Draft Sleepers 2023

[starrymessenger]

On 4/5/2023 at 9:45 AM, BuffaloBill said:

Ford-Wheaton is a freak of nature to be that big and that fast. 
 

WR’s are notoriously hard to develop though. 

Don't know the player but as Gunner points out he seems to have good hands (though apparently has concentration drops), can win contested balls and is a good ball tracker. I wonder what his numbers would have been had he played in Hyatt's spot in that Vol offence where he ran maybe four routes all deep patterns and benefitted from a free release all day long. F-W ran a faster 40 and is a lot bigger. One of the unanswered questions is whether Hyatt can catch short to intermediate routes over the middle of the field and complete contested passes. F-W seems to answer that in the affirmative. Just judging from his highlight reel route running is probably not a positive (no suddenness at the top of his routes and no sharp angles) and I have no idea if he can block (though he has the size). There seems to be plenty to work with there. I Hope he doesn't wind up in KC if he turns into this years Pacheco.

Edited April 6, 2023 by starrymessenger

[Buffalo716]

On 4/5/2023 at 12:41 PM, Paup 1995MVP said:

Have you watched film on my son Justin Ellis out of Georgia Southern?  He was DE/edge.  Switching to LB for the pros.  Had his pro day a couple weeks ago.  Ran 4.56-4.66 depending on whose watch in the 40.  23 reps in the bench.  Played at 255 in college.  Dropped down to 235 to play LB in the pros.  He pulled his hammy at the end of his second 40 at his pro day on 3/17.  Its feeling better.  And he has to do the rest of his drills this weekend by video and send to the scouts.  Says they are talking about him converting to FB in the pros.  

He started his career at SU

 

and congratulations! That is a tough transition to FB …. Only about 6 teams use them in NFL

 

and it’s a Throwback no nonsense position … but he does have the traditional size … I would even go back to 250

[Solomon Grundy]

Another one of my draft sleepers is Charlie Jones WR Purdue. I see him as Cole Beasley 2.0. Guy catches EVERYTHING

[freddyjj]

31 minutes ago, Solomon Grundy said:

Another one of my draft sleepers is Charlie Jones WR Purdue. I see him as Cole Beasley 2.0. Guy catches EVERYTHING

Wow some big #s at Pursue last year.  Wonder what issue was at Iowa?   Also I did not know he played at UB as a freshman. 

[Yantha]

Reposting this here.  It was buried in the Bernard thread but better here.  Thanks for posting.

 

 

For all the discussion about "the top 3", and a few mentioning Noah Sewell, there is another linebacker that has grabbed my attention from a pretty darn good football program.

 

Ben VanSumeren, Michigan State.

This is a player that has flown curiously under the radar, battled some injuries LAST year, and is really starting to peak (in my opinion at the right time).  I see this guy as someone worthy of discussion and honestly, I think that he could come in and compete with Bernard and others on our current roster.

 

He's 6'3, 240lbs and had a good showing for the scouts.

4.40 40

Benched 29X

42.5" vertical

10.11' Broad Jump

 

Here's a nice article:  https://www.si.com/college/michiganstate/football/michigan-state-spartans-football-nfl-draft-pro-day-ben-vansumeren-kendall-brooks-msu-032123

 

Here's an snippet:  "VanSumeren’s performance at Michigan State’s Pro Day showed his strength, athleticism and speed for all NFL scouts to see. In the evolving professional game, linebackers need to be quick to cover space and be able to run with running backs and tight ends in pass coverage. Was VanSumeren’s Pro Day success enough to get him drafted? Maybe late in Day 3 (Rounds 4-7), as game film is still the biggest factor for NFL franchises. "

 

Projected WIDELY from rounds 4-7

And he’s not a bad running back in Michigan before e transferred to State

[MrEpsYtown]

Charlie Jones - love his production, runs great routes, he's always open and he catches everything. He is on the smaller side and he's older, but he has great ball skills and makes contested catches. Guys like this have made 10-12 year career guys. He could be a bigger Cole Beasley who runs 4.4. 

 

 

[OldTimer1960]

On 4/5/2023 at 2:02 PM, BigAl2526 said:

The big question on Bryce Ford-Wheaton is how coachable is he?  Are his shortcomings due to the lack of solid coaching in the past, or laziness, or his football intelligence so poor that he can't learn.  That's all part of the due diligence any team needs to do in scouting a prospect.  That speed-size combination does tend to make me drool a bit.

