Shakir needs to be given some of Gabe’s snaps…prove me wrong

[LeGOATski]

12 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

He has no dropped passes this year while Knox and Davis are out there killing drives with drops

Maybe he does, but he's had very limited opportunities this year. In the past he has dropped plenty.

[JakeFrommStateFarm]

1 hour ago, Virgil said:

 

Please don't make me look it up.  He def had a drop this season and got called out for it here.  Granted, Davis also has drops, so neither are perfect.  

 

Honestly, I want to see Sherfield on the outside and let Davis/Shakir, and Harty fight it out in the slot

This sounds right.  Shakir is a slot receiver and wouldn't do well on the outside because of his size and leaping ability.

 

So give Sherfield a shot or even Shorter and see what it looks like.  Shorter at 6'4 and 220 running a 4.5 might be exciting to see at the Z.  He could be a hungry rookie.

 

Let Shakir, Harty and Kincaid fight it out in the slot

Edited October 23, 2023 by JakeFrommStateFarm

[bouds]

54 minutes ago, BillsShredder83 said:

I know it looks like he's jogging but any chance he's keeping that safety lower just by being there? If he's in a dead sprint that safety Is closer up on Diggs?

 

Even if that's the case poor route designs. He shouldn't be on a streak, would be more effective to run a comeback or something shorter

No you're absolutely right that he can't just go full speed, because they need good route distribution, but he also knows he's not an option on that play.  Like you'd think he would curl up near the sticks as a quick outlet pass, which would keep the safeties eyes even more.  Whatever, I just wish he got more action, I think he can be tool in the slot.

[Utah John]

The one aspect where Davis has the edge is in size -- also strength.  Davis is a good blocker for the run and downfield as well.

[Mr. WEO]

18 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

He has 8 catches on 9 targets and I don't see him credited with a drop.  

 

Davis dropped 2 3rd down conversions in the same game this year.  

 

So I don't see how Shakir can be labeled someone who drops passes when he has had so little opportunity to show one way or the other.  People made a big deal about a very difficult catch he dropped in the playoff game, but he didn't even drop it, he just wasn't able to keep it from moving when he laid out for it and hit the ground.  Diggs drop on the 2nd to last play for example against NE was way worse.  

 

You'e awesome Virgil, and no offense, but this notion that Shakir has bad hands or drops passes is just not fair to him.  He had 2 drops last year, one of which was a very difficult catch that guys like Diggs drop too.  Davis is a proven drop machine and Knox goes through phases where he can make some crazy difficult catches then drop important less difficult ones.

 

Its time to let other guys see if they can improve this offense because Davis getting 96% of the snaps and putting up 1 catch all the time is not getting it done.

  He also had 2 TD passes in a row--you counting that extra one on a (Diggs) penalty to go along with the drop that didn't count?

 

Davis has 2 credited drops this year.

 

 

"all the time"?  In the previous 3 games he caught 12 passes on 15 targets.

 

[Alphadawg7]

24 minutes ago, LeGOATski said:

Maybe he does, but he's had very limited opportunities this year. In the past he has dropped plenty.

Plenty?  You mean 2?  One of which was a very difficult catch that was harder than the one Diggs dropped on 2nd to last play yesterday?  
 

This narrative on him just makes no sense

10 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

  He also had 2 TD passes in a row--you counting that extra one on a (Diggs) penalty to go along with the drop that didn't count?

 

Davis has 2 credited drops this year.

 

 

"all the time"?  In the previous 3 games he caught 12 passes on 15 targets.

 

Are you going to give Davis a pass for dropping another 3rd down conversion because an unrelated flag kept it off his stat sheet?  Does that unrelated flag change the fact he dropped the ball again?

[Mr. WEO]

27 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

Plenty?  You mean 2?  One of which was a very difficult catch that was harder than the one Diggs dropped on 2nd to last play yesterday?  
 

