Is the Bills need for 8 D-linemen each game costing the team in other areas?

[Jerry Jabber]

A big staple of the McDermott/Frazier defense is rotating the front four of the defense throughout the game. IMO, this philosophy has hurt the team, especially on offense given the amount of assets the Bills used just on the front four alone, let alone the defense as a whole. 
 

Since McDermott became the HC, the Bills had 7 first round picks, by which 5 were used on defense. 2 first round picks were used on the D-line [Oliver, Rousseau] and 2 second round picks [Basham, Epeneza]. Not to mention a huge FA signing in Von Miller. Basham and Epeneza have underperformed to date and weren’t worth the second round picks. In order for Oliver to be effective, he needs a good DT next to him and someone else to take on double teams, otherwise, he’s been ineffective (especially once Miller was lost for the season). Rousseau is good, but has been inconsistent.
 

Besides Diggs, the Bills have been using lower round picks for WR’s, but use 2nd and 3rd round picks on RB’s, which makes no sense!

 

(Didn’t mention Zay Jones as I’m not quite sure if he was a McDermott pick or if it was a Whaley pick, since that was Whaley’s last draft with the Bills). 
 

IMO, all these assets used on having eight D-linemen for each game is huge a waste. It’s an outdated approach and because of it, the Bills have not invested properly on offense as they need a couple good O-linemen along with at least two more WR’s to compliment Diggs. The approach of getting cheap FA contracts and low round picks on offense is not getting the job done.

Edited January 29, 2023 by Jerry Jabber

[John from Riverside]

Don’t pretty much NFL teams carry the same amount of lineman

[Buddo]

I'm not sure that the 8 d-linemen strategy is that wrong tbh. The idea being to keep them fresh enough to keep getting after it.

 

It also might be partly necessary, due to the ability, at times, for the Offense to score very quickly.

 

The problem with it, is more that some of the personnel, simply aren't performing well enough.

 

Epenesa and Basham, aren't living up to their draft positions atm, and while they aren't out of time yet, that clock is ticking very loudly.

 

The only guys who are performing well enough, from what I can see, are Miller, Rousseau, Jones, Oliver, and Lawson.

 

Note I said 'well enough' and not 'well'.

 

The first 4 are going to be our erstwhile starters, or best group, but after that, the rest aren't up to snuff.

 

Ideally you would want those top 4 names, on the field at all times, but that isn't going to happen.

 

Becase the other 3 main guys, Settle, Epeneas and Basham, aren't doing well enough, it messes with being able to put your main 4 out there, as much as you would like, as you have to mix and match some.

[djp14150]

27 minutes ago, Jerry Jabber said:

A big staple of the McDermott/Frazier defense is rotating the front four of the defense throughout the game. IMO, this philosophy has hurt the team, especially on offense given the amount of assets the Bills used just on the front four alone, let alone the defense as a whole. 
 

Since McDermott became the HC, the Bills had 7 first round picks, by which 5 were used on defense. 2 first round picks were used on the D-line [Oliver, Rousseau] and 2 second round picks [Basham, Epeneza]. Not to mention a huge FA signing in Von Miller. Basham and Epeneza have underperformed to date and weren’t worth the second round picks. In order for Oliver to be effective, he needs a good DT next to him and someone else to take on double teams, otherwise, he’s been ineffective (especially once Miller was lost for the season). Rousseau is good, but has been inconsistent.
 

Besides Diggs, the Bills have been using lower round picks for WR’s, but use 2nd and 3rd round picks on RB’s, which makes no sense!

 

(Didn’t mention Zay Jones as I’m not quite sure if he was a McDermott pick or if it was a Whaley pick, since that was Whaley’s last draft with the Bills). 
 

IMO, all these assets used on having eight D-linemen for each game is huge a waste. It’s an outdated approach and because of it, the Bills have not invested properly on offense as they need a couple good O-linemen along with at least two more WR’s to compliment Diggs. The approach of getting cheap FA contracts and low round picks on offense is not getting the job done.

 

youare mixing things around here.

