Dorian and my pet peeve with the staff on rookies

[poblano]

7 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

they said he was drafted with the intent he could be a candidate to play at MLB.  

They never said any similar to that.  From the moment they drafted him immediately said that It was going to play OLB

[Augie]

3 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

 

The positives are in the profile as well.  As I said, I posted those from nfl.com, pff.com, and si.com.  

 

I only posted the negs because that's what you asked for, as you said and to not have any more info than what was germane.  

 

I personally like walterfootball because they do a lot of their own stuff, or have people that do, and don't always agree with the 90+% of draft profiles out there, and in the past they've matched some of mine on players that I have reviewed.  

 

 

My bad if I missed it. 

[PBF81]

7 minutes ago, Augie said:

My bad if I missed it. 

 

No worries.  

 

BTW, this place was flooded with posters claiming that Williams would play MLB.  For the life of me I have no idea why since shortly after they drafted him they said he'd backup Milano.  But again, that raises questions as to why they'd draft a backup at OLB before trying to grab a potential starter or at least someone to compete for a vacant position instead.  

 

 

[Alphadawg7]

1 hour ago, FireChans said:

I asked that lol. Fair enough. 

Ha for some reason I thought someone else originally asked me that lol.  But yeah, that’s what you asked and what I answered.  But like i said, if you rephrase the question to will these guys be starters in 3 years then yeah, the list does get shorter on who I think could still be starters 3 years from now.
 

 

[Ethan in Cleveland]

13 hours ago, poblano said:

They never said any similar to that.  From the moment they drafted him immediately said that It was going to play OLB

No they didn't. They said he could play both. And then a few days later it was he was only to backup Milano. Then a few days later they retracted that as well when the appropriate ridicule of using a 3rd round draft pick to back up a guy that never leaves the field started pouring in. Since then it has been he will start as an OLB. 

[GunnerBill]

2 minutes ago, Ethan in Cleveland said:

No they didn't. They said he could play both. And then a few days later it was he was only to backup Milano. Then a few days later they retracted that as well when the appropriate ridicule of using a 3rd round draft pick to back up a guy that never leaves the field started pouring in. Since then it has been he will start as an OLB. 

 

Nope it was the other way around. In the post pick presser Brandon Beane said - direct quote - "We'll start him outside" and when pushed "Year 1 we'll keep him outside." Then when he was asked in the end of draft wrap up presser he walked that back slightly and said - direct quote - "Dorian, we'll see. We're not ruling it out. We're still talking about maybe we'll look at him as a guy to get in there and compete at Mike." Which is such a heavily caveated phrase it sounds like he never meant it. They then did play him at MIKE in rookie minicamp and early in OTAs before declaring at the opening of camp that he will "be focussing at OLB for now." 

 

So it started definitely outside, switched to "maybe both" though never convincing, then back to "focussing outside."

[Motorin']

13 hours ago, poblano said:

They never said any similar to that.  From the moment they drafted him immediately said that It was going to play OLB

 

No, from the moment they drafted him they said he was going to start out at OLB, and then clarified that is bc learning the MIC position is a lot in year 1. 

 

They never said he won't get a shot at MIC and that he is only an OLB. 

 

 

[GunnerBill]

14 hours ago, PBF81 said:

 

Here are his weaknesses and summaries according to NFL.com, SI.com, and PFF.com draft profiles.  There are others but they more or less mimic these.  

 

Sorry about the lack of formatting, I was lazy.  LOL  

 

Tick slow to anticipate runner’s lane choice at times.

Scrapes to the football can lack control and leverage.

Below average point-of-attack strength/skill set.

Swallowed by blocks on second level.

Kansas State’s blocking scheme found him all afternoon in 2022 matchup.

Recognizes play design but fails to beat blocker to the spot.

 

Long strider who isn’t the quickest changing direction when hips need to open

Appeared to be a bit stiff in the lower half - a bit high-hipped

Trigger downhill is adequate and not always instantaneous

Short-area-quickness in a phone booth leaves some to be desired

Shifty players can make him miss in a phone booth

Stack and shed has to improve

Reads pullers well but struggles to quickly discard blocks

Struggles to shed blocks when blockers get into his chest

- Bearcats Q2 4:22, 3rd & 3 18 yd run

- Houston OT 15:00, 1st & 10 5 yd run

- Southern Miss Q4 4:31, 3rd & 11 11yd run

Questions about his man coverage ability are fair

Adequate awareness in zone coverage - not consistently aware of routes behind him

Needs to improve his reaction to screen passes

 

 

Summary

Dorian Williams is fast, big, and has upside as a pass-rusher. He had a productive senior season as one of the leaders of an underrated Tulane defense. There’s a reason why Tulane went 12-2 with an impressive Cotton Bowl victory over USC, and players like Williams contribute to that reason. Williams is not a polished linebacker, nor is he an incredible athlete at the position. However, Williams was well-rounded, assignment-sound, and a reliable overall tackler.