This narrative on him just makes no sense

Are you going to give Davis a pass for dropping another 3rd down conversion because an unrelated flag kept it off his stat sheet?  Does that unrelated flag change the fact he dropped the ball again?

 

Are you going to give him credit for the other TD?  He did catch it...

[BananaB]

What do you mean? This time last year Gabe had 6 games where he had 3 catches or less, this year it’s only 5. 😂 

 

Bills need changes so it can’t hurt to try at this point. ***** been going on since last year, someone besides him gotta be giving an opportunity in that roll. 

[JackKemp]

14 hours ago, Dablitzkrieg said:

I think the issue is run blocking.  This staff is in love with Gabe.  Not sure how effective Shakir is at run blocking 

Shakir is often on the field for running plays and seems to block well. Gabe is a monster with blocking. He is practically a TE.

[Alphadawg7]

1 hour ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

Are you going to give him credit for the other TD?  He did catch it...

 

Catching TD's is not a "concern" that is him doing his job - dropping passes and taking the offense off the field because he can't get open, drops a pass, or doesn't get his feet down in bounds is a concern.  

[LeGOATski]

6 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

Plenty?  You mean 2?  One of which was a very difficult catch that was harder than the one Diggs dropped on 2nd to last play yesterday?  
 

This narrative on him just makes no sense

Are you counting all of last year? There's a reason he has struggled to see the field and it's not his route running or blocking.

[Alphadawg7]

2 hours ago, LeGOATski said:

Are you counting all of last year? There's a reason he has struggled to see the field and it's not his route running or blocking.

 

He has 2 career drops.  James Cook fumbled his first game, doesn't make him a career fumbler.  This false narrative about Shakir is crazy to me, literally everyone who says he drops passes doesn't even know that he really hasn't dropped many passes.  It's one of the weirdest TSW myths

Edited October 24, 2023 by Alphadawg7

[BADOLBILZ]

9 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

Plenty?  You mean 2?  One of which was a very difficult catch that was harder than the one Diggs dropped on 2nd to last play yesterday?  
 

This narrative on him just makes no sense

Are you going to give Davis a pass for dropping another 3rd down conversion because an unrelated flag kept it off his stat sheet?  Does that unrelated flag change the fact he dropped the ball again?

 

 

3 drops last season, actually.   The horrible drop on that wide open bomb in the WC game versus Miami was a very big negative momentum swing for the Bills.   And his hands sucked this preseason too, which I think you want to dismiss but Davis dropped a couple in preseason too.    Drops in preseason are probably a good predictor of drops going forward,  just saying.

 

Also the 1 target that went incomplete to Shakir this season was probably Josh Allen's best throw of the season on that go route versus the Raiders..........put it right on him but he flailed at it and it fell to the turf........not scored a drop but it was very catchable.

 

But in general Shakir seems to have soft enough hands(unlike Gabe and Knox who struggle with hand placement and technique) but Shakir hasn't impressed as a route runner and he seems to not be able to track the ball well on longer throws.    

 

  

[BADOLBILZ]

29 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

He has 2 career drops.  James Cook fumbled his first game, doesn't make him a career fumbler.  This false narrative about Shakir is crazy to me, literally everyone who says he drops passes doesn't even know that he really hasn't dropped many passes.  It's one of the weirdest TSW myths

 

 

He had 3 drops on 27 targets last season..........which is 11% drop rate which was statistically worse than Gabe Davis even(and he was terrible).

 

Shakir has been used on shorter throws this season than last.    He's 8 of 9 targets but it's been very short throws only aside from the one that he dropped but wasn't scored as a drop.

[Alphadawg7]

45 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

3 drops last season, actually.   The horrible drop on that wide open bomb in the WC game versus Miami was a very big negative momentum swing for the Bills.   And his hands sucked this preseason too, which I think you want to dismiss but Davis dropped a couple in preseason too.    Drops in preseason are probably a good predictor of drops going forward,  just saying.

