriously hurt in one of these instances.

[Buffalo_Stampede]

29 minutes ago, WideNine said:

 

Show me where.

 

https://operations.nfl.com/the-rules/nfl-ruleb

 

 

It’s not rule thing it’s a talent thing. I don’t understand why this is such a topic of discussion. What the Eagles do is great because of who’s running it. It’s the same as Tom Brady sneak. Brady is probably the only QB in history that runs that quick sneak and it works 99% of the time. No one else even tries it.

[stlbills13]

I don't have a problem with the play concept. I do think the Eagles line up illegally and/or move early at times. But that could be said a lot in a typical game. 

 

If you really want to stop it you have to sell out and put 11 big guys out there. Who cares if hurts pulls it out and throws and easy td to a wr. Same result as them just sneaking it in and maybe you get lucky on an easy drop

 

Another way to stop it is probably to play dirty. Even if hurts scores, a late hard hit makes you think to do it again later 

 

[Buffalo_Stampede]

1 minute ago, Bob Jones said:

This pushing/pulling by teammates on a guy with the ball needs to be banned ASAP. And it happens all over the field too, not just at the goal line or on short yardage situations.

 

My guess is that it wont be though, unless someone get seriously hurt in one of these instances.

They definitely have to start throwing flags if a player starts pulling Hurts in though. I’ve seen it a few times and no call. It’s literally illegal.

[Bob Jones]

Just now, stlbills13 said:

Another way to stop it is probably to play dirty. Even if hurts scores, a late hard hit makes you think to do it again later 

Agreed. No one knows what happens deep down in the middle of that scrum. 😉

[Matt_In_NH]

17 minutes ago, Bray Wyatt said:

 

I said the same thing to my buddies in a group text. The chiefs DL seemed to get the stop initially (or at least it looked more like a normal sneak), then that extra wave is just too much for them to stop on their own. I figured the only way to fight that push is to have a push of your own. Those linebackers that dive over the pile take away from that.

Exaxtly!   I would like to see someone attack it differently.  

[Buffalo_Stampede]

1 minute ago, Bob Jones said:

Agreed. No one knows what happens deep down in the middle of that scrum. 😉

Oil check.

[DisplacedBillsFan]

I’d love to know who actually started this play. Do the Eagles get credit just because they do it the best? I’ve seen several mentions of them inventing it last year, but I specifically remember Daboll calling this play and it was Knox pushing Allen. That would have to have been the 2021 season at the latest.

[WideNine]

38 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

It’s not rule thing it’s a talent thing. I don’t understand why this is such a topic of discussion. What the Eagles do is great because of who’s running it. It’s the same as Tom Brady sneak. Brady is probably the only QB in history that runs that quick sneak and it works 99% of the time. No one else even tries it.

 

I disagree.

 

I don't think it is rocket science and it is less a talent thing and more physics.

 

They have 2 300+ lb O-Linemen pushing Hurts and defenses are using 190-200 lbs LBs and Safeties to fill and get push on their DL.

 

The DL will be at a disadvantage every time.

 

It will work till they change the rules, or teams find the right counter punch to nullify the gimmick.

 

The NFL has always been this way aka "sugar huddles" and "wildcats".

 

 

 

 

Edited November 21, 2023 by WideNine

[D. L. Hot-Flamethrower]

Am I the only person who's noticed that many times Hurts is on top of pile and getting pushed across?

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

35 minutes ago, stlbills13 said:

I don't have a problem with the play concept. I do think the Eagles line up illegally and/or move early at times. But that could be said a lot in a typical game. 

 

If you really want to stop it you have to sell out and put 11 big guys out there. Who cares if hurts pulls it out and throws and easy td to a wr. Same result as them just sneaking it in and maybe you get lucky on an easy drop

 

Another way to stop it is probably to play dirty. Even if hurts scores, a late hard hit makes you think to do it again later 

 

People would care when it’s anywhere on the field but the goal line lol they run that play all over the field 

Edited November 21, 2023 by Generic_Bills_Fan

[LarryMadman]

Not a fan, if I wanted to watch rugby scrums I would watch rugby. Run a damn football play not that crap, I guess thats ok occassionally but not every 3rd or 4th and short, c'mon!

[dpberr]

I'd expect there will be a rule that says you can't fake it once the offense has established its position or a limited number of times you can use it in a game, like timeouts. The defense should have the opportunity to leverage without having to simultaneously be prepared for a fake.

 

Everytime Philly runs that play, Jason Kelce has the offensive and defensive lines resting on top of his body. That adds up. 

[C.Biscuit97]

It’s just funny that only one team can do it without getting hurt. So why should the eagles get penalized for it? Should we ban passing because the Jets suck at it?

 

and you have your DTs get super lover and have LBs leap. 

[Gary Marangi]

Here's what you do. One of the Bills jumps over grabs Hurts and sunset flips him

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 21, 2023 by Gary Marangi