I appreciate Williams ability to read & react to run concepts in the box, specifically power/gap plays, but his inability to consistently shed climbing IOL was an issue that will plague him at the next level. He needs to react quicker to leverage his length or develop ways to avoid the contact but not compromise his position; he’s a bit stiff in his lower half, which may hinder the latter proposition.

Williams is adequate as a spot-drop zone defender. Tulane ran a lot of different coverage concepts; he was adequate in matching routes underneath him but wasn’t always aware of route concepts and what lurked behind him. He’s not the most natural at flipping his hips instantaneously, which could be an issue in the NFL against shiftier RBs. He has the necessary linear speed, but the quick change of direction with opening and closing of the hips leaves some to be desired.

Overall, Williams is a developmental special teams asset with some upside as a two-down starter. I don’t necessarily think he’s limited to one type of scheme, albeit he may best fit in as a WILL initially rather than a MIKE or SAM. I’m interested to see how he tests and if he can improve his overall fluidity in space, specifically when he's not square to the line of scrimmage. 

His ability to blitz could be something that helps him earn snaps early on passing downs. His competitive nature will draw attention, and he should be an early-impact player on special team with starter upside eventually. Williams has a high ceiling, but there’s some necessary development that must take place.

 

Williams looks and moves more like a big box safety with his bursts to the football and open-field fluidity. Lacking the size and strength to match up with NFL take-on duties near the line, Williams needs to become more adept at slipping blocks and staying a step ahead of the blocking scheme. His coverage potential and special teams background will give his roster quest a boost as a likely Day 3 selection looking to fit into a backup role as a Will linebacker.

 

Where he wins: Coverage feel

Williams is a very adept zone defender with the plus athletic tools to make quarterbacks think twice about throwing his way. He allowed only 161 yards in coverage in 2022.

What’s his role: WLB

Williams isn’t the guy you want taking on fullbacks in the hole anytime soon. He’s the one you want cleaning up for that guy.

What can he Improve: Taking on blocks

Williams has the “want to” in the run game, but his life is difficult at 228 pounds. He has to have more answers to work around blocks.

 

 

And a LOT of the stuff about lane discipline and getting off blocks has shown up on tape in the two pre-season games. It is why I remain lukewarm to the idea of throwing him in at MIKE even though I do think he is a better football player than the other candidates - Dodson, Klein, Bernard. He could play MLB in coverage. I'm pretty sure on that.... but he'd be just as much a magnet for the run game as those other guys. Why bother throwing it when I can run right at your middle linebacker down in down out safe in the knowledge that my blocking will swallow him up. If you are starting Williams you are going to have to give Milano some of the mike run game responsibilities and that isn't really his strength either. 

 

I like Williams, like him a lot, but he is not as of this moment a start MLB. 

[FireChans]

1 minute ago, GunnerBill said:

 

 

And a LOT of the stuff about lane discipline and getting off blocks has shown up on tape in the two pre-season games. It is why I remain lukewarm to the idea of throwing him in at MIKE even though I do think he is a better football player than the other candidates - Dodson, Klein, Bernard. He could play MLB in coverage. I'm pretty sure on that.... but he'd be just as much a magnet for the run game as those other guys. Why bother throwing it when I can run right at your middle linebacker down in down out safe in the knowledge that my blocking will swallow him up. If you are starting Williams you are going to have to give Milano some of the mike run game responsibilities and that isn't really his strength either. 

 

I like Williams, like him a lot, but he is not as of this moment a start MLB. 

I think this LB group is going to be all over the place all year. They will be subbing guys in and out for like 8 weeks. 

[Ethan in Cleveland]

38 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Nope it was the other way around. In the post pick presser Brandon Beane said - direct quote - "We'll start him outside" and when pushed "Year 1 we'll keep him outside." Then when he was asked in the end of draft wrap up presser he walked that back slightly and said - direct quote - "Dorian, we'll see. We're not ruling it out. We're still talking about maybe we'll look at him as a guy to get in there and compete at Mike." Which is such a heavily caveated phrase it sounds like he never meant it. They then did play him at MIKE in rookie minicamp and early in OTAs before declaring at the opening of camp that he will "be focussing at OLB for now." 

 

So it started definitely outside, switched to "maybe both" though never convincing, then back to "focussing outside."

