Dorian and my pet peeve with the staff on rookies

[Alphadawg7]

7 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

They actually said straight away after picking him that they saw him more as an outside guy. And watching his gap discipline and taking on blocks I don't think he is close to ready to play the MIKE.

 

I get it the alternatives are rubbish. Maybe they have to find a way to make the Milano - Williams duo work... but I still suspect to do that now you'd end up with Milano playing the more disciplined MLB role and Williams a little more free to roam as a WLB. 

 

I just think people convincing themselves that if they just went to Williams or just play Rapp in dime looks it would all be okay are slightly deluding themselves. There is no easy answer on the roster unless Bernard gets healthy and suddenly clicks.

 

I don't disagree that they never committed to him moving to the middle, but they did say it was an option for him when they drafted him.  My main point is that the options right now are an issue at the MIKE and its an important position in McD's defense.  So I am hoping that they start looking at ways to get Dorian on the field because he could be the 2nd best LB on the team right now given Dodson, Bernard, etc have yet to step up and take the MLB spot.  

 

I suggested in another thread that maybe they decision to leave Dorian at WLB is because they feel they can move Milano to MLB and Dorian to WLB in a dooms day scenario if MLB spot is still a big issue as the season rolls on.  And if that is the case, then I get it, and actually think that makes a lot of sense.  Although they have rejected the idea of Milano moving there in the past, but doesn't mean they cant change their mind if necessary or realize they have that as a fall back option when needed.  

[MJS]

10 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

The list is a bit longer than that in recent years.  Earlier years when the roster was bad, sure, rookies had a quicker path to the starting lineup.  But the last few years guys like Cook, Elam, Shakir, AJE, Boogie, and now Dorian have had slow paths to the field despite having the need for help at their respective positions.  

Shakir was a 5th rounder. AJ and Boogie have been a regular part of the rotation.

 

Dorian Williams hasn't played a down. The season hasn't started yet.

[GunnerBill]

21 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

I don’t get the last comment. Suddenly clicks? We know absolutely nothing about Bernard.

 

We know what we saw last season and we know what happened early in camp. Dodson was ahead in the battle in terms of reps with the 1s even before Bernard went down.

[GunnerBill]

11 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

I don't disagree that they never committed to him moving to the middle, but they did say it was an option for him when they drafted him.  My main point is that the options right now are an issue at the MIKE and its an important position in McD's defense.  So I am hoping that they start looking at ways to get Dorian on the field because he could be the 2nd best LB on the team right now given Dodson, Bernard, etc have yet to step up and take the MLB spot.  

 

I suggested in another thread that maybe they decision to leave Dorian at WLB is because they feel they can move Milano to MLB and Dorian to WLB in a dooms day scenario if MLB spot is still a big issue as the season rolls on.  And if that is the case, then I get it, and actually think that makes a lot of sense.  Although they have rejected the idea of Milano moving there in the past, but doesn't mean they cant change their mind if necessary or realize they have that as a fall back option when needed.  

 

Yea they are in panic stations mode. Things that were previously off the table will at some point have to go back on the table but I just don't see many options to us even getting mediocre production at the spot. The likelihood is it is going to be a major weakness that we need to try and hide / scheme around all season. Mike McDaniel running that stretch zone run they ran with Mostart to good effect last year with Dodson, Klein or Bernard moving laterally is terrifying. One can only hope he out thinks himself and doesn't do what Pederson did to us that time in 2019 where he just called it like 7 or 8 plays in a row on the day when Tremaine kept hitting the wrong gap. 

[PBF81]

2 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

Mike McDaniel running that stretch zone run they ran with Mostart to good effect last year with Dodson, Klein or Bernard moving laterally is terrifying. 

 

LOL, but yes, exactly.  

 

On the flip side, if our offense is as good as it can be, we can afford to have a worse D and it likely won't make that much of a difference given that we don't do D come playoff time anyway.  

 

I joke, ... or do I.     

 

 

[Alphadawg7]

5 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Do you think there’s probably a correlation with how good those players are and how much playing time they get? 
 

Are we even sure that Elam, Shakir, AJE, Boogie, Bernard and Williams will be in the league in 3 years?