 

Also the 1 target that went incomplete to Shakir this season was probably Josh Allen's best throw of the season on that go route versus the Raiders..........put it right on him but he flailed at it and it fell to the turf........not scored a drop but it was very catchable.

 

But in general Shakir seems to have soft enough hands(unlike Gabe and Knox who struggle with hand placement and technique) but Shakir hasn't impressed as a route runner and he seems to not be able to track the ball well on longer throws.    

 

  

 

The site I checked showed 2, but doesn't mean that site is correct as I have found some sites differ on some of the stats tracked. That playoff drop is too harshly criticized IMHO.  Diggs just dropped an easier catch to end the game Sunday than the one Shakir didn't make in the playoffs, in fact Diggs has multiple drops this year that were easier catches than the one Shakir didn't complete in the playoffs.  And it wasn't even a full drop, the tip of the ball hit the ground on the way down and it had to be overturned on relay.  Davis drops easy throws right in his hands.  

 

Camp is camp, I don't really care what happened or didn't happen in camp.  I mean the camp where Mahomes became the starter, he was throwing INT's all through camp yet he went on to have the best first season of a QB ever.  Just like we have guys every year who have big camps that go on to do nothing and don't even make the roster.  For me, all that matters is what is he doing in the real games, and so far he is delivering when called upon while Davis musters 1 catch on a 96% snap account.

 

He doesn't have to be the next Beasley, but I am willing to bet if he played 96% of the snaps he would get more than 1 catch.  I am not clear why you think he can't track deep ball, its actually something he did very well in college and he hasn't gotten enough reps in the NFL to indicate if he can or can't.  But then again, I am not saying he needs to be a deep ball guy, Davis can still fill that role as its about the only route he can run with any success.  

 

Allen just needs more help to move the chains so it can open up the downfield attack more.  Right now defenses are just taking that away too easily and Dorsey has no answers for it.  And Davis just isn't the guy to help Allen do that, but I personally think Shakir can be of more value in that regard than Davis.  

 

And look, I am not saying that Shakir will never drop another pass, I am just saying I feel like he is being a bit unfairly labeled as not having good hands based on a rookie year where the sample size was small and he was not used consistently or given a lot of time to develop.  

 

NOTE:  One thing no one takes into consideration about last year is that Allen throws harder than any QB any of these guys have ever caught passes from, and that is especially true in live games where Allen is firing balls in the heat of the game.  Receivers talked all the time about guys like Elway and Marino where it was just harder to catch their passes until you got used to the velocity.  Then you add in Shakir was a reserve running with the backups rather than the 1's during practice throughout the season and also not getting many snaps either, its not a surprise he might drop a ball or two as a rookie.  But this year, his hands look good and he is delivering so far on the opportunities given to him.  

Edited October 24, 2023 by Alphadawg7

[BillsFanForever19]

It's funny how things change around here in a couple months. On cut down day there were more people on here than not that were saying Shakir has done nothing to warrant a roster spot and should have been released. 

[Mr. WEO]

15 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Catching TD's is not a "concern" that is him doing his job - dropping passes and taking the offense off the field because he can't get open, drops a pass, or doesn't get his feet down in bounds is a concern.  

 

In the past two seasons, he's doing that job better than any other receiver on the roster other than Diggs. 

 

 "taking the Offense off the field"?  In the past 2 seasons, he has caught more passes for 1st downs than any receiver other than Diggs.

[Donuts and Doritos]

Put Shakir outside, back him up w/ Sherfield. Harry in the slot. Decrease Gabe's snaps. Up Kincaid's targets. See what these guys can do & if it makes a difference ahead of the trade deadline.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

Oh yea this makes perfect sense …. WR2 isn’t good enough so replace him with the next guy who can’t even beat him on the depth chart in practice. 
 

flawless logic 🙄 

[Alphadawg7]

5 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

In the past two seasons, he's doing that job better than any other receiver on the roster other than Diggs. 

