Doctor gives reason for Buffalo abandoning the short to intermediate passing game midseason

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

6 hours ago, Richard Noggin said:

 

Your screen name is Buffalo Super Fan, yet you characterize the 90s Bills as relying solely on their superstar QB?! That's egregiously wrong. That team was absolutely STACKED.

 

For that first SB run, Kelly was throwing to James Lofton and Andre Reed, and handing off (and throwing to) Thurman Thomas. Gold Jackets errwhere. The defense was loaded. There was a contingent of Bills fans back then who argued that Jim Kelly was often, in fact, holding the team back, at times. There were calls for Reich. One could argue that Kelly's ego didn't always call Thurman's number enough...like, say, in their first Super Bowl appearance where Belichick's gameplan relied on Kelly's aggressive tendencies. Even if you ignore Kelly's alleged bullheadedness, the roster was inarguably ELITE. 

 

And wasn't Gilbert Perrault part of an iconic LINE of forwards?! Weren't the THREE of them celebrated in conjunction? 

 

Hasek and Allen seem like fair examples of your take, but some of these others simply don't. 

Yep- stacked is right. They’d send 5-8 players to the bro bowl (when it was meaningful) regularly including o linemen.
 

Nose tackle cb2 and FS maybe one of the guards were the only places they didn’t have top tier talent. 

[BillsFan2313]

1 hour ago, Mr. WEO said:

His intermediate game seems to have miraculously improved after the Bengals game:

 

 

If it was serious, he wouldn't be golfing you would think. 

[Mr. WEO]

9 hours ago, Big Blitz said:

Herbert

Mahomes 

Burrow

Watson 

Tua 

Hurts

 

They’ve all played with the most talented offenses they’ll ever have I can say that with the utmost confidence.  Oline play.  Weapons.   Elite RBs. 
 

 

Allen hasn’t come close to playing with the talent levels those guys have had.  I’m not as down on Dorsey as most.  I’m actually pretty optimistic with him. 
 

The GM responsible for the talent?  Not so much.  

 

 

KC won just won the SB with the "most talented Offense they will ever have"?  After Kelce, list all of their "elite weapons"...

[FireChans]

9 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

KC won just won the SB with the "most talented Offense they will ever have"?  After Kelce, list all of their "elite weapons"...

Juju is an elite TikToker.

 

Kadarius Toney has elite quads without elite hamstrings.

Clyde Edwards Helaire is an elite cheerleader.

[RunTheBall]

Trimball was wrong more often than he was right with player injuries this season. He’s not a medical doctor he’s a doctor of physical therapy. Anyway, he’s correct about the elbow influencing short throws but those are more the screens, bubble screens and wheel routes where he’s throwing at or behind the line of scrimmage.

 

The intermediate game didn’t suffer because of Josh’s elbow, it suffered because Dorsey sucked at making adjustments to what defenses did to take away his bread and butter concepts. 

 

Teams schemed to take away the first couple of reads on the high/low concept and crossers. Because our O-line sucked, Josh had no time to get further in his progression and turned into “Make a play Josh”. The offense had good stats because Josh is an alien, not because Dorsey schemed up easy open throws.

 

That’s going to be the biggest question mark going forward with Dorsey. I fully expect the offense to come out guns blazing. Once teams get some tape, they will scheme to slow it down. Can Dorsey then adjust to those adjustments? We will find out. If he doesn’t, the team will make another early exit.

 

[Big Blitz]

16 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

KC won just won the SB with the "most talented Offense they will ever have"?  After Kelce, list all of their "elite weapons"...

 

Not this season - Hill, Kelce, his 2022 roster.

 

My point was those teams had offenses with elite talent at some point with those QBs.  It wasn’t to say we can’t win with our talent - I’m pointing out those teams have done a better job amassing it on offense and while we’ve had good talent on Offense, Allen has had nothing close to what those QBs have had.  
 

Mahomes offense this year was bolstered by a superior oline - maybe the best he’s had there.   

[Ridgewaycynic2013]

You do realize this thread title will give rise to any of a number of professions offering explanations...🤔

*
'Lawyers cite excess on field litigation from short passes as the reason for going long'.

*
'Chiropodists say fancy footwork too often causes receiver foot distress.  Send those boys long!'