 

Do I think they will be in the league in 3 years...good question:

• Elam - Yes - He was a first round pick and played well down the stretch including a couple INT's, so yes I think he will be
• Shakir - Probably - This is just a gut feeling on him, I think he made some key plays last year showing promise including a big one in the Dolphins playoff game.  But had we gotten him more reps last year we might have a better idea heading into this season.  His drops in camp are a concern, so no lock either to be.
• AJE - Yes, he is coming off a 6.5 sack season while playing in a rotation for a DC whose defenses are not known for sacks.  
• Boogie - Yes, I think he has shown enough that I believe he can stick in the NFL another 3 years.  I think he even has some trade value and would get more playing time on another team where he wasn't so buried on the depth chart.  
• Bernard - Maybe - Still needs to show he can play in the NFL, especially being undersized.  I wont say for sure he wont be in the NFL in 3 years, but of all the gusy he has the biggest question marks.  Wont write him off yet, I mean he is still competing to start here, but he has the most question marks of this group.
• Dorian - Yes, I actually think he is a promising LB and can play at this level and will still be in the league in 3 years.

[Augie]

14 minutes ago, MJS said:

Shakir was a 5th rounder. AJ and Boogie have been a regular part of the rotation.

 

Dorian Williams hasn't played a down. The season hasn't started yet.

 

I’m not your breakdown guy, but Dorian Williams is a football player who flies to the ball. That is fun to watch, but I’m curious what his downside is other than lack of size for MLB. He seems to be instinctive and react well. Is it just learning the D? 

 

It was a curious draft pick, but I love having “players.” I just don’t know how they use him. 

[noacls]

2 preseason games and Williams has proven he is the 2nd best LB on this team. A good staff would find a way to get him on the field.  

[Alphadawg7]

16 minutes ago, MJS said:

Shakir was a 5th rounder. AJ and Boogie have been a regular part of the rotation.

 

Dorian Williams hasn't played a down. The season hasn't started yet.

 

Maybe you don't remember their rookie years with none of those guys got a lot of run on the field.  

[PBF81]

7 minutes ago, Augie said:

I’m not your breakdown guy, but Dorian Williams is a football player who flies to the ball. That is fun to watch, but I’m curious what his downside is other than lack of size for MLB.

 

Here are his weaknesses and summaries according to NFL.com, SI.com, and PFF.com draft profiles.  There are others but they more or less mimic these.  

 

Sorry about the lack of formatting, I was lazy.  LOL  

 

Tick slow to anticipate runner’s lane choice at times.

Scrapes to the football can lack control and leverage.

Below average point-of-attack strength/skill set.

Swallowed by blocks on second level.

Kansas State’s blocking scheme found him all afternoon in 2022 matchup.

Recognizes play design but fails to beat blocker to the spot.

 

Long strider who isn’t the quickest changing direction when hips need to open

Appeared to be a bit stiff in the lower half - a bit high-hipped

Trigger downhill is adequate and not always instantaneous

Short-area-quickness in a phone booth leaves some to be desired

Shifty players can make him miss in a phone booth

Stack and shed has to improve

Reads pullers well but struggles to quickly discard blocks

Struggles to shed blocks when blockers get into his chest

- Bearcats Q2 4:22, 3rd & 3 18 yd run

- Houston OT 15:00, 1st & 10 5 yd run

- Southern Miss Q4 4:31, 3rd & 11 11yd run

Questions about his man coverage ability are fair

Adequate awareness in zone coverage - not consistently aware of routes behind him

Needs to improve his reaction to screen passes

 

 

Summary

Dorian Williams is fast, big, and has upside as a pass-rusher. He had a productive senior season as one of the leaders of an underrated Tulane defense. There’s a reason why Tulane went 12-2 with an impressive Cotton Bowl victory over USC, and players like Williams contribute to that reason. Williams is not a polished linebacker, nor is he an incredible athlete at the position. However, Williams was well-rounded, assignment-sound, and a reliable overall tackler.

I appreciate Williams ability to read & react to run concepts in the box, specifically power/gap plays, but his inability to consistently shed climbing IOL was an issue that will plague him at the next level. He needs to react quicker to leverage his length or develop ways to avoid the contact but not compromise his position; he’s a bit stiff in his lower half, which may hinder the latter proposition.

Williams is adequate as a spot-drop zone defender. Tulane ran a lot of different coverage concepts; he was adequate in matching routes underneath him but wasn’t always aware of route concepts and what lurked behind him. He’s not the most natural at flipping his hips instantaneously, which could be an issue in the NFL against shiftier RBs. He has the necessary linear speed, but the quick change of direction with opening and closing of the hips leaves some to be desired.