 

 "taking the Offense off the field"?  In the past 2 seasons, he has caught more passes for 1st downs than any receiver other than Diggs.

 

He is the #2 WR...on most teams that is going to be true.

Saying he caught more than McKenzie, Football Jesus, a rookie WR they didn't use, etc doesn't mean a whole lot.  

[Alphadawg7]

2 hours ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

Oh yea this makes perfect sense …. WR2 isn’t good enough so replace him with the next guy who can’t even beat him on the depth chart in practice. 
 

flawless logic 🙄 

 

 

Flawless logic lol...like responding to a headline and not understanding the premise of the post and making up your own narrative instead?  Never at any point said to replace Davis with Shakir who is a slot WR.  

 

I said that Davis 96% snap share dominance, which has been consistent all year, even more than Diggs, should go down to get other guys more opportunities to get on the field like Shakir who have been making plays when called upon.

 

And the coaches seem to agree since Shakirs snap count has increased every week since week 1.  

 

[FireChans]

Just now, Alphadawg7 said:

 

 

Flawless logic lol...like responding to a headline and not understanding the premise of the post and making up your own narrative instead?  Never at any point said to replace Davis with Shakir who is a slot WR.  

 

I said that Davis 96% snap share dominance, which has been consistent all year, even more than Diggs, should go down to get other guys more opportunities to get on the field like Shakir who have been making plays when called upon.

 

And the coaches seem to agree since Shakirs snap count has increased every week since week 1.  

 

Who do you play on the boundary if Davis is on the bench?

[Alphadawg7]

Just now, FireChans said:

Who do you play on the boundary if Davis is on the bench?

 

You don't have to have two traditional boundary WR's on every play.  Like I said, its not about replacing Davis, he would still be the primary boundary WR opposite Diggs.  But the offense needs guys who can get open in other areas of the field where Davis struggles, and getting some of the other guys more snaps who can help in those areas like Kincaid and Shakir is something I think would help Josh and this offense.  

 

Davis has 3 catches or less in 5 of our 7 games despite having the highest % of snaps on the entire Team and Diggs facing frequent double teams.  He literally averages 3.1 catches per game on the season.  Getting over 90% of the offensive snaps on a pass happy team with Josh Allen should result in better than 3 catches per game (two of which he has just 1).  

 

Our rookie TE Kincaid gets over 30% less snaps per game than Davis, and has played one less game and yet still has 3 more catches than Davis who dominates the snap count.  The biggest issue with Kincaid is that his yards per catch is a putrid 7.7 ypc, but that is IMHO a Dorsey issue and how they have used Kincaid.  

[FireChans]

23 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

You don't have to have two traditional boundary WR's on every play.  Like I said, its not about replacing Davis, he would still be the primary boundary WR opposite Diggs.  But the offense needs guys who can get open in other areas of the field where Davis struggles, and getting some of the other guys more snaps who can help in those areas like Kincaid and Shakir is something I think would help Josh and this offense.  

 

Davis has 3 catches or less in 5 of our 7 games despite having the highest % of snaps on the entire Team and Diggs facing frequent double teams.  He literally averages 3.1 catches per game on the season.  Getting over 90% of the offensive snaps on a pass happy team with Josh Allen should result in better than 3 catches per game (two of which he has just 1).  

 

Our rookie TE Kincaid gets over 30% less snaps per game than Davis, and has played one less game and yet still has 3 more catches than Davis who dominates the snap count.  The biggest issue with Kincaid is that his yards per catch is a putrid 7.7 ypc, but that is IMHO a Dorsey issue and how they have used Kincaid.  

So what would your offensive formation look like? Diggs on the outside and then bunches?

[Alphadawg7]

13 minutes ago, FireChans said:

So what would your offensive formation look like? Diggs on the outside and then bunches?

 

I mean thats a good start.  But you are still focused on there being no boundary WR, which isn't what needs to happen.  Shakir and Sherfield can play the boundary on some snaps, it doesn't always have to be Davis.  Heck, even Harty can mix in there a few snaps to stretch the D.  

