Dorian and my pet peeve with the staff on rookies

[Charles Romes]

I’m thinking shakir benched himself last year. They wanted to give him chances. He just never made the most of it and mind numbing drops were observed when he did see the field or he played high percentage of snaps and was not open. Josh has never avoided throwing to an open receiver. 

[Mr. WEO]

burn it all down....

[NastyNateSoldiers]

1 hour ago, John from Riverside said:

First, let me say that I absolutely believe that Dorian should be playing that Mike linebacker position rookie mistakes be damned
 

But I understand it we are a championship caliber team, and McDermott doesn’t wanna play a rookie in the middle of his defense

The Chiefs had 4 rookies starting on defense last yr and won it all. A big part of the reason they won was the experience those rookies got during the season. McD needs to learn from his old mentor some serious lessons. 

[PBF81]

2 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

This year for me its Dorian Williams.  We came in with a huge hole at MLB, they said he was drafted with the intent he could be a candidate to play at MLB.  

 

OK, given that there's not a credible Draft Profile on Williams out there that even remotely suggests that he'll ever be a good MLB, what does that tell us?  

 

Seems to me that there are only two options, that "they" were either lying, or that they don't know what they're doing.  I'm open to entertaining either or even both.  Either way, he was forecasted as a WLB all along.  If they wanted to try to squeeze a square peg into a triangular hole, that's on them.  Just sayin'.  They talk as if they can wish their thinking into existence sometimes.  

 

 

2 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

But then they open camp running him behind Milano where he won't see the field much without injuries.  Meanwhile our MLB position is grossly unsettled while Dorian has been shining at a position he likely won't see the field much at.  And I get the concept of them not wanting a rookie learn two positions, but that also means someone else is ready to step up at MLB, and so far that isn't happening.  

 

See above.  But when all you have is depth players, I suppose that's to be expected.  

 

I put it into the poor-planning category.  Maybe instead of taking Cook last season we should have drafted Nakobe Dean, or traded up for him in the 3rd.  ... as one solid option.  Instead, well, here we are.  

 

 

2 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

This year for me its Dorian Williams.  We came in with a huge hole at MLB, they said he was drafted with the intent he could be a candidate to play at MLB.  

 

OK, given that there's not a credible Draft Profile on Williams out there that even remotely suggests that he'll ever be a good MLB, what does that tell us?  

 

Seems to me that there are only two options, that "they" were either lying, or that they don't know what they're doing.  I'm open to entertaining either or even both.  Either way, he was forecasted as a WLB all along.  If they wanted to try to squeeze a square peg into a triangular hole, that's on them.  Just sayin'.  They talk as if they can wish their thinking into existence sometimes.  

 

 

2 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

But then they open camp running him behind Milano where he won't see the field much without injuries.  Meanwhile our MLB position is grossly unsettled while Dorian has been shining at a position he likely won't see the field much at.  And I get the concept of them not wanting a rookie learn two positions, but that also means someone else is ready to step up at MLB, and so far that isn't happening.  

 

See above.  But when all you have is depth players, I suppose that's to be expected.  

 

I put it into the poor-planning category.  Maybe instead of taking Cook last season we should have drafted Nakobe Dean, or traded up for him in the 3rd.  ... as one solid option.  Instead, well, here we are.  

 

They have no choice but to play their rookies this season though.  Fortunately Kincaid and Torrence looked great.  Not sure how much impact a back-up WLB is going to make.  (Williams)  

[Alphadawg7]

20 minutes ago, Charles Romes said:

I’m thinking shakir benched himself last year. They wanted to give him chances. He just never made the most of it and mind numbing drops were observed when he did see the field or he played high percentage of snaps and was not open. Josh has never avoided throwing to an open receiver. 

 

Except he didn't have mind numbing drops.  The one big drop was in the playoff game not during the season and that was a difficult diving catch on a 60 yard rope from Allen in the air in a rookies first playoff game.  You want to see him complete that catch of course, but it wasn't like it went right through his hands as he caught it but on securing it when hitting the ground and rolling to complete the tip nicked the turf and it was over turned under replay.  And people also forget he also a pretty important and touch catch in that game that helped us win the game.  