Overall, Williams is a developmental special teams asset with some upside as a two-down starter. I don’t necessarily think he’s limited to one type of scheme, albeit he may best fit in as a WILL initially rather than a MIKE or SAM. I’m interested to see how he tests and if he can improve his overall fluidity in space, specifically when he's not square to the line of scrimmage. 

His ability to blitz could be something that helps him earn snaps early on passing downs. His competitive nature will draw attention, and he should be an early-impact player on special team with starter upside eventually. Williams has a high ceiling, but there’s some necessary development that must take place.

 

Williams looks and moves more like a big box safety with his bursts to the football and open-field fluidity. Lacking the size and strength to match up with NFL take-on duties near the line, Williams needs to become more adept at slipping blocks and staying a step ahead of the blocking scheme. His coverage potential and special teams background will give his roster quest a boost as a likely Day 3 selection looking to fit into a backup role as a Will linebacker.

 

Where he wins: Coverage feel

Williams is a very adept zone defender with the plus athletic tools to make quarterbacks think twice about throwing his way. He allowed only 161 yards in coverage in 2022.

What’s his role: WLB

Williams isn’t the guy you want taking on fullbacks in the hole anytime soon. He’s the one you want cleaning up for that guy.

What can he Improve: Taking on blocks

Williams has the “want to” in the run game, but his life is difficult at 228 pounds. He has to have more answers to work around blocks.

[FireChans]

19 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Do I think they will be in the league in 3 years...good question:

• Elam - Yes - He was a first round pick and played well down the stretch including a couple INT's, so yes I think he will be
• Shakir - Probably - This is just a gut feeling on him, I think he made some key plays last year showing promise including a big one in the Dolphins playoff game.  But had we gotten him more reps last year we might have a better idea heading into this season.  His drops in camp are a concern, so no lock either to be.
• AJE - Yes, he is coming off a 6.5 sack season while playing in a rotation for a DC whose defenses are not known for sacks.  
• Boogie - Yes, I think he has shown enough that I believe he can stick in the NFL another 3 years.  I think he even has some trade value and would get more playing time on another team where he wasn't so buried on the depth chart.  
• Bernard - Maybe - Still needs to show he can play in the NFL, especially being undersized.  I wont say for sure he wont be in the NFL in 3 years, but of all the gusy he has the biggest question marks.  Wont write him off yet, I mean he is still competing to start here, but he has the most question marks of this group.
• Dorian - Yes, I actually think he is a promising LB and can play at this level and will still be in the league in 3 years.

I think you’re overrating just about every single one of those players. 
 

Compare them to second/third year Tre White or Matt Milano or Dion Dawkins. Where there was no question that they were starting caliber players.

 

There’s some cause and effect backwards here. Tre and those guys WERE really good, so they got on the field quick. Guys like Boogie and Cody Ford etc etc were not really good so struggle to get on the field.

 

I don’t think they are starting Shaq Lawson over AJE bc AJE needs to practice more. I think Shaq is viewed by the coaches as a better player. 
 

There’s a chance that one or two of them are hidden gems who are unlucky to be buried. But it’s much more likely that most of them are just not that good.

[Don Otreply]

Imo, Rookies need game time experience to get better,  Sean sometimes brings rookies along a bit to slowly, he has to forgive the occasional gaff, and not bench someone for the last 3/4s of a game or more, because of said gaff. 

[PBF81]

17 minutes ago, noacls said:

2 preseason games and Williams has proven he is the 2nd best LB on this team. A good staff would find a way to get him on the field.  

 

The problem is that given the role that he plays, Milano, Miller, now Lloyd all essentially play similar roles.  

 

This is what I'm referring to when I suggest planning our drafts around more immediate needs rather than players suitable to depth.  Williams may be great in the WLB or even the SLB role, but he's got guys ahead of him that are better, get paid more, and have more experience.  So it's unlikely he'll do much besides in a depth role.  

 

Drafting players on days 1 & 2 in roles where immediate starters are needed, or preferably a season prior to when they'll be needed, like in Edmunds' role, and like Philly did last year by drafting Dean to replace Edwards for example, might be a better plan.  We seem to draft a lot of depth players when starters are needed in other positions.  

 

 

[TFBillsfan]

I like Williams as his upside looks greater than anyone we have at MLB after two preseason games. Not even sure why Torrence hasn’t been declared the starter at this point. He looks solid. However, it will be very disappointing if Beane doesn’t try to swing a trade before roster cuts to address the lack of talent at MLB and OT. The amount of DL depth is too much for go with a void at OT and MLB. Bernard and Dodson haven’t panned out. To just ignore it seems short sided.  Even if he adds someone after final roster cuts, the player will only have a small window to learn before the first regular season game in the system.