Big and fast are good, but route running and ability to catch when open and make contested catches are important as well and it is no given that those skills  can be learned enough to play in the NFL.  
 

Late 4th round the gamble is probably worth it, especially in this draft, but every year there are size-speed freaks at the combine who didn’t produce a lot in college and most of them never do anything in the NFL, either.  Of course, there are some exceptions.

[wppete]

Josh Whyle, TE, Cincinnati 

6’6 1/2 - 248lbs

 

 

[MrEpsYtown]

Tyler Steen, Alabama...it's so weird that I don't hear much hype on him. I guess if he had long hair and no teeth people would pay attention. I actually like him better than Anton Harrison and Cody Mauch...however, the thing with Steen is that he might be a guard. Very athletic with good length and he has some nasty to his game. Smart player too. He's the Bills style of player. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

On 4/5/2023 at 12:41 PM, ScorpionZero said:

I'd like to add Bumper Pool as a PUFA, He could be a special teams demon from the seventh ring of hell.

is there someone seriously named Bumper Pool?

 

 

[MrEpsYtown]

1 minute ago, Pine Barrens Mafia said:

is there someone seriously named Bumper Pool?

 

 

 

he looks exactly how I imagined. 

 

 

 

[Warriorspikes51]

Good thread!! Where is WR Jonathan Mingo projected to go?  Rounds 2-3? 

I do like the idea of West Virginia WR  BFW 
 

 

[KingBoots8]

10 minutes ago, Warriorspikes51 said:

Good thread!! Where is WR Jonathan Mingo projected to go?  Rounds 2-3? 

I do like the idea of West Virginia WR  BFW 
 

 

I see Mingo in the 3-4 range personally, meaning he will likely be taken in the late 2-3 range. If he is there at 91 he makes a lot of sense for us in my eyes. I think he’s more athletically gifted than Tank Dell who I could also see us targeting in the 3-4 range.

[OldTimer1960]

25 minutes ago, KingBoots8 said:

I see Mingo in the 3-4 range personally, meaning he will likely be taken in the late 2-3 range. If he is there at 91 he makes a lot of sense for us in my eyes. I think he’s more athletically gifted than Tank Dell who I could also see us targeting in the 3-4 range.

Agree.  He is one of only a few WR with good size.  Many of the best ones in the class are really small in both height and weight.  That doesn’t mean that the smaller guys like Addison, Flowers and Downs can’t help this team, but their size/stature pretty much limits the role they can play to the slot.  Mingo could be seen as competition to Gabe Davis and/or replacement for him if they can’t agree on contract for Davis after this season.

[JohnBonhamRocks]

21 minutes ago, OldTimer1960 said:

Agree.  He is one of only a few WR with good size.  Many of the best ones in the class are really small in both height and weight.  That doesn’t mean that the smaller guys like Addison, Flowers and Downs can’t help this team, but their size/stature pretty much limits the role they can play to the slot.  Mingo could be seen as competition to Gabe Davis and/or replacement for him if they can’t agree on contract for Davis after this season.

IMHO Flowers and Addison can both play inside and outside. 

[OldTimer1960]

7 minutes ago, JohnBonhamRocks said:

IMHO Flowers and Addison can both play inside and outside. 

They might be able to play outside occasionally, but at 5’9” 182 (Flowers) and 5’11” 173 (Addison) they are very small for outside.  I do love their route running, but either will struggle against press coverage and they won’t see that as much in the slot.

 

I’m not saying those smaller guys can’t help this offense, but I think drafting either with the intention of playing them primarily outside would be a mistake.

 

The average size for NFL WR is just over 6’ and 200lbs according to this article below.  Flowers and Addison are significantly below that mark.

 

Edited April 13, 2023 by OldTimer1960

[Toomstone.Part.Duex]

Love Mingo!  He's big, has speed and great hands.   Some of these catches are sick!      Him and Charlie Jones are my two favorite sleeper picks.   