Thanks. I missed the immediate press conference I guess. If the original answer by Beane is accurate then the pick and thought process is more messed up than I thought. The only reason to draft a Milano backup is if you plan on moving on from him next off season as a cap casualty. 

Its really sad we are talking about two years worth of wasted 3rd round picks.

[PBF81]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

He could play MLB in coverage. I'm pretty sure on that.... but he'd be just as much a magnet for the run game as those other guys.  

 

Indeed, exactly.  

 

Therefore, as it stands, we are two deep at WLB, but have no MLB/ILB.  

 

 

[Alphadawg7]

15 hours ago, PBF81 said:

 

No worries.  

 

BTW, this place was flooded with posters claiming that Williams would play MLB.  For the life of me I have no idea why since shortly after they drafted him they said he'd backup Milano.  But again, that raises questions as to why they'd draft a backup at OLB before trying to grab a potential starter or at least someone to compete for a vacant position instead.  

 

 

 

Its because they have multiple times referred to him potentially playing MLB for us.  They specifically stated they are starting him off behind Milano so he wouldn't have to learn 2 positions as a rookie.  I don't know why you keep ignoring the fact they have directly referenced him potentially being a MIKE for us, which they have done multiple times including after the draft and heading into camp.  

[GunnerBill]

3 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Its because they have multiple times referred to him potentially playing MLB for us.  They specifically stated they are starting him off behind Milano so he wouldn't have to learn 2 positions as a rookie.  I don't know why you keep ignoring the fact they have directly referenced him potentially being a MIKE for us, which they have done multiple times including after the draft and heading into camp.  

 

I only have that one, heavily caveated reference from Beane in the end of draft weekend presser. They did them play him at some MIKE in the rookie minicamp and OTAs but twice - both the short presser immediately after the pick and the presser to open camp Beane has explicitly discounted that option in 2023. I'm of the view that they might have to reconsider it at some point (or at least re-consider the notion of Milano and Williams as the two starters whichever round they choose to play it) because they are up a creek without a paddle at this stage. But it is pretty clear to me that when Brandon Beane turned the card in he was not thinking "this is my middle linebacker". He was sticking to his board and Williams was picked right about where I had him graded and where I think most people thought he belonged, end of day two territory. 

[TFBillsfan]

My core frustration with this topic, is Beane and McDermott already knew they had a gap at MLB when Edmunds departed in FA. Why in the world would they use a 3rd pick on an OLB when they already had a proven player with a new contract in Milano at OLB.
 

If they truly believed Bernard or Dodson was Edmunds successor, I have even more questions. They totally ignored the position. There was nothing last season or in training camp to double down on Bernard or Dodson.

 

Thats twice Beane used and missed in the 3rd round at LB on questionable players and we still have no viable solution going into the season or the future at MLB. I do believe Williams has far more potential long term though. However, I question if that was the best use of a 3rd round pick knowing our needs.

 

I’m supportive of them both as their body of work is solid but they’ve shown a history of making some headscratching decisions. IMO, it’s these little things that can ultimately keep them from achieving a SuperBowl.

 

 

[Not at the table Karlos]

21 hours ago, Charles Romes said:

I’m thinking shakir benched himself last year. They wanted to give him chances. He just never made the most of it and mind numbing drops were observed when he did see the field or he played high percentage of snaps and was not open. Josh has never avoided throwing to an open receiver. 

This is not accurate.

[Alphadawg7]

2 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I only have that one, heavily caveated reference from Beane in the end of draft weekend presser. They did them play him at some MIKE in the rookie minicamp and OTAs but twice - both the short presser immediately after the pick and the presser to open camp Beane has explicitly discounted that option in 2023. I'm of the view that they might have to reconsider it at some point (or at least re-consider the notion of Milano and Williams as the two starters whichever round they choose to play it) because they are up a creek without a paddle at this stage. But it is pretty clear to me that when Brandon Beane turned the card in he was not thinking "this is my middle linebacker". He was sticking to his board and Williams was picked right about where I had him graded and where I think most people thought he belonged, end of day two territory. 

Well considering he’s looked like the 2nd best LB on the team so far, they are going to need to consider moving Milano over to MLB and Dorian to WLB sooner rather than later if one of our other guys can’t secure the MIKE sufficiently enough.  
 

Hopefully Bernard comes back and shows better than Dodson has so far , but until he or someone else steps up better at the MIKE, I don’t think our defense is better with Dorian on the bench behind MIlano.  

[PBF81]

2 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

Its because they have multiple times referred to him potentially playing MLB for us.  They specifically stated they are starting him off behind Milano so he wouldn't have to learn 2 positions as a rookie.  I don't know why you keep ignoring the fact they have directly referenced him potentially being a MIKE for us, which they have done multiple times including after the draft and heading into camp.  

