Moving Forward...

[Santana]

Good morning! Love what I saw from the Bills yesterday, especially in the first half. A few takeaways for me personally.

 

1) Bring back 11 personnel as their regular base formation on offense

2) Keep using 5 wide

3) The offense looks really good playing up tempo/no huddle

4) More Khalil Shakir, more James Cook and more Dalton Kincaid

5) Please stop giving Latavius Murray runs at the goal line. Cook has earned the right to be the feature back. Murray is fine for pass blocking situations.

6) McDermott needs to be aggressive late in the game (I know punting on 4th and 1 in the 4th quarter was probably the right call but he needs to play to win)

Edited October 27, 2023 by Santana

[Mr. WEO]

I feel like this is the cliff notes of every thread since the game ended..

[SoCal Deek]

I have no problem with Murray at the goal line but they need to teach him technique. He’s tall for a RB. He either needs to go over the pile, or learn to get lower. He does neither. 

[zow2]

2 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

I have no problem with Murray at the goal line but they need to teach him technique. He’s tall for a RB. He either needs to go over the pile, or learn to get lower. He does neither. 

 

Isn't Murray like 75 years old?, i don't think he's learning anything at this point in his career,  he is what he is.  Just protect Allen on the blitz, run north/south, get a couple yards when needed and DON'T fumble.  

[Big Turk]

1 hour ago, Santana said:

Good morning! Love what I saw from the Bills yesterday, especially in the first half. A few takeaways for me personally.

 

1) Bring back 11 personnel as their regular base formation on offense

2) Keep using 5 wide

3) The offense looks really good playing up tempo/no huddle

4) More Khalil Shakir, more James Cook and more Dalton Kincaid

5) Please stop giving Latavius Murray runs at the goal line. Cook has earned the right to be the feature back. Murray is fine for pass blocking situations.

6) McDermott needs to be aggressive late in the game (I know punting on 4th and 1 in the 4th quarter was probably the right call but he needs to play to win)

 

I don't mind Murray runs at the goalline.  I mind Murray runs at the goalline out of the shotgun.  We have tried this 3 times in recent weeks and it was worked exactly 0 times. IMO, if Allen kept that he walks into the endzone....last player on that side with contain was a DE and there was no DB outside of him. No way the DE is going to run with Allen side to side and keep him out of the endzone.

 

Love Shakir and the shifty element he brings to the pass game once he gets the ball in his hands. Dude has moves like an RB.  He is also open A LOT and is great versus man coverage.  Get him involved more.

Edited October 27, 2023 by Big Turk

[SoCal Deek]

Lost in all of this is how did Spencer Brown hold up in 11 personnel…which we were told wouldn’t work because he needs too much help. 

[BIGFOOTspaceman]

Just now, SoCal Deek said:

Lost in all of this is how did Spencer Brown hold up in 11 personnel…which we were told wouldn’t work because he needs too much help. 

Thought he played really well...overall, the entire O-line played well for the most part.

[zow2]

1 minute ago, Big Turk said:

 

I don't mind Murray runs at the goalline.  I mind Murray runs at the goalline out of the shotgun.  We have tried this 3 times in recent weeks and it was worked exactly 0 times.

 

Yeah, handing it to Murray out of the gun, if comparing him to a motor vehicle, he has the explosiveness of a mail truck in your neighborhood.

[dorquemada]

1 minute ago, SoCal Deek said:

Lost in all of this is how did Spencer Brown hold up in 11 personnel…which we were told wouldn’t work because he needs too much help. 

 

overall OL played a good game, JA getting the ball out quick  from mostly clean pocket.  Bucs were definitely ready for the rollouts though

[BCAS Baritone]

7 minutes ago, Big Turk said:

 

I don't mind Murray runs at the goalline.  I mind Murray runs at the goalline out of the shotgun.  We have tried this 3 times in recent weeks and it was worked exactly 0 times.

 

It's not just that they don't score.  They almost always lose yardage, no matter the down and distance and where they are on the field.  They stink at it.  STOP CALLING IT.

[davefan66]

29 minutes ago, Santana said:

Good morning! Love what I saw from the Bills yesterday, especially in the first half. A few takeaways for me personally.

 

1) Bring back 11 personnel as their regular base formation on offense

2) Keep using 5 wide

3) The offense looks really good playing up tempo/no huddle

4) More Khalil Shakir, more James Cook and more Dalton Kincaid

5) Please stop giving Latavius Murray runs at the goal line. Cook has earned the right to be the feature back. Murray is fine for pass blocking situations.

6) McDermott needs to be aggressive late in the game (I know punting on 4th and 1 in the 4th quarter was probably the right call but he needs to play to win)

Love Murray.  Why was he the guy late in the game?  Cook has been great. Dude is full speed hen he gets the ball and just keeps moving forward.

 

Involve Kincaid and Shakir. That will open Stef to be Stef.

 

As soon as they stopped the hurry up, offense didn’t do anything.  Gotta keep that up.