 

 

 

[gonzo1105]

We do these sleeper things every year and then the thread ends up being about guys everyone has heard of or guys going in the first couple of rounds. Those are not sleeper picks. Mingo, Bryce Ford Wheaton etc. everyone has heard of those guys if you even remotely pay close attention to college football/combine. 

3 hours ago, Yantha said:

Reposting this here.  It was buried in the Bernard thread but better here.  Thanks for posting.

 

 

For all the discussion about "the top 3", and a few mentioning Noah Sewell, there is another linebacker that has grabbed my attention from a pretty darn good football program.

 

Ben VanSumeren, Michigan State.

This is a player that has flown curiously under the radar, battled some injuries LAST year, and is really starting to peak (in my opinion at the right time).  I see this guy as someone worthy of discussion and honestly, I think that he could come in and compete with Bernard and others on our current roster.

 

He's 6'3, 240lbs and had a good showing for the scouts.

4.40 40

Benched 29X

42.5" vertical

10.11' Broad Jump

 

Here's a nice article:  https://www.si.com/college/michiganstate/football/michigan-state-spartans-football-nfl-draft-pro-day-ben-vansumeren-kendall-brooks-msu-032123

 

Here's an snippet:  "VanSumeren’s performance at Michigan State’s Pro Day showed his strength, athleticism and speed for all NFL scouts to see. In the evolving professional game, linebackers need to be quick to cover space and be able to run with running backs and tight ends in pass coverage. Was VanSumeren’s Pro Day success enough to get him drafted? Maybe late in Day 3 (Rounds 4-7), as game film is still the biggest factor for NFL franchises. "

 

Projected WIDELY from rounds 4-7

And he’s not a bad running back in Michigan before e transferred to State

 

Combine guy who was a former FB. Might be a hell of a ST in the NFL with his traits. Just didn't see it on film as an every down LB even with Development despite the killer athletic attributes.  Correction not a combine guy but killed the MSU pro day. 

Edited April 13, 2023 by gonzo1105

[Yantha]

1 minute ago, gonzo1105 said:

We do these sleeper things every year and then the thread ends up being about guys everyone has heard of or guys going in the first couple of rounds. Those are not sleeper picks. Mingo, Bryce Ford Wheaton etc. everyone has heard of those guys if you even remotely pay close attention to college football/combine. 

Ben vansumeren.  Check my post above.

[gonzo1105]

1 minute ago, Yantha said:

Ben vansumeren.  Check my post above.

 

Yup, I got you. I commented above about it after the fact. Think he'll be a great STer in the NFL

[CookieG]

1 hour ago, KingBoots8 said:

I see Mingo in the 3-4 range personally, meaning he will likely be taken in the late 2-3 range. If he is there at 91 he makes a lot of sense for us in my eyes. I think he’s more athletically gifted than Tank Dell who I could also see us targeting in the 3-4 range.

I did a mock last night where I took both... Mingo at 91 and Dell at 119 (after a trade down.)

 

But only after I took Wright and Avila.  Yeah, that's me...Im not messing around with fill ins in the OL.

 

Anyhoo...the Mingo situation reminds me of the 2008 draft, but in reverse.  That year, everyone seemed to be looking for the big possession WR who "was open when he wasn't open".  Guys like Devin Thomas, James Hardy, Limas Sweed, Malcom Kelly, Earl Bennett came off the board in the 2nd and 3rd.   Of those, Jordy Nelson was the only one who made it.  But during all of that big man furor, the Eagles took Desean Jackson, one of the few Smaller WRs with speed.

 

This year, its flipped.  Everyone seems to be looking for the smaller, quick slot WR type. Mingo doesn't fit that mold.  And he's talented enough to be the outlier for this class.  Id love him at 91.

 

As to Dell, he has something besides his ability to create space through his cutting ability.  He's very, very good at playing the soft spot in a zone. Most of his catches are him finding  the green space between the CB and the safety.  And...he's been very successful in doing so.  Nearly 200 receptions and 30 TD's in his past 2 seasons. 

[GunnerBill]

2 hours ago, MrEpsYtown said:

Tyler Steen, Alabama...it's so weird that I don't hear much hype on him. I guess if he had long hair and no teeth people would pay attention. I actually like him better than Anton Harrison and Cody Mauch...however, the thing with Steen is that he might be a guard. Very athletic with good length and he has some nasty to his game. Smart player too. He's the Bills style of player. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I like Steen. I have a 4th on him but I think he has a chance to develop into a starter.