 

Lastly, I’m not a fan of the new roster cut format. I would think the NFLPA wouldn’t be either.

[Alphadawg7]

5 minutes ago, FireChans said:

I think you’re overrating just about every single one of those players. 
 

Compare them to second/third year Tre White or Matt Milano or Dion Dawkins. Where there was no question that they were starting caliber players.

 

There’s some cause and effect backwards here. Tre and those guys WERE really good, so they got on the field quick. Guys like Boogie and Cody Ford etc etc were not really good so struggle to get on the field.

 

I don’t think they are starting Shaq Lawson over AJE bc AJE needs to practice more. I think Shaq is viewed by the coaches as a better player. 
 

There’s a chance that one or two of them are hidden gems who are unlucky to be buried. But it’s much more likely that most of them are just not that good.

 

He only asked if they will be in the league in 3 years, not if they are starting caliber players.  That was the only question I was answering, so I think you are misinterpreting what question I am answering.  They are specifically to whether those players will remain on a 53 man roster 3 years from now.  Nothing more than that.

 

If you want to know who I think has a chance at relevant playing time or starting still in 3 years, then that is a different answer and the list gets much shorter.

4 hours ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

I say start Dorian now so we can hate him quicker than normal.

 

I legit laughed on this one...you win the internet today 

[HappyCat]

6 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

I have a love-hate relationship with how McD and the staff have handled rookies.  Unless we have had no choice, we often bring them along slowly.  And its hard to argue against the results given they have developed a lot of young talent into superstars, quality starters, or good role players.  

 

BUT...there are times where it just doesn't make sense and they need to get the rookies move involved and still don't.  And I just don't understand the hesitation at times.  

 

For example Shakir last year.  With Crowder going down and McKenzie struggling as the top slot WR, it made no sense to not give Shakir more reps out there to at least get him some experience and see what he could do.  And they could have always added Cole after if he wasn't up to the task.  Instead, we are entering this year with him penciled in as the slot still with big question marks around him because we didn't get him on the field enough last year despite some promising plays from him.  Even AJE, they took him 2nd round and then buried him on the depth chart behind guys at the end of their careers and he basically barely saw any time as a rookie.  And honestly, he has never not been buried despite strong camps, showing some promise, and even a 6.5 sack season last year.  

 

This year for me its Dorian Williams.  We came in with a huge hole at MLB, they said he was drafted with the intent he could be a candidate to play at MLB.  But then they open camp running him behind Milano where he won't see the field much without injuries.  Meanwhile our MLB position is grossly unsettled while Dorian has been shining at a position he likely won't see the field much at.  And I get the concept of them not wanting a rookie learn two positions, but that also means someone else is ready to step up at MLB, and so far that isn't happening.  

 

I am hoping the continued unsettled nature of the MLB will cause them to start getting Dorian some reps in practice soon or early in the season for a possible switch by mid to late season.  He is showing a lot of promise, and I just hope they don't sit on this kid for a season like they have done at times in the past.  If someone doesn't lock down the MLB position, they absolutely better see if Dorian can be the guy before we head into next offseason.  

Strongly agree about Williams.  It's getting to be a young players NFL

[FireChans]

7 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

He only asked if they will be in the league in 3 years, not if they are starting caliber players.  That was the only question I was answering, so I think you are misinterpreting what question I am answering.  They are specifically to whether those players will remain on a 53 man roster 3 years from now.  Nothing more than that.

 

If you want to know who I think has a chance at relevant playing time or starting still in 3 years, then that is a different answer and the list gets much shorter.

 

I legit laughed on this one...you win the internet today 

I asked that lol. Fair enough. 

[Augie]

28 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

 

Here are his weaknesses and summaries according to NFL.com, SI.com, and PFF.com draft profiles.  There are others but they more or less mimic these.  

 

Sorry about the lack of formatting, I was lazy.  LOL  

 

Tick slow to anticipate runner’s lane choice at times.

Scrapes to the football can lack control and leverage.

Below average point-of-attack strength/skill set.

Swallowed by blocks on second level.

Kansas State’s blocking scheme found him all afternoon in 2022 matchup.

Recognizes play design but fails to beat blocker to the spot.

