2022 MVP: Mahomes wins. Allen gets 1 vote? (42 TDs, 19 TOs, 315 YPG & 63.3%% Comp %--EOY talk 54+)

[Richard Noggin]

21 minutes ago, LABILLBACKER said:

Brian was able to quickly identify Josh's early flaws and reel him back in.  You definitely have to give Dabs credit for molding Josh into the qb who practically pitched 2 perfect games in the playoffs.  Dorsey has been more of an intoxicating OC allowing more hero ball Josh to seep back in. I naively assumed Ken would practice more Daboll-isms but it never materialized.  I think in a year or 2 when the dust settles, we might see a Ben Johnson type taking over.

I'll respond ignorantly without googling Ben Johnson. I can only assume he's a more paternalistic presence, like Dabs was. I did NOT love Daboll's baldly deliberate gameplans that were slow to adjust in-game and rarely leveraged a synced up run and pass action to keep defensive players on their heels, but I'd be a fool to ignore what his presumably hard coaching did for Allen.

 

We watched Dabs chew out a young Josh Allen on more than one occasion. And one of Allen's defining traits has been his coachability, or ability to absorb and improve upon legitimate criticism. Seemed like that kind of humility and accountability was missing at times this season. Replays reveal a QB who overlooked or didn't find quickly enough the short and intermediate solutions to various coverage and pressure outcomes. 

 

There is the Ravens game, which was not a pretty passing day, but really it started in the 2nd half against Green Bay. We started to see mistakes that didn't make sense. We saw demonstrable regression. We saw our elite playmaker unwilling to play small-ball. Suddenly the red zone (which had been an historically-efficacious area for Allen) was a mine field. Defenses were attacking Josh Allen and he wasn't solving those riddles with humility. 

[UKBillFan]

7 hours ago, Richard Noggin said:

 

I'll go ahead and disagree here. Daboll is absolutely a great coach. He has become a great leader of coaches and players alike with his interpersonal authenticity and professional diligence. Dudes love Dabs. That's important, especially early on. 

 

However, Daboll has ONLY had ANY offensive success calling plays with Josh Allen as his QB. He didn't call plays this season with the New Jersey Football Giants. So I see Daboll as someone who is meant for the Head Coaching job. He's a hell of a teacher, a uniter, an organizer, but he had some serious trouble marrying the run and the pass games while in Buffalo, despite the offensive success we enjoyed. So defensive players had some advantages, leaning into the pass rush, feasting on some meh players in predictable pass and run situations. 

 

What Daboll DID do VERY effectively was get stompin' mad at Allen when he refused to take what the defense was giving him. THAT was the missing ingredient this year, even as the offense starting stringing together a run game. Allen was being an impatient, sophomoric, myopic stallion too often in 2022. His greatest successes had come from ELITE patience, precision, and zen, and then of course that KC playoff explosion that effed up all our expectations...

Interestingly, I read that, on all statistics, Dorsey’s offense in the regular season was better than Daboll’s in 2021. I think the play off performance, specifically from Josh, overlooks that the Bills were very hit and miss, at best, in the regular season with some very poor performances from Josh himself. Looking back with a balanced, rather than anti-Dorsey, eye was Josh that much different post bye to his performances in the regular season 2021? The run from the Patriots play off game through to the first half of the Packers shows what Josh can do at his best. But his floor is too low for a player of his natural calibre, and that was the case at the back end of Daboll’s time here too.

[finn]

6 hours ago, Richard Noggin said:

We watched Dabs chew out a young Josh Allen on more than one occasion. And one of Allen's defining traits has been his coachability, or ability to absorb and improve upon legitimate criticism. Seemed like that kind of humility and accountability was missing at times this season. Replays reveal a QB who overlooked or didn't find quickly enough the short and intermediate solutions to various coverage and pressure outcomes. 

 

There is the Ravens game, which was not a pretty passing day, but really it started in the 2nd half against Green Bay. We started to see mistakes that didn't make sense. We saw demonstrable regression. We saw our elite playmaker unwilling to play small-ball. Suddenly the red zone (which had been an historically-efficacious area for Allen) was a mine field. Defenses were attacking Josh Allen and he wasn't solving those riddles with humility. 

In retrospect, it could be that Allen needed one more season with Daboll or a similarly strong-minded coach. When he got impatient and started forcing passes downfield, he didn't have anyone to get in his grill, or so it appears. Beane must have frustrated as hell, after landing both Cook and Hines to improve the short game only to see Allen (and possibly Dorsey) essentially ignore it.

 

What a waste. Up to about mid-season, Allen was playing some of the best football the league had ever seen.

[Billz4ever]

10 hours ago, Meatloaf63 said:

You’ve proven you look at stats only which is the most foolish way to judge athletes. When you can’t understand that playing an inferior schedule produces unequal results then you your opinion means absolutely nothing. What happened this year when