[Warriorspikes51]

19 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I like Steen. I have a 4th on him but I think he has a chance to develop into a starter.

Bama. He could start at G or RT for us immediately and be an upgrade 

[OldTimer1960]

58 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I like Steen. I have a 4th on him but I think he has a chance to develop into a starter.

Do you see him as a T or G or both?  

[GunnerBill]

4 minutes ago, OldTimer1960 said:

Do you see him as a T or G or both?  

 

I'd try him at RT first. But if he has to end up inside I am comfortable with him there. The arm length is a concern for a tackle, but on the right side and with his instincts and intelligence he might get away with it.

[Chaos]

Deep sleepers. Justin Shorter WR Florida.  Andrei Iosivas WR, Princeton, Anthony Bradford Guard LSU 

 

Zavala is not a sleeper anymore PFF Zane Athletic both have him going in round three.  Up from 6-7 round a couple of weeks ago. 

1 hour ago, CookieG said:

I did a mock last night where I took both... Mingo at 91 and Dell at 119 (after a trade down.)

 

But only after I took Wright and Avila.  Yeah, that's me...Im not messing around with fill ins in the OL.

 

Anyhoo...the Mingo situation reminds me of the 2008 draft, but in reverse.  That year, everyone seemed to be looking for the big possession WR who "was open when he wasn't open".  Guys like Devin Thomas, James Hardy, Limas Sweed, Malcom Kelly, Earl Bennett came off the board in the 2nd and 3rd.   Of those, Jordy Nelson was the only one who made it.  But during all of that big man furor, the Eagles took Desean Jackson, one of the few Smaller WRs with speed.

 

This year, its flipped.  Everyone seems to be looking for the smaller, quick slot WR type. Mingo doesn't fit that mold.  And he's talented enough to be the outlier for this class.  Id love him at 91.

 

As to Dell, he has something besides his ability to create space through his cutting ability.  He's very, very good at playing the soft spot in a zone. Most of his catches are him finding  the green space between the CB and the safety.  And...he's been very successful in doing so.  Nearly 200 receptions and 30 TD's in his past 2 seasons. 

Dell has also been really durable despite his small stature. Guy must have huge cajones to play with the big boys. 

[MrEpsYtown]

10 minutes ago, Chaos said:

Deep sleepers. Justin Shorter WR Florida.  Andrei Iosivas WR, Princeton, Anthony Bradford Guard LSU 

 

Zavala is not a sleeper anymore PFF Zane Athletic both have him going in round three.  Up from 6-7 round a couple of weeks ago. 

Dell has also been really durable despite his small stature. Guy must have huge cajones to play with the big boys. 

 

 Bradford is interesting to me. I like his traits. 

[JohnBonhamRocks]

3 hours ago, OldTimer1960 said:

They might be able to play outside occasionally, but at 5’9” 182 (Flowers) and 5’11” 173 (Addison) they are very small for outside.  I do love their route running, but either will struggle against press coverage and they won’t see that as much in the slot.

 

I’m not saying those smaller guys can’t help this offense, but I think drafting either with the intention of playing them primarily outside would be a mistake.

 

The average size for NFL WR is just over 6’ and 200lbs according to this article below.  Flowers and Addison are significantly below that mark.

 

Are they undersized? Yes. But Flowers beats guys deep and also make deep contested catches. Similarly, Addison wins on all 3 levels. I do not think we should be targeting a player in the 1st round who will play primarily outside anyways. I’d rather have versatile chess pieces who can be moved around wherever. Inside or outside, the ability to separate is imho the most important trait and both those guys have it. 

[LyndonvilleBill]

27 minutes ago, JohnBonhamRocks said:

Are they undersized? Yes. But Flowers beats guys deep and also make deep contested catches. Similarly, Addison wins on all 3 levels. I do not think we should be targeting a player in the 1st round who will play primarily outside anyways. I’d rather have versatile chess pieces who can be moved around wherever. Inside or outside, the ability to separate is imho the most important trait and both those guys have it. 

I'd rather have primary outside receiver and use Diggs as the chess piece. 😁

[KingBoots8]

2 hours ago, CookieG said:

I did a mock last night where I took both... Mingo at 91 and Dell at 119 (after a trade down.)