 

So not sure I can agree that he benched himself during the season because he simply wasn't plagued with drops during the regular season.  

[Alphadawg7]

30 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

 

OK, given that there's not a credible Draft Profile on Williams out there that even remotely suggests that he'll ever be a good MLB, what does that tell us?  

 

Seems to me that there are only two options, that "they" were either lying, or that they don't know what they're doing.  I'm open to entertaining either or even both.  Either way, he was forecasted as a WLB all along.  If they wanted to try to squeeze a square peg into a triangular hole, that's on them.  Just sayin'.  They talk as if they can wish their thinking into existence sometimes.  

 

 

Well considering McD and Beane took a perennial losing franchise, changed the culture, rebuilt the roster in one of the best in the league and are now a perennial contender I would say there are more options than "they were lying" and "they don't know what they were doing."  I think I will trust their scouting of players for their system more than I will trust internet draft profiles, which almost the entirety of them are not coming off the back of the amount of time and research a teams scouting department does on players they are vetting.

 

30 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

 

See above.  But when all you have is depth players, I suppose that's to be expected.  

 

I put it into the poor-planning category.  Maybe instead of taking Cook last season we should have drafted Nakobe Dean, or traded up for him in the 3rd.  ... as one solid option.  Instead, well, here we are.  

 

I think it is too early to play the hindsight game on Cook who is entering the season with potentially a big role.  

 

As far as the hindsight game goes on taking a LB, its funny you say that because the majority of this board was adamantly against using any early picks both last year and this year on LB or even defense at all.  So while you say we should have drafted Dean, that was not the consensus around here by any means.  I don't personally know what you wanted to do, so that is not directed at you, more a general comment about how people felt around here.  

[AuntieEm]

2 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

I definitely understand this approach, and its not wrong, and McD and company have successfully developed guys this way in the past.  However, there comes a time where the hole is too glaring to not start getting the kid exposed to the position and seeing if he can develop there enough this year to be a better option.

 

I am not saying throw Dorian to the wolves at MLB right now, I mean he hasn't been learning the position at all thus far.  I am just saying start getting the kid some reps in practice in case they need to try and make a change later in the season given we haven't seen anyone step up and look ready to cease control of the MLB spot yet.

You mean seize control. Cease control is to give up.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

18 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

I mean they drafted a majority of their best players and starters.  Allen and Edmunds were both raw...Allen became elite and Edmunds made multiple probowls and was top 5 in tackles since entering the league (and proving it can get a lot worse at MLB with him now gone).  Then you got Milano who is one of the better OLB in the league and Tre who was one of the best corners in the league before injury.  They took a raw TE out of college and made him into a pretty good player in Knox who has 15 TD's the last 2 seasons despite limited usage in the pass game and never catching a TD in college.  Then they took a DE in Groot who sat out his last year of college and was raw coming out and turned him into a promising and pretty good young player for us.  

 

Then you have guys who have been good to solid for the team as well such as Oliver, Taron, Benford, Devin, etc too.  Then there is still promising young talent where its too early to know like Elam, Shakir, Cook, Dorian, and of course the big one in Kincaid.  

 

So I personally think they have done a pretty good overall job in developing guys here in a lot of cases even if I don't agree on how they handled some of them like I mentioned in my OP.  

I guess we are more or less in the same camp. 
 

i just wish there were a couple more in the first paragraph, and one of them was still around. 
 

To be real contenders they need a couple more excellent players. Diggs and Von are the other two, Poyer Tre and hyde used to be but may not be now. 

 

someone new needs to become excellent. 

[Alphadawg7]

7 minutes ago, AuntieEm said:

You mean seize control. Cease control is to give up.

 

Good catch, yeah I know the difference and that is what I meant.  Just had originally used cease in a different context and missed it on the edit when I was adjusting what I was saying.

[Alphadawg7]

3 minutes ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

I guess we are more or less in the same camp. 
 

i just wish there were a couple more in the first paragraph, and one of them was still around. 
 

To be real contenders they need a couple more excellent players. Diggs and Von are the other two, Poyer Tre and hyde used to be but may not be now. 

 

someone new needs to become excellent. 