 

Long strider who isn’t the quickest changing direction when hips need to open

Appeared to be a bit stiff in the lower half - a bit high-hipped

Trigger downhill is adequate and not always instantaneous

Short-area-quickness in a phone booth leaves some to be desired

Shifty players can make him miss in a phone booth

Stack and shed has to improve

Reads pullers well but struggles to quickly discard blocks

Struggles to shed blocks when blockers get into his chest

- Bearcats Q2 4:22, 3rd & 3 18 yd run

- Houston OT 15:00, 1st & 10 5 yd run

- Southern Miss Q4 4:31, 3rd & 11 11yd run

Questions about his man coverage ability are fair

Adequate awareness in zone coverage - not consistently aware of routes behind him

Needs to improve his reaction to screen passes

 

 

Summary

Dorian Williams is fast, big, and has upside as a pass-rusher. He had a productive senior season as one of the leaders of an underrated Tulane defense. There’s a reason why Tulane went 12-2 with an impressive Cotton Bowl victory over USC, and players like Williams contribute to that reason. Williams is not a polished linebacker, nor is he an incredible athlete at the position. However, Williams was well-rounded, assignment-sound, and a reliable overall tackler.

I appreciate Williams ability to read & react to run concepts in the box, specifically power/gap plays, but his inability to consistently shed climbing IOL was an issue that will plague him at the next level. He needs to react quicker to leverage his length or develop ways to avoid the contact but not compromise his position; he’s a bit stiff in his lower half, which may hinder the latter proposition.

Williams is adequate as a spot-drop zone defender. Tulane ran a lot of different coverage concepts; he was adequate in matching routes underneath him but wasn’t always aware of route concepts and what lurked behind him. He’s not the most natural at flipping his hips instantaneously, which could be an issue in the NFL against shiftier RBs. He has the necessary linear speed, but the quick change of direction with opening and closing of the hips leaves some to be desired.

Overall, Williams is a developmental special teams asset with some upside as a two-down starter. I don’t necessarily think he’s limited to one type of scheme, albeit he may best fit in as a WILL initially rather than a MIKE or SAM. I’m interested to see how he tests and if he can improve his overall fluidity in space, specifically when he's not square to the line of scrimmage. 

His ability to blitz could be something that helps him earn snaps early on passing downs. His competitive nature will draw attention, and he should be an early-impact player on special team with starter upside eventually. Williams has a high ceiling, but there’s some necessary development that must take place.

 

Williams looks and moves more like a big box safety with his bursts to the football and open-field fluidity. Lacking the size and strength to match up with NFL take-on duties near the line, Williams needs to become more adept at slipping blocks and staying a step ahead of the blocking scheme. His coverage potential and special teams background will give his roster quest a boost as a likely Day 3 selection looking to fit into a backup role as a Will linebacker.

 

Where he wins: Coverage feel

Williams is a very adept zone defender with the plus athletic tools to make quarterbacks think twice about throwing his way. He allowed only 161 yards in coverage in 2022.

What’s his role: WLB

Williams isn’t the guy you want taking on fullbacks in the hole anytime soon. He’s the one you want cleaning up for that guy.

What can he Improve: Taking on blocks

Williams has the “want to” in the run game, but his life is difficult at 228 pounds. He has to have more answers to work around blocks.

 

Wait, I know the question was out there so that’s fair, but it just seems right to post the positive with the negative. Jerry Rice was a slow guy from a small school does not tell the story. 

[Einstein's Dog]

41 minutes ago, noacls said:

2 preseason games and Williams has proven he is the 2nd best LB on this team. A good staff would find a way to get him on the field.  

Proven????....because you liked what you saw in 2 vanilla preseason games against dubious competition.

 

And from that you can conclude this as some sort of litmus test that sorts out the good staffs from the bad.   Really?

[PBF81]

38 minutes ago, Augie said:

 

Wait, I know the question was out there so that’s fair, but it just seems right to post the positive with the negative. Jerry Rice was a slow guy from a small school does not tell the story. 

 

The positives are in the profile as well.  As I said, I posted those from nfl.com, pff.com, and si.com.  

 

I only posted the negs because that's what you asked for, as you said and to not have any more info than what was germane.  

 

I personally like walterfootball because they do a lot of their own stuff, or have people that do, and don't always agree with the 90+% of draft profiles out there, and in the past they've matched some of mine on players that I have reviewed.  

 

 

Edited August 22, 2023 by PBF81