 

I just think they need more rotation with Davis because to lead the team in snaps well over 90% and avg just 3 catches a game isn't helping Josh often enough.  2 games with 1 catch while playing opposite a guy like Diggs who is consistently drawing extra attention is just not good enough.  We need more production from a guy on the field 95% of the plays or we need to reduce that percentage some to get other guys on the field who may contribute more in other areas of the field.  

Edited October 24, 2023 by Alphadawg7

[GunnerBill]

Shakir can only really play in the slot. If you are taking Davis off the field in my mind it is either because you are splitting a tight end wide (which with Knox down for a spell looks less likely) or Sherfield is coming in. 

 

And it isn't so much about where they line up in relation to the line of scrimmage. You can have Diggs one side wide and then  a bunch formation the other if you like but the widest of that bunch is going to face a boundary corner and if I am a boundary corner and I see Shakir widest of the receivers on one side I will just go press him at the line and ask old alligator arms to get off the press. He can do it a snap here and a snap there to add a wrinkle. But if you wanna take 20% of Davis's snaps away for example then I don't know how many of those you are giving to Khalil Shakir.

[Alphadawg7]

25 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

Shakir can only really play in the slot. If you are taking Davis off the field in my mind it is either because you are splitting a tight end wide (which with Knox down for a spell looks less likely) or Sherfield is coming in. 

 

And it isn't so much about where they line up in relation to the line of scrimmage. You can have Diggs one side wide and then  a bunch formation the other if you like but the widest of that bunch is going to face a boundary corner and if I am a boundary corner and I see Shakir widest of the receivers on one side I will just go press him at the line and ask old alligator arms to get off the press. He can do it a snap here and a snap there to add a wrinkle. But if you wanna take 20% of Davis's snaps away for example then I don't know how many of those you are giving to Khalil Shakir.

 

Fair points on Shakir, but the staff has felt Shakir warranted more snaps and has tripled his snap count since week 1 and Davis has not had less time on the field.  So that tracks with what you are saying here.  

 

But this offense needs more out of a guy on the field 95% of the snaps than 5 games of 1-3 catches and 3.1 rec per game avg.  I just think Davis has too many limitations to dominate the snap count that much, and I went to Shakir first because he has shown some nice blocking ability this year, which is one the things people defend Davis with which has been his ability to block.  

 

Whatever the answer is, I think Davis having his snap count drop from 95% to 75%-80% would benefit the offense if it means we are getting guys on the field who offer more diversity in the route tree and more consistency in other areas of the field.  

[GunnerBill]

1 minute ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Fair points on Shakir, but the staff has felt Shakir warranted more snaps and has tripled his snap count since week 1 and Davis has not had less time on the field.  So that tracks with what you are saying here.  

 

But this offense needs more out of a guy on the field 95% of the snaps than 5 games of 1-3 catches and 3.1 rec per game avg.  I just think Davis has too many limitations to dominate the snap count that much, and I went to Shakir first because he has shown some nice blocking ability this year, which is one the things people defend Davis with which has been his ability to block.  

 

Whatever the answer is, I think Davis having his snap count drop from 95% to 75%-80% would benefit the offense if it means we are getting guys on the field who offer more diversity in the route tree and more consistency in other areas of the field.  

 

The way to do it IMO is trade for a guy. If you can't get a top guy find a one trick pony true deep speed guy for a late mid round pick who can blow past cover 2 shell and just try throwing a few over their heads. See if it backs defenses off a bit. 

 

Then rotate that guy and Gabe if you need to. 

[Goin Breakdown]

Who do we want to see drop a pass?  It's a catch 22. Yep, that's a Pun. You're welcome. 

[balln]

23 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

The way to do it IMO is trade for a guy. If you can't get a top guy find a one trick pony true deep speed guy for a late mid round pick who can blow past cover 2 shell and just try throwing a few over their heads. See if it backs defenses off a bit. 