*
'Golden Corral Buffet managers like hungry clients!  Make sure your OC dials up 'the bomb' early and often, and we'll cater to your hungry players post game!'

[Don Otreply]

I heard/read about throwing angles and Joshes elbow a while back, it certainly can have an effect, but I am also certain that throw angles can be modified for short throws to make the throws regularly doable, it’s a matter of “proper play designs” that allow for “adjustments” to be successful…, 

 

Go Bills!!!

[Mr. WEO]

5 minutes ago, Big Blitz said:

 

Not this season - Hill, Kelce, his 2022 roster.

 

My point was those teams had offenses with elite talent at some point with those QBs.  It wasn’t to say we can’t win with our talent - I’m pointing out those teams have done a better job amassing it on offense and while we’ve had good talent on Offense, Allen has had nothing close to what those QBs have had.  
 

Mahomes offense this year was bolstered by a superior oline - maybe the best he’s had there.   

 

Hill was on Miami's roster in 2022.

 

Other than the O-line, KC had one receiver with over 80 catches (Kelce).  M V-S and Juju were other team's throwaways who combined for 5 TDs. 

 

The talent divide wasn't as wide as your are exaggerating...so, it can be done "at some point" without all elite talent.

[TheyCallMeAndy]

Locked On Bills is an amazing podcast with amazing insight. The elbow injury and arm angle is definitely plausible to being a part of why things got weird the last 9 weeks. 

 

John Fina hit the nail on the head yesterday as well. 

11 minutes ago, Don Otreply said:

I heard/read about throwing angles and Joshes elbow a while back, it certainly can have an effect, but I am also certain that throw angles can be modified for short throws to make the throws regularly doable, it’s a matter of “proper play designs” that allow for “adjustments” to be successful…, 

 

Go Bills!!!

I’m sure it can and I’m sure it was, BUT these mechanic changes will affect his accuracy, which we saw. 
 

It’s made very clear in the podcast and the next episode, Bills didn’t lose because Allen’s injury or because “they ran out of gas.” They lost because of poor blocking schemes and a poor overall offensive game plan. Injuries, also, became a huge issue in the end.

[BillsFan130]

10 minutes ago, TheyCallMeAndy said:

Locked On Bills is an amazing podcast with amazing insight. The elbow injury and arm angle is definitely plausible to being a part of why things got weird the last 9 weeks. 

 

John Fina hit the nail on the head yesterday as well. 

I’m sure it can and I’m sure it was, BUT these mechanic changes will affect his accuracy, which we saw. 
 

It’s made very clear in the podcast and the next episode, Bills didn’t lose because Allen’s injury or because “they ran out of gas.” They lost because of poor blocking schemes and a poor overall offensive game plan. Injuries, also, became a huge issue in the end.

Joe Marino is great.

 

He is turning into a bit of a homer which I’m not a fan of lol, but he provides great insights and is very knowledgeable 

[Don Otreply]

9 minutes ago, TheyCallMeAndy said:

Locked On Bills is an amazing podcast with amazing insight. The elbow injury and arm angle is definitely plausible to being a part of why things got weird the last 9 weeks. 

 

John Fina hit the nail on the head yesterday as well. 

I’m sure it can and I’m sure it was, BUT these mechanic changes will affect his accuracy, which we saw. 
 

It’s made very clear in the podcast and the next episode, Bills didn’t lose because Allen’s injury or because “they ran out of gas.” They lost because of poor blocking schemes and a poor overall offensive game plan. Injuries, also, became a huge issue in the end.

I agree that the biggest issues were & are play design and scheming, on both Defense and Offense, injuries never help, but that’s why play design & scheming is so important, adjustments need to be effective and happen in a timely fashion, both of which need to be attended to in a useful way by our HC & coordinators. 
 

GO BILLS!!!

[Mark80]

Yep, accuracy in the short/medium game after the injury was alarmingly off.  Everyone misses some throws, but it was clear to me that this was more than the normal  amount after that injury.  Here's to a full off-season recovery and sneaking up on a lot of folks next season who have written us off as second tier to KC and Cin.

[TheyCallMeAndy]

John Fina also called out 2 guys I’ve defended: Groot and AJE. He said next man up doesn’t mean you become Von, but it does mean you show flashes and produce. He was unhappy with the performance of both.