 

But only after I took Wright and Avila.  Yeah, that's me...Im not messing around with fill ins in the OL.

 

Anyhoo...the Mingo situation reminds me of the 2008 draft, but in reverse.  That year, everyone seemed to be looking for the big possession WR who "was open when he wasn't open".  Guys like Devin Thomas, James Hardy, Limas Sweed, Malcom Kelly, Earl Bennett came off the board in the 2nd and 3rd.   Of those, Jordy Nelson was the only one who made it.  But during all of that big man furor, the Eagles took Desean Jackson, one of the few Smaller WRs with speed.

 

This year, its flipped.  Everyone seems to be looking for the smaller, quick slot WR type. Mingo doesn't fit that mold.  And he's talented enough to be the outlier for this class.  Id love him at 91.

 

As to Dell, he has something besides his ability to create space through his cutting ability.  He's very, very good at playing the soft spot in a zone. Most of his catches are him finding  the green space between the CB and the safety.  And...he's been very successful in doing so.  Nearly 200 receptions and 30 TD's in his past 2 seasons. 

I really don’t think we could go wrong with either of them in the 3-4 round range. I know everyone loves some of the smaller receivers this year, and I do too in all fairness, but Diggs is eventually going to slow down, and might be better suited for the slot in 2-3 years. I’d rather have that larger guy on the outside for a few years to eventually (hopefully) take over.

 

That said, much as we need a WR to come and compete, we have a big hole at LB, no long term answers after this year at DT, and need to keep Josh protected as higher priorities in my mind. Guys like Campbell (in a trade back to 36-44 range) Avila, Ika, etc are going to be hard to ignore when there is some real quality to this WR class in middle rounds. 

[gonzo1105]

3 minutes ago, KingBoots8 said:

I really don’t think we could go wrong with either of them in the 3-4 round range. I know everyone loves some of the smaller receivers this year, and I do too in all fairness, but Diggs is eventually going to slow down, and might be better suited for the slot in 2-3 years. I’d rather have that larger guy on the outside for a few years to eventually (hopefully) take over.

 

That said, much as we need a WR to come and compete, we have a big hole at LB, no long term answers after this year at DT, and need to keep Josh protected as higher priorities in my mind. Guys like Campbell (in a trade back to 36-44 range) Avila, Ika, etc are going to be hard to ignore when there is some real quality to this WR class in middle rounds. 

 

Yup, i've been saying this for awhile, in an ideal world Stefon Diggs goes into the slot and we find a guy who can stretch the field vertically on the outside. Thats why I have been in the Jalin Hyatt camp this whole time. Diggs can get vertical but he's not that guy, him working the underneath and intermediate areas as he ages will benefit him and the Bills, Davis can get vertical but has no intermediate game. Its either deep or extremely short and I don't expect him here after this year. Hyatt provides that take the top off the defense which will allow guys like Diggs, Shakir, Knox and whoever else to work that short to intermediate. I'm not advocating for Hyatt at 27 at all but with a trade down in the first or a trade up in the 2nd then sure. 

[GunnerBill]

1 hour ago, MrEpsYtown said:

 

 Bradford is interesting to me. I like his traits. 

 

I have a 4th/5th borderline on Bradford. Not sure if he is a Bills fit (he feels like a less refined O'Cyrus Torrence) he really wants to be in a full on gap scheme rather than the hybrid zone scheme the Bills keep trying to run.

[JohnBonhamRocks]

6 minutes ago, LyndonvilleBill said:

I'd rather have primary outside receiver and use Diggs as the chess piece. 😁

You do:

 

[OldTimer1960]

45 minutes ago, JohnBonhamRocks said:

Are they undersized? Yes. But Flowers beats guys deep and also make deep contested catches. Similarly, Addison wins on all 3 levels. I do not think we should be targeting a player in the 1st round who will play primarily outside anyways. I’d rather have versatile chess pieces who can be moved around wherever. Inside or outside, the ability to separate is imho the most important trait and both those guys have it. 