 

buffalo is a 4-3 team. In a design of a roster you have 8 DL on the roster   You want fresh guys out there so you rotate players. If you are not gassing your players are going to be gassed by the 4th. The DL runs much more than thr OL because they are chasing players on offense

 

as for drafting—- it’s much much harder to get a (1) good pass rushing DE , (2) a very good OT, (3) a QB , (4) am impact LB, and (5) a top CB, after the 1st round.   You can find some players sfter the 1st but they have flaws/ weaknesses that you might be able to work on.

 

you can get decent WRs, TEs, RBs in the 3rd-6th rounds.  Look over draft history of receivers/ RBs being drafted between 1st vs those 3rd or later.

 

 

 

 

[Airseven]

I don’t think so. Every team has at least eight DL. The difference with the Bills is that the four “backups” are true rotational players who get plenty of snaps.

 

I’d be curious to see what each team pays their DL with cap allotments.

 

 

[harmonkillebrew]

Carry that many linemen, no. But drafting 2nd rounders and spending valuable cap/FA money on it, yes.

 

I also consistently noticed drop offs in the D with certain guys on the field. I think they need to limit the rotations and get the top 4 linemen on the field as much as possible. They're professional athletes, they can play all game and still be effective.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

8 minutes ago, djp14150 said:

 

youare mixing things around here.

 

buffalo is a 4-3 team. In a design of a roster you have 8 DL on the roster   You want fresh guys out there so you rotate players. If you are not gassing your players are going to be gassed by the 4th. The DL runs much more than thr OL because they are chasing players on offense

 

as for drafting—- it’s much much harder to get a (1) good pass rushing DE , (2) a very good OT, (3) a QB , (4) am impact LB, and (5) a top CB, after the 1st round.   You can find some players sfter the 1st but they have flaws/ weaknesses that you might be able to work on.

 

you can get decent WRs, TEs, RBs in the 3rd-6th rounds.  Look over draft history of receivers/ RBs being drafted between 1st vs those 3rd or later.

 

 

 

 

"Decent."

 

I'm not interested in decent.

[eSJayDee]

I don't think it's so much a game day issue, but rather a team composition issue.  Players cost both cap space & "draft capital" (One has the potential to have players on their rookie contract substantially outperform their market value - see 2021 J Allen vs 2023).  And it doesn't appear that we get a discount on salary/cap cost for these part time player.  Before investing HEAVILY in draft picks (Epenesa, Bashem, Groot) we had the highest cap allocation for D Line.  And not corresponding production.  Now, although our cap costs are more reasonable (Miller takes a big jump this yr), we also have the cost of 3 premium draft picks.

Our defense has 7 players that barring injury, play almost 100%.  The offense has 6 & a few others that play 80%.  I'm all for having 6 capable D-linemen rotating in, (in large part cuz injuries are inevitable & playing IMO contributes to improved play), but 8 is excessive.

[CoudyBills]

 Not at all.  The Bills using those 8 defensive linemen resulted in lots of sacks, tons of pressures, and a great run defense.  Oh wait, it was ***** instead?  Yep, it harmed the team in other areas.  Well maybe not, it's not like they had anybody else who could play.

[Nextmanup]

1 hour ago, harmonkillebrew said:

They're professional athletes, they can play all game and still be effective.

I agree!

[Eastport bills]

The biggest problem the 8 man front had was that after Miller went down they got precious few sacks and QB pressures. The idea is to get a few guys who can rush the passer. Rousseau was invisible in the playoffs. Epenesa and Lawson are not the answer. If these personnel misses continue, the focus will more pronounced on a young unproven secondary. Edmunds and Milano along with Hyde will mask the weaknesses against some teams but Beane and Sean have to be better at plugging in effective players so we can start playing with an edge.

[Chaos]

2 hours ago, Buddo said:

I'm not sure that the 8 d-linemen strategy is that wrong tbh. The idea being to keep them fresh enough to keep getting after it.

 

It also might be partly necessary, due to the ability, at times, for the Offense to score very quickly.

 

The problem with it, is more that some of the personnel, simply aren't performing well enough.

 

Epenesa and Basham, aren't living up to their draft positions atm, and while they aren't out of time yet, that clock is ticking very loudly.

 

The only guys who are performing well enough, from what I can see, are Miller, Rousseau, Jones, Oliver, and Lawson.

 

Note I said 'well enough' and not 'well'.

 

The first 4 are going to be our erstwhile starters, or best group, but after that, the rest aren't up to snuff.