[uticaclub]

15 minutes ago, TheyCallMeAndy said:

John Fina also called out 2 guys I’ve defended: Groot and AJE. He said next man up doesn’t mean you become Von, but it does mean you show flashes and produce. He was unhappy with the performance of both.

If anyone was happy with their performance they need to step up their game or stick to watching Pop Warner

[Beck Water]

16 hours ago, transplantbillsfan said:

If you listen to Joe Marino, you've heard this. I'll post the YouTube video below of his podcast as well as the source material it was quoted in.

 

Both are super interesting.

 

Basically, Josh Allen’s UCL injury is why we may have shifted to a more downfield passing game.

 

From Dr Kyle Trimble: “the arm/elbow angles based on the type of throw affect how much pain there is and how much stress was placed through the joint. Deeper throws require less accuracy due to decreased elbow flexion, thus reducing stress on the injured joint. Shorter and intermediate throws require more precision with a different throwing motion requiring more elbow flexion. The increased elbow flexion places the injured ligament on tension, causing pain. That in turn would affect speed. The faster he threw, the more torque is required through the elbow joint. However, the pain and instability limited how much torque the elbow could accept. With the offense predicated on timing to be in a specific location at a given time, any alteration in mechanics due to pain, adjusting for elbow brace, or speed could greatly affect the accuracy for ball placement to the receiver.”

 

12 hours ago, DrPJax said:

I agree , and in this case the ‘doctor’  is a doctor of physical therapy ( which is the most common path taken by physical therapists now and should not be confused with the same length of education required to obtain either an MD OR DO degree , and those drs go on to residency or subspecialties for several additional years to obtain broad certification and specialty boards.), and he is just explaining a mechanism without ever actually examining or talking to josh. Please,  Don’t get me wrong , i have seen his work on YouTube and he is very knowledgeable about rehab and PT.  He is a great guy and devout BILLS FAN and I enjoy his work on those YouTube shows.  But he has no special insight into things like joshes pain with certain throws, his pain tolerance etc  , and i am sure Dorsey did not offer up  to him that they had to limit their short game offense. It’s a great mechanism explanation, but there is no objective proof that’s what took place. 

 

Just saying , there is no direct evidence to support this opinion as far as i am aware and it’s nothing more than a theory regarding the bills offense.  Who knows if the strained ucl had any particular effect on josh; he mentioned on brandts program he got prp injected immediately and he made the decision he was able to play that following Saturday

 

I'll take this on.  I'm trying to remember what show it was on - but basically the direct evidence we have to support this opinion comes from Josh himself.

 

In an interview (I will keep letting it float through my mind, it MIGHT have been the Kyle Brandt's Basement show prior to the Bengals game?) Josh stated that after the injury, he had to return to a more lateral throwing motion because rotational throwing motion placed too much strain on his elbow and that it was only in the last "couple of weeks" that he'd been able to return to the mechanics he preferred.

 

Now that might not mean very much, except in the context of interviews with Josh and others about the change in Josh's completion % between 2019 and 2020.  Basically, part of the change was proper sequencing of his upper and lower body (hips firing first).  Another part of it was becoming a rotational rather than a lateral or overhand thrower.  There are multiple interviews where Josh has talked about this - a couple with Chris Simms, I think there's one with Fitz, some people who assess throwing motion say he changed.

 

So basically, what Josh is saying is that mid-season, he had to return towards the mechanics of 2019 Josh, then at the end of the season try to work back to 2020.

There's a second line of direct evidence supporting this, if you look up NexGen Stats charts.   Unfortunately at this point they only have back as far as Week 6 and they don't have every week, but if you look at the overall completion percentage charts, there's a green area in the middle of the field between 10 and 20 yds in 2021 that's missing in 2022.  It was also notable that Josh was off- target with some of his short "bunny" throws late this season.  It was notable that this was a problem area for Josh in 2018 and 2019 which he improved in 2020.

 

I don't think the Bills took out the "short game offense", but I do think it was limited after Josh's injury.  As to what Dorsey did, can't tell you; my guess is that initially, Josh wasn't that clear on what impact it would have on him and played as though there was no impact, then as a couple of games went on, he and Dorsey probably had a "come to Jesus" meeting where they discussed detailed data on Josh's completion % to different areas on different plays and Dorsey may have tweeked the offense.