I completely agree that separation ability (and great hands) are the most important traits for WR - quickness and route running skills/know how trump pure speed and size (IMHO).  Flowers,Addison and Downs all are there, to me, but size does matter - particularly on the outside.  It doesn’t matter for good sized receivers, but the fields are crowned some where sidelines are lower than middle of the field.  A shorter WR out there is harder to hit on outs (granted, not as important on deep shots down sideline).  Lighter WR will more likely struggle with physical play from DBs, too.

 

Short/light isn’t a disqualifying factor, but it is a consideration and concern.  Have to weigh everything when evaluating these guys.

[GunnerBill]

3 minutes ago, OldTimer1960 said:

I completely agree that separation ability (and great hands) are the most important traits for WR - quickness and route running skills/know how trump pure speed and size (IMHO).  Flowers,Addison and Downs all are there, to me, but size does matter - particularly on the outside.  It doesn’t matter for good sized receivers, but the fields are crowned some where sidelines are lower than middle of the field.  A shorter WR out there is harder to hit on outs (granted, not as important on deep shots down sideline).  Lighter WR will more likely struggle with physical play from DBs, too.

 

Short/light isn’t a disqualifying factor, but it is a consideration and concern.  Have to weigh everything when evaluating these guys.

 

Yep. And the fact is there isn't an obvious true #1 in this class. I understand those who say "Johnston could be" and I get that. But for reasons you and I have rehearsed a lot he isn't right now and his bust factor is very high too. 

 

I think Addison and Hyatt have the ceiling of good #2s - Hyatt as a vertical threat lower volume high return guy and Addison as more of a volume, move around the formation guy. I think JSN could be a high end slot with some outside flex but you have to factor in the positional value there. 

 

Downs can be a good slot but I can't see him giving you anything at all outside. Flowers is more of a high end Isaiah McKenzie / Devin Duvernay or low end Deebo Samuel type. He can play in the slot but really he wants to be used in a gadget package that is about getting him free releases and the ball in space.  A bit of slot, a bit of wideout that comes inside and catches bubble screens, some end arounds and pop passes, a bit lining up as a back and leaking out. If Kyle Shanahan drafted him he might be a star. But otherwise I think you have to use him too unconventionally to be certain about what you are getting.

 

So all of those guys have a value. But if you were hoping to find a guy who could come in as the #2 and then eventually tale over for Diggs as the #1 that guy isn't in this class IMO.

[JohnBonhamRocks]

2 hours ago, OldTimer1960 said:

I completely agree that separation ability (and great hands) are the most important traits for WR - quickness and route running skills/know how trump pure speed and size (IMHO).  Flowers,Addison and Downs all are there, to me, but size does matter - particularly on the outside.  It doesn’t matter for good sized receivers, but the fields are crowned some where sidelines are lower than middle of the field.  A shorter WR out there is harder to hit on outs (granted, not as important on deep shots down sideline).  Lighter WR will more likely struggle with physical play from DBs, too.

 

Short/light isn’t a disqualifying factor, but it is a consideration and concern.  Have to weigh everything when evaluating these guys.

Certainly a factor to consider generally.

For me Addison and Flowers specifically  pass the eye test. 

[gonzo1105]

In addition to my other guys that I earlier stated in Saldiveri, Brooks, Mapu, Nic Jones, and Jake Andrew’s, I’m also looking at guys like: 

 

Darrell Luter Jr from South Alabama who I think is a 4th rounder

 

 Viliami Fehoko DE from San Jose State

 

Habakkuk Baldonado DE Pitt

[LyndonvilleBill]

3 hours ago, JohnBonhamRocks said:

You do:

 

Yes I do.

 

No Smurfs. 😜

 

I never said Gabe was the answer, but I do believe he will be better this year than last year. 

[NewEra]

Anyone have thoughts on Drake Thomas?

 

https://thedraftnetwork.com/sr-prospect/drake-thomas-fcafb114-0a24-4bbf-8ad9-de285b8d675f/

 

What am I missing other than short with short arms?  Trouble shedding blocks.    Dude looks like a baller to me.  

[OldTimer1960]

2 hours ago, LyndonvilleBill said:

Yes I do.

 

No Smurfs. 😜

 

I never said Gabe was the answer, but I do believe he will be better this year than last year. 

Agree, I think Davis is better than what we saw last year.  Still, Ideally they will bring in legitimate competition for him.