 

Ideally you would want those top 4 names, on the field at all times, but that isn't going to happen.

 

Becase the other 3 main guys, Settle, Epeneas and Basham, aren't doing well enough, it messes with being able to put your main 4 out there, as much as you would like, as you have to mix and match some.

When are we "getting after it" in the first place? Doesn't that have to happen before you keep getting after it. 

[All_Pro_Bills]

The issue isn't roster spots and the rotation strategy.  It's the players comprising the rotation acquired at a cost of high draft picks and cap space that have under-performed. 

[Thrivefourfive]

In the immediate, it’s costing them

because it doesn’t work!

 

Longer term, obviously costing them because it isn’t necessary, and they have too many other weaknesses to address. 

[Don Otreply]

Yes, yes it is, 

 

as well the penchant for guys that in effect only play STs, believe me, there are lots of guys that would be happy as hell to collect a NFL paycheck, actually play a useful position and play STs to get that paycheck. 

 

 

[benderbender]

It would all be worth it if they could make a dent against backup OL. When they can't, it's spending $10 more on the rust protection at the carwash. 

[Brianmoorman4jesus]

A senseless rotation that no other team finds necessary. We don’t even get any pressure using it. Put the good players on the field as much as possible. I don’t need fresh legs on backups. I need my good guys on the field

[pennstate10]

1 hour ago, Brianmoorman4jesus said:

A senseless rotation that no other team finds necessary. We don’t even get any pressure using it. Put the good players on the field as much as possible. I don’t need fresh legs on backups. I need my good guys on the field

Really?

 

Almost all NFL teams, as well as top college teams, rotate 6-9 DL.  Its been that way since the 1990s, when the Cowboys started sending "waves" of DL.

Here's one reference, but you can find dozens in 5 minutes.

https://www.nbcsports.com/philadelphia/eagles/eagles-defensive-line-rotation-jonathan-gannon

 

There may be a few exceptions.  Players like Aaron Donald may play 90% of snaps.

 

How about a recent example.  Bills Bengals game.  Bengals had 8 DL playing 22-79% of snaps.

 

https://www.cincyjungle.com/2023/1/23/23567536/bengals-bills-snap-counts-nfl-divisional-round-mike-hilton-trey-hendrickson

 

 

[Brianmoorman4jesus]

9 minutes ago, pennstate10 said:

Really?

 

Almost all NFL teams, as well as top college teams, rotate 6-9 DL.  Its been that way since the 1990s, when the Cowboys started sending "waves" of DL.

Here's one reference, but you can find dozens in 5 minutes.

https://www.nbcsports.com/philadelphia/eagles/eagles-defensive-line-rotation-jonathan-gannon

 

There may be a few exceptions.  Players like Aaron Donald may play 90% of snaps.

 

How about a recent example.  Bills Bengals game.  Bengals had 8 DL playing 22-79% of snaps.

 

https://www.cincyjungle.com/2023/1/23/23567536/bengals-bills-snap-counts-nfl-divisional-round-mike-hilton-trey-hendrickson

 

 

We rotate more than anyone. Our good Dlinemen barely even play half the game. It’s too much. You want to give a guy I breath here and there, fine. But not entire drives of full line rotation constantly. It’s incredible we won’t put a 3rd LB in obvious run situations and will just let teams run it down our throat in nickel no matter what but we will rotate the Dline no matter what 

[pennstate10]

1 hour ago, Brianmoorman4jesus said:

We rotate more than anyone. Our good Dlinemen barely even play half the game. It’s too much. You want to give a guy I breath here and there, fine. But not entire drives of full line rotation constantly. It’s incredible we won’t put a 3rd LB in obvious run situations and will just let teams run it down our throat in nickel no matter what but we will rotate the Dline no matter 

“A senseless rotation that no other team finds necessary”

 

Huh. Instead of simply admitting that your statement was wrong, saying you’d take a lap, you move the goalposts. 
 

Bills play 8 DL most games. So do many, if not most NFL teams. As a simple example, look at Bills opponent in a randomly selected game. Their last one. Bengals played 8 DL for 22-79% snaps each. 
 

https://www.cincyjungle.com/2023/1/23/23567536/bengals-bills-snap-counts-nfl-divisional-round-mike-hilton-trey-hendrickson