 

Yeah don't disagree.  It is why heading into this offseason I felt this might be Beane's most important draft since landing our QB because we don't have the spending power to go sign top end talent anymore and need to find and develop these guys in the draft.

[PBF81]

11 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

Well considering McD and Beane took a perennial losing franchise, changed the culture, rebuilt the roster in one of the best in the league and are now a perennial contender I would say there are more options than "they were lying" and "they don't know what they were doing."  I think I will trust their scouting of players for their system more than I will trust internet draft profiles, which almost the entirety of them are not coming off the back of the amount of time and research a teams scouting department does on players they are vetting.

 

So far a whole lot of people are questioning their "scouting of players."  i.e. why are we so heavily reliant upon free agents.  (rhetorical)  

 

Otherwise, I'm pretty sure that most of our previous ousted coaches would have "changed the culture" and built the team into a perennial contender with Allen.  Call me nuts.  Oh, have you peeked in on New England over the last three seasons where we're told that their coach is the best.  

 

 

11 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

I think it is too early to play the hindsight game on Cook who is entering the season with potentially a big role.  

 

You've now altered the context.  This isn't about Cook, it's about Dean or Cook.  When Dean turns into a monster player this season in Philly, it'll be unfortunate to consider that we could have had him here.  Also in context, and again, our illustrious FO and scouting staff have no answer after Edmunds' departure, that much is clear.  Otherwise, Cook would have to turn into one helluva RB to suggest that he wasn't worth a solid MLB instead.  

 

On a side note, Cook's never even approached carrying a full time load, and he's not even a 3-down back on top of that, so the likelihood that he's worth an empty spot at MLB is pretty slim, particularly in a league where RBs can't get hired and where everyone knows that they can be had in the draft 

 

 

11 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

As far as the hindsight game goes on taking a LB, its funny you say that because the majority of this board was adamantly against using any early picks both last year and this year on LB or even defense at all.  So while you say we should have drafted Dean, that was not the consensus around here by any means.  I don't personally know what you wanted to do, so that is not directed at you, more a general comment about how people felt around here.  

 

Well, that's interesting.  My take was in planning for Edmunds' departure.  Make more sense now?   

 

Otherwise for years now I've been for the drafting of OL-men as a priority.  

 

Either way, shouldn't that reflect upon our illustrious scouts and FO?  

 

This is what happens when you get a defensive minded head coach that's obsessed with having the best defense in a league where offenses carry teams to championships, wouldn't you say.  

 

 

[billieve420]

I am just curious why they don't have Milano call plays for the defense or one of the safeties Hyde or Poyer. I would have at least seen whether Milano could handle playing 2 positions and try his hand at middle linebacker.

[Brianmoorman4jesus]

I’d have found a way to get Milano and Williams out there together. It’s a passing league, I want the speed. The ***** we do is infuriating sometimes. Roster mismanagement is borderline constant imo

[Ethan in Cleveland]

3 hours ago, Limeaid said:

 

It is very hard for a rookie to come in and make calls on defense even if player has skills to play the position.

 

Huh? How hard could it possibly be? Edmunds did it and he didn’t sound like a Rhodes scholar when he spoke.

39 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Well considering McD and Beane took a perennial losing franchise, changed the culture, rebuilt the roster in one of the best in the league and are now a perennial contender I would say there are more options than "they were lying" and "they don't know what they were doing."  I think I will trust their scouting of players for their system more than I will trust internet draft profiles, which almost the entirety of them are not coming off the back of the amount of time and research a teams scouting department does on players they are vetting.

 

 

I think it is too early to play the hindsight game on Cook who is entering the season with potentially a big role.  

 

As far as the hindsight game goes on taking a LB, its funny you say that because the majority of this board was adamantly against using any early picks both last year and this year on LB or even defense at all.  So while you say we should have drafted Dean, that was not the consensus around here by any means.  I don't personally know what you wanted to do, so that is not directed at you, more a general comment about how people felt around here.  

You really think Bernard was a good pick in the 3rd round? I don’t think there is a single person that thought that was a good pick. Virtually no except McD thinks he is a capable NFL linebacker. Which really begs the question who makes these draft day decisions?