 

 

[Matt_In_NH]

My opinion.....constant talk of 12 personnel....when they have Kincaid out there split out with Knox in on the line I understand that is what we call 12 personnel  but is it?  Replace Kincaid with Shankir who does the exact same thing, runs routes in the passing game and we now call it 11.  My point is 11 and 12 are personnel groups defined by the positions assigned to the players.  Formations are something else and I am not sure how much that changed last night.  What did change is target share for the other guys on the field not named Diggs.   There were a lot more first reads that were NOT Diggs last night which makes the defense not be able to key on one guy and likely was not what the Bucs were expecting.

 

my 2 pennies....

[ngbills]

The OL has easier job when they spread the field. Teams are forced to have less guys near the line and Allen can see it much quicker if they send a blitzer. 

2 minutes ago, Matt_In_NH said:

My opinion.....constant talk of 12 personnel....when they have Kincaid out there split out with Knox in on the line I understand that is what we call 12 personnel  but is it?  Replace Kincaid with Shankir who does the exact same thing, runs routes in the passing game and we now call it 11.  My point is 11 and 12 are personnel groups defined by the positions assigned to the players.  Formations are something else and I am not sure how much that changed last night.  What did change is target share for the other guys on the field not named Diggs.   There were a lot more first reads that were NOT Diggs last night which makes the defense not be able to key on one guy and likely was not what the Bucs were expecting.

 

my 2 pennies....

They had plays 4 and even 5 guys wide. Most other games it was a lot of 2 tight or other variations but much more condensed formations. Yesterday they spread it out. 

[SectionC3]

29 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

I have no problem with Murray at the goal line but they need to teach him technique. He’s tall for a RB. He either needs to go over the pile, or learn to get lower. He does neither. 

How about running from under center so the very large and powerful man carrying the ball goes forward and has a head start?   I cannot conceive why that guy is running out of shotgun on third and goal from the half yard line.  

[BBFL]

5 minutes ago, ngbills said:

The OL has easier job when they spread the field. Teams are forced to have less guys near the line and Allen can see it much quicker if they send a blitzer. 

They had plays 4 and even 5 guys wide. Most other games it was a lot of 2 tight or other variations but much more condensed formations. Yesterday they spread it out. 

 

Had no option. Their hand was forced with Kincaid being the only TE dressed for the game. Hopefully that negative can turn into a positive in terms of personnel grouping for the remainder of the year. 

[Hotdog water]

43 minutes ago, SectionC3 said:

How about running from under center so the very large and powerful man carrying the ball goes forward and has a head start?   I cannot conceive why that guy is running out of shotgun on third and goal from the half yard line.  

For this reason alone, Dorsey needs to go! It’s pure incompetence and negligence. In addition, McDermott not pushing him to remove this nonsensical play in these scenarios is equally disturbing from a leadership perspective. 

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

1 hour ago, Big Turk said:

 

I don't mind Murray runs at the goalline.  I mind Murray runs at the goalline out of the shotgun.  We have tried this 3 times in recent weeks and it was worked exactly 0 times.

 

Love Shakir and the shifty element he brings to the pass game once he gets the ball in his hands. Dude has moves like an RB.  He is also open A LOT and is great versus man coverage.  Get him involved more.

 

The handoff takes too much time.  It just doesn't work there, reading a linebacker or not thats gonna be clogged. 

2 minutes ago, Hotdog water said:

For this reason alone, Dorsey needs to go! It’s pure incompetence and negligence. In addition, McDermott not pushing him to remove this nonsensical play in these scenarios is equally disturbing from a leadership perspective. 

 

It's likely an RPO or read-option look out of shotgun - just need to spread the opponent out a bit more for you to be able to execute.  

[Mr. WEO]

1 hour ago, SoCal Deek said:

I have no problem with Murray at the goal line but they need to teach him technique. He’s tall for a RB. He either needs to go over the pile, or learn to get lower. He does neither. 

 

He's 33........

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

55 minutes ago, ngbills said:

The OL has easier job when they spread the field. Teams are forced to have less guys near the line and Allen can see it much quicker if they send a blitzer. 

They had plays 4 and even 5 guys wide. Most other games it was a lot of 2 tight or other variations but much more condensed formations. Yesterday they spread it out. 

 

I like spreading it out against the blitz.  

[Big Turk]

3 minutes ago, Bleeding Bills Blue said:

 

The handoff takes too much time.  It just doesn't work there, reading a linebacker or not thats gonna be clogged. 

 

It's likely an RPO or read-option look out of shotgun - just need to spread the opponent out a bit more for you to be able to execute.  

 

I kinda feel like if Allen pulled that ball and kept it, he had a free walk to the endzone as the last player on the line was a DE and there is no way he would be able to outrun Allen to the endzone from there. No DB's were outside of him on the play.

Edited October 27, 2023 by Big Turk

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

4 minutes ago, Hotdog water said:

For this reason alone, Dorsey needs to go! It’s pure incompetence and negligence. In addition, McDermott not pushing him to remove this nonsensical play in these scenarios is equally disturbing from a leadership perspective. 