 

All I know is that almost immediately after the Draft they said he wouldn't be playing MLB, that he'd be playing WLB.  That's out there online.  

 

No need to argue about it.  It is what it is.  Don't look at me to defend what they say.  I don't agree with their approach to building our roster.  

 

This is one glaring example of why not.  

 

 

[GunnerBill]

29 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

Well considering he’s looked like the 2nd best LB on the team so far, they are going to need to consider moving Milano over to MLB and Dorian to WLB sooner rather than later if one of our other guys can’t secure the MIKE sufficiently enough.  
 

Hopefully Bernard comes back and shows better than Dodson has so far , but until he or someone else steps up better at the MIKE, I don’t think our defense is better with Dorian on the bench behind MIlano.  

 

Yea I think at some point they have to be willing to look at options they have previously ruled out. Whether that is Milano in the middle, Williams in the middle, or something crazier like Tyler Rapp as a full time linebacker I don't know. But it feels like we are in Bernard or bust territory from the "competition" and he was already behind Dodson when he got injured which doesn't reassure me.

[gonzo1105]

Williams will be a great player and he needs to start and take his lumps this year. I had him as the # 2 MLB in the draft last year and he hasn’t proven me wrong yet. He has shown some high level skills just didn’t think we’d have to throw him to the wolves this early 

[DCofNC]

On 8/21/2023 at 1:51 PM, Limeaid said:

 

It is very hard for a rookie to come in and make calls on defense even if player has skills to play the position.

 

Then hand the keys to Milano.  It’s not like there is a rule saying the Mike HAS to be the captain. 

[oldmanfan]

I was watching the second half today.  Williams is quick and clearly athletic, but I didn’t really see him make many plays.  He’ll need time to learn.

[BillsFanForever19]

1 hour ago, DCofNC said:

Then hand the keys to Milano.  It’s not like there is a rule saying the Mike HAS to be the captain. 

 

You don't take an All Pro at one position and make him switch positions because there's better depth behind him than at the other position. That's crazy. Milano's an All Pro OLB. You don't mess with that and have him play differently.

 

On top of the reasoning listed as to why asking a Rookie to start at MLB is a tall ask - do you know what we have behind Milano at OLB if Dorian Williams were to start off at MLB?

 

Absolutely nothing. Nada. Zilch. AJ Klein, Tyrel Dodson, and Terrel Bernard are all MLB's. Tyler Matakevitch is a Special Teams player exclusively.

 

If Milano goes down for any amount of time or even just needs a breather, Williams is in. I know Drafting an OLB prospect when we had less than stellar MLB's and were hoping for something more than what we had was confusing.

 

But we needed another OLB and that's what he was Drafted as. Beane said as much after Drafting him. Williams has flexibility. Maybe next year they try it. But they needed him at OLB this season.

 

You can't go into the season with 1 OLB, 4 MLB's, and a Special Teamer as your LB core.

Edited August 22, 2023 by BillsFanForever19

[DCofNC]

2 hours ago, BillsFanForever19 said:

 

You don't take an All Pro at one position and make him switch positions because there's better depth behind him than at the other position. That's crazy. Milano's an All Pro OLB. You don't mess with that and have him play differently.

 

On top of the reasoning listed as to why asking a Rookie to start at MLB is a tall ask - do you know what we have behind Milano at OLB if Dorian Williams were to start off at MLB?

 

Absolutely nothing. Nada. Zilch. AJ Klein, Tyrel Dodson, and Terrel Bernard are all MLB's. Tyler Matakevitch is a Special Teams player exclusively.

 

If Milano goes down for any amount of time or even just needs a breather, Williams is in. I know Drafting an OLB prospect when we had less than stellar MLB's and were hoping for something more than what we had was confusing.

 

But we needed another OLB and that's what he was Drafted as. Beane said as much after Drafting him. Williams has flexibility. Maybe next year they try it. But they needed him at OLB this season.

 

You can't go into the season with 1 OLB, 4 MLB's, and a Special Teamer as your LB core.

In no way was I suggesting moving Milano, rather, just let him call the D.  He’s the best player out there, why hand off the calling to a scrub?

[Billever76]

Move Milano to MLB and put Dorian outside...Milano definitely could learn the MLB slot even though he is lacking a bit in size he makes up for it with instinct 

[BUFFALOTONE]

On 8/21/2023 at 3:41 PM, NastyNateSoldiers said:

The Chiefs had 4 rookies starting on defense last yr and won it all. A big part of the reason they won was the experience those rookies got during the season. McD needs to learn from his old mentor some serious lessons. 

Spagnola is a very underrated coach and trusted his players.