[Punching Bag]

13 minutes ago, Ethan in Cleveland said:

Huh? How hard could it possibly be? Edmunds did it and he didn’t sound like a Rhodes scholar when he spoke.

 

Edmunds came from a football family and had a lot of experience on how NFL worked before he got to NFL.

[Einstein's Dog]

To me the OP has the right hope but placed in the wrong spot. 

 

Let's get Kincaid out there early.  Early and often.   It is so much a possibility people seem to take it for granted now.  Use Kincaid from the start.   You let Kincaid play through errors if necessary.  Kincaid is the guy to use quickly

 

Get Torrence PT and hopefully starting by 4-5 games into the season.

 

As for Williams, not so fast.  I've been surprised the MLB hasn't been a Klein/Rapp split from the start.   Williams is in no way Kincaid.

 

Shakir wasn't ready for a larger role then.  And I don't know if he has earned a role now even.  Cook needed time but has responded, Shakir not so much.

[Alphadawg7]

15 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

 

So far a whole lot of people are questioning their "scouting of players."  i.e. why are we so heavily reliant upon free agents.  (rhetorical)  

 

Otherwise, I'm pretty sure that most of our previous ousted coaches would have "changed the culture" and built the team into a perennial contender with Allen.  Call me nuts.  Oh, have you peeked in on New England over the last three seasons where we're told that their coach is the best.  

 

You are not even making sense now.  The majority of our key players were drafted by this staff and front office.  And then there were guys like Hyde and Poyer who didn't reach high level of play until they got here, especially Poyer.  Hyde showed some promise in GB as a young player, but he wasn't yet at the level he reached here.  And Poyer was an after thought signing that grew into one of the best safeties of the game here.  

 

What is the evidence of "heavily" reliant upon free agents?  You do know every team in the NFL signs free agents every season right?  We don't rely on them any more than any other team and have had really only made one huge FA signing in Von.

 

Meanwhile on offense we drafted our QB, RB, WR2, Slot WR, both TE's half our starting OL...on defense we drafted our DT, several DE's, all our LB's projected to start, all our CB's.  And again, we brought in Hyde and Poyer as cheap under the radar free agents that our scouts targeted and developed them into one of the best safety tandems in the league.  

 

15 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

 

 

 

You've now altered the context.  This isn't about Cook, it's about Dean or Cook.  When Dean turns into a monster player this season in Philly, it'll be unfortunate to consider that we could have had him here.  Also in context, and again, our illustrious FO and scouting staff have no answer after Edmunds' departure, that much is clear.  Otherwise, Cook would have to turn into one helluva RB to suggest that he wasn't worth a solid MLB instead.  

 

On a side note, Cook's never even approached carrying a full time load, and he's not even a 3-down back on top of that, so the likelihood that he's worth an empty spot at MLB is pretty slim, particularly in a league where RBs can't get hired and where everyone knows that they can be had in the draft 

 

 

I didn't alter the context at all...I specifically said its too early to play the hindsight game with Cook.  You are just stating your opinion that Cook won't be a good RB and that Dean will be a "solid" LB.  We don't know either of those things yet, so again, too early to play hindsight games.  

 

 

15 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

 

Well, that's interesting.  My take was in planning for Edmunds' departure.  Make more sense now?   

 

Otherwise for years now I've been for the drafting of OL-men as a priority.  

 

Either way, shouldn't that reflect upon our illustrious scouts and FO?  

 

This is what happens when you get a defensive minded head coach that's obsessed with having the best defense in a league where offenses carry teams to championships, wouldn't you say.  

 

 

 

Am I the only one that catches the irony here lmao?  You are literally complaining we drafted offense instead of defense with Cook while also simultaneously ranting that its because our HC is obsessed with defense?  Lol, how does that even make sense lmao

[Big Blitz]

Not sure I’ve ever bought this.  
 

They played Gabe Davis. 

 

I forgot Knox.   
 

Benford started opposite Jackson last year.  
 

Then Elam started when Benford was hurt. 
 

Groot and Oliver have been playing since day 1.  
 

Same Spencer Brown.  
 

And looks like Torrence will be starting.  
 

And Kincaid.   