 

I don't know why we don't just go tackle eligible, throw a fullback out there and just hammer it home.  It was less than a yard, you could sneak if you wanted but even if you don't want allen in there you have murray and you need a crease about as wide as my finger for him to get the needed foot and a half.  

Just now, Big Turk said:

 

I kinda feel like if Allen pulled that ball and kept it, he had a free walk to the endzone as the last player on the line was a DE and there is no way he would be able to outrun Allen to the endzone from there. No DB's were outside of him on the play.

 

Right - it beats the old allen who would never hand off on a read option?  But sometimes you read it wrong. 

[Bob Jones]

13 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

He's 33........

What are you saying!? I’m 63 and I’m still learning new things! 🤪😂

[Cray51]

1 hour ago, SectionC3 said:

How about running from under center so the very large and powerful man carrying the ball goes forward and has a head start?   I cannot conceive why that guy is running out of shotgun on third and goal from the half yard line.  

That was a design RPO, and if you watch the play, Allen had one on one with a corner at the edge if he took it himself.  Instead he gave to Murray, who was stuffed.

 

I dont hate the design, I hate the execution.

 

And to add, Harris gets that carry if he isn't hurt.  Murray was the 3rd down and pass pro option.  Harris was always the short yardage guy

[Royale with Cheese]

1 hour ago, Big Turk said:

 

I don't mind Murray runs at the goalline.  I mind Murray runs at the goalline out of the shotgun.  We have tried this 3 times in recent weeks and it was worked exactly 0 times. IMO, if Allen kept that he walks into the endzone....last player on that side with contain was a DE and there was no DB outside of him. No way the DE is going to run with Allen side to side and keep him out of the endzone.

 

Love Shakir and the shifty element he brings to the pass game once he gets the ball in his hands. Dude has moves like an RB.  He is also open A LOT and is great versus man coverage.  Get him involved more.

 

I just don't understand it.  Dorsey was asked last week and his responded that it's been successful for us.

Yes, with Cook anywhere outside the goal line it works.  Murray at the goaline, it never works.  The defense is much more tighter.

Just give it to Allen.  You are like 98% successful with Allen and sneaks.  Okay, they might stop it once but they're aren't stopping Allen multiple times on a sneak.

[Big Turk]

1 minute ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

I just don't understand it.  Dorsey was asked last week and his responded that it's been successful for us.

Yes, with Cook anywhere outside the goal line it works.  Murray at the goaline, it never works.  The defense is much more tighter.

Just give it to Allen.  You are like 98% successful with Allen and sneaks.  Okay, they might stop it once but they're aren't stopping Allen multiple times on a sneak.

 

Wondering if that would have been the call if Allen wasn't dealing with a shoulder issue?  Might not have wanted to put any potential strain on it unless absolutely necessary and they needed to late in the game, or it was a "had to have it" type situation.

Edited October 27, 2023 by Big Turk

[SectionC3]

10 minutes ago, Cray51 said:

That was a design RPO, and if you watch the play, Allen had one on one with a corner at the edge if he took it himself.  Instead he gave to Murray, who was stuffed.

 

I dont hate the design, I hate the execution.

 

And to add, Harris gets that carry if he isn't hurt.  Murray was the 3rd down and pass pro option.  Harris was always the short yardage guy

Then run it with Cook.  I like Murray—a lot—but he has the acceleration of a golf cart.  Or don’t run it at all from that location on the field.  

[Royale with Cheese]

6 minutes ago, Big Turk said:

 

Wondering if that would have been the call if Allen wasn't dealing with a shoulder issue?  Might not have wanted to put any potential strain on it unless absolutely necessary and they needed to late in the game, or it was a "had to have it" type situation.

 

I think Dorsey is just overcomplicating things.

[BearNorth]

Five wide means fewer people in the box, and opens up Josh's running ability.

[Big Turk]

15 minutes ago, BearNorth said:

Five wide means fewer people in the box, and opens up Josh's running ability.

 

Brady used to carve teams up out of that formation...usually was almost never even touched in games because he would get the ball out so quick

[Cray51]

22 minutes ago, SectionC3 said:

Then run it with Cook.  I like Murray—a lot—but he has the acceleration of a golf cart.  Or don’t run it at all from that location on the field.  

I don't disagree with preferring Cook.  Just acknowledging some of the components that led to the result.

[Matt_In_NH]

2 hours ago, ngbills said:

The OL has easier job when they spread the field. Teams are forced to have less guys near the line and Allen can see it much quicker if they send a blitzer. 

They had plays 4 and even 5 guys wide. Most other games it was a lot of 2 tight or other variations but much more condensed formations. Yesterday they spread it out. 

Are there numbers somewhere with formations vs personnel groups?

[billsfan_34]

5 hours ago, SectionC3 said:

How about running from under center so the very large and powerful man carrying the ball goes forward and has a head start?   I cannot conceive why that guy is running out of shotgun on third and goal from the half yard line.  

I used to sit in C3 and C2