 

Then rotate that guy and Gabe if you need to. 

I thot harty was that 

[Alphadawg7]

21 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

The way to do it IMO is trade for a guy. If you can't get a top guy find a one trick pony true deep speed guy for a late mid round pick who can blow past cover 2 shell and just try throwing a few over their heads. See if it backs defenses off a bit. 

 

Then rotate that guy and Gabe if you need to. 

 

With that being said, do you have someone in mind that you think fits that description and would be a realistic trade target based on our potential interest (cap considerations included) and potential availability?  

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

2 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

 

Flawless logic lol...like responding to a headline and not understanding the premise of the post and making up your own narrative instead?  Never at any point said to replace Davis with Shakir who is a slot WR.  

 

I said that Davis 96% snap share dominance, which has been consistent all year, even more than Diggs, should go down to get other guys more opportunities to get on the field like Shakir who have been making plays when called upon.

 

And the coaches seem to agree since Shakirs snap count has increased every week since week 1.  

 

Oh I see, so… they should do this thing “prove me wrong” didn’t mean the thing it said, it meant some other thing that the coaches agree with because they are actually doing it even though they should all be fired because they are bad at their jobs. 
 

I’m shocked OBD hasn’t pulled you in for a consult. 😂 

[Alphadawg7]

11 minutes ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

Oh I see, so… they should do this thing “prove me wrong” didn’t mean the thing it said, it meant some other thing that the coaches agree with because they are actually doing it even though they should all be fired because they are bad at their jobs. 
 

I’m shocked OBD hasn’t pulled you in for a consult. 😂 

 

Literally once again not at all what was said or what the post was about.  Reading helps.

[GunnerBill]

43 minutes ago, balln said:

I thot harty was that 

 

Think Beane hoped he was. Hasn't shown it though.

[Royale with Cheese]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

The way to do it IMO is trade for a guy. If you can't get a top guy find a one trick pony true deep speed guy for a late mid round pick who can blow past cover 2 shell and just try throwing a few over their heads. See if it backs defenses off a bit. 

 

Then rotate that guy and Gabe if you need to. 

 

We need a 2019 Jon Brown.

[GunnerBill]

1 hour ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

With that being said, do you have someone in mind that you think fits that description and would be a realistic trade target based on our potential interest (cap considerations included) and potential availability?  

 

Not given it a lot of thought. A total shot im the dark name - KJ Hamler

 

[FireChans]

Just now, GunnerBill said:

 

Not given it a lot of thought. A total shot im the dark name - KJ Hamler

 

I loved Hamler coming out which is why I’m no scout.

[Mr. WEO]

6 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

He is the #2 WR...on most teams that is going to be true.

Saying he caught more than McKenzie, Football Jesus, a rookie WR they didn't use, etc doesn't mean a whole lot.  

 

it also disproved your post

6 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

 

Flawless logic lol...like responding to a headline and not understanding the premise of the post and making up your own narrative instead?  Never at any point said to replace Davis with Shakir who is a slot WR.  

 

I said that Davis 96% snap share dominance, which has been consistent all year, even more than Diggs, should go down to get other guys more opportunities to get on the field like Shakir who have been making plays when called upon.

 

And the coaches seem to agree since Shakirs snap count has increased every week since week 1.  

 

 

Yet not at the expense of Davis's snaps.

 

So the coaches seem not to agree with you....

[Alphadawg7]

18 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

it also disproved your post

 

Yet not at the expense of Davis's snaps.

 

So the coaches seem not to agree with you....

 

I didn't say they agree with me, I said they at least agree Shakir needs more snaps.  

[Mr. WEO]

11 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

I didn't say they agree with me, I said they at least agree Shakir needs more snaps.  

 

then change the title of this thread...

 

 

Maybe : "I'm glad to see the coaching staff is giving Shakir more snaps, because I agree with that"

Edited October 25, 2023 by Mr. WEO