 

Others may disagree, that's fine, but IME good PTs typically are able to pinpoint exactly what motions will hurt or exacerbate different injuries, much more so than MDs.  That's a generalization, and based on my personal experience and that of my friends, I feel certain there are MDs who are better and PTs who are worse.  He would not have insight into Josh's pain tolerance, that's true.

 

Last, but not least, I believe there is far more to it than just Josh's elbow.  There are impacts of the way Josh was reading and processing what he sees in Dorsey's offense that have nothing to do with his UCL.

Edited February 24, 2023 by Beck Water

[TheyCallMeAndy]

39 minutes ago, uticaclub said:

If anyone was happy with their performance they need to step up their game or stick to watching Pop Warner

I felt while they could definitely improve (and clearly are), but I didn’t consider either to be ‘bad.’ Neither did Finna, he just wanted more from those two. 
 

IMO both made strides in 2022

 

*Edit*
 

After looking at their splits, Epenesa actually played better after Von went down. 
 

Groots production significantly dipped after the ankle injury. 

Edited February 24, 2023 by TheyCallMeAndy

[Logic]

12 hours ago, Big Blitz said:

 

Allen hasn’t come close to playing with the talent levels those guys have had.  I’m not as down on Dorsey as most.  I’m actually pretty optimistic with him. 
 

The GM responsible for the talent?  Not so much.  

Funnily enough, I feel the exact opposite.

Diggs
Knox
Davis
McKenzie
Cook
Hines
Shakir

That should be enough weaponry to produce. 

Who did Mahomes and his league leading offense have this year? Travis Kelce and a bunch of guys. You're telling me that Juju/MVS/Watson/Moore/Hardman is greatly superior to what the Bills have at WR? That McKinnon and Pacheco are greatly superior to Cook and Hines?

I'll give you the offensive line. That I agree with. Mahomes has an elite line, Allen does not. But weaponry? I just don't agree that the Bills didn't have enough of it this year. 

Instead, I believe that Dorsey did not utilize the personnel he DID have effectively enough. Cook and Hines should both have been used heavily in the passing game. They're both mismatches against linebackers. Cook, Hines, and McKenzie should all have had their speed and quickness used to stretch the defense horizontally, even if only as pre-snap eye candy to give defenders a moment of pause. Knox is an athletic freak and should have been featured much more in the passing game. Davis should have been used in the slot more frequently, as he was the past two years, since he's proven more consistently that he can beat safeties and undersized slot guys than outside corners.

In short, while the Bills' weaponry can definitely stand to improve (as can the protection), I believe that Dorsey's lack of creativity is what held the Bills offense back at times in 2022. He needs to get better moving forward. I believe he can, and I hope he will.

Edited February 24, 2023 by Logic

[NewEra]

2 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

Hill was on Miami's roster in 2022.

 

Other than the O-line, KC had one receiver with over 80 catches (Kelce).  M V-S and Juju were other team's throwaways who combined for 5 TDs. 

 

The talent divide wasn't as wide as your are exaggerating...so, it can be done "at some point" without all elite talent.

Did you watch the KC OLine play against the Philly D that had 70 sacks this year?  LT, LG, C and RG are all better than every player not named Diggs.  We have one of the worst OLs in the league they have one of the best.  Then add Kelce -  then add Andy Reid.  Mahomes was working with a LOT more than allen.  That is a fact.  
 

“Elite playmakers”? Not so much.  “Elite supporting cast”? absofrickinlutely.  There’s a wide talent divide when you take away- von, Hyde, daquan Jones, Hamlin, crowder and a close to useless Poyer.  Injuries are part of the game, but some teams can’t overcome them.  How many all pros were the chiefs missing?  
 

McD- Dorsey- Frazier Vs Reid- Bienemy- Spags?  Our coaches were totally outclassed by Taylor and Anarumo

[Nextmanup]

This may have been an issue for a week or 2, but I refuse to believe it was some sort of big problem for half the damned season.  Not with Josh running off to play in a golf tournament right after the season ended.

 

If his injury had been serious, he would have had surgery and been out long term.

 

He didn't and wasn't, so I am reluctant to use his elbow as an excuse.

 

 

Edited February 24, 2023 by Nextmanup