 

 

 

Have I debunked this yet?

Edited August 21, 2023 by Big Blitz

[AuntieEm]

35 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Good catch, yeah I know the difference and that is what I meant.  Just had originally used cease in a different context and missed it on the edit when I was adjusting what I was saying.

Doesn't help when you read it back it sounds like seize enough not to stand out as the wrong word.

 

 

[OldTimer1960]

3 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

Well, I just logged in to see if there was some news out of practice that Williams was taking reps in the middle.  I found no news, but at least there was some speculation on the subject. 

 

Alpha, I gotta say I don't completely agree, because I think McD knows more about this than we do.  At least in general.  

 

I've watched a lot of kids go from high school sports to college sports and a lot go from college to the pros, and there is one comment that is repeated regularly:   It's a big jump.  It's not the same game, and the talent and knowledge levels of the veterans is way above that of the rookies coming in.  I think coaches will tell you that they see it all the time - the rookies on the team simply can't compete with the veterans on the team.  Many of the rookies actually take a year or two before they can compete, and two or more years before they can hold their own.   It's just in the nature of sports.  

 

And what goes along with that is what McDermott always says about his players - it's a competition, and the best player gets the playing time.  The best player is not the player with the most potential; it's the player who plays the best.  A couple of weeks ago I was arguing with people daily about why Elam isn't getting more playing time.  One of the arguments was that he needs the experience on the field to get better.  He's the most talented, so the Bills should let him grow into the position by playing him.   That is not how McDermott does it, and I think McDermott is right.   Among other reasons, he's right because the  players on the team know who the best players are, and they want the best players on the field.  They don't want to spill their guts every Sunday playing beside a guy who has potential.  They want the best players out there.  Every second string player on a team wants playing time so that he can grow and develop and prove himself, but the coach can't run the team that way. 

 

As for Williams, there are some arguments to be made to the contrary, but even then, I think we have to defer to the coaches.  You and others make this argument they drafted him to play the middle and then declared at the start of camp that he would begin his career exclusively on the outside.  Well, that declaration was made after they saw him in rookie camp and OTAs.   I think they saw him and realized he just isn't ready yet.  What did they see?   I don't know, but it probably was that he didn't see the field nearly well enough, that he had trouble learning all of the new concepts they were throwing at him.   Whatever, I'm pretty sure that they decided that he just needed time to grow.  I trust that judgment. 

 

Now, things are a little different.  I haven't seen the games, but the reports have been that he's held up pretty well when he's gotten time on the field.  The game hasn't been too big or too fast for him.  So, there's that.   In the middle, on the other hand, no one has stepped up and clearly won the job.  Dodson hasn't done it.   Bernard had his rookie season to get used to the size and speed of the game, but before he got injured he wasn't opening eyes and showing people that he was realizing the potential Beane and McDermott had seen in him.   And there are football games to be played. 

 

For me, the problem is not who's going to play middle linebacker in two weeks against the Jets.  I want to know who's going to play middle linebacker in December.  From what I've heard, only Williams has shown the kind of talent the Bills need at the position.  In this situation, I think the need at the position may call for a different approach than usual.  I would, as you suggest, start teaching him the job now and get him on the field in the middle in the next two preseason games.  If it means having Milano or Hyde call the defense, fine.  Just get him experience and force feed his growth.   In fact, if it's necessary, put Milano in the middle and leave Williams outside.   One way or the other, it's hard to ignore his talent when the other guys are struggling as much as they are. 

There is a lot of truth in what you said here and it absolutely matters that the Bills are contenders, so throwing a rookie in to learn on the job isn’t where this team is.  Now, if they were coming off a 4-12 season looking to be good in a couple of years, the picture would be much different.  
 

However, regarding Elam - he is a 1st round pick running behind the guy they drafted him to replace (Dane Jackson) AND behind the 6th round pick from the same year (Benford).  I got roasted a couple weeks ago for suggesting that they might consider trading Elam while he still has *some* value, but maybe now that the depth chart is pretty set they should revisit that.  I absolutely don’t think they should play Elam ahead of Jackson or Benford if he doesn’t earn it, but it is becoming apparent that they don’t think he is a fit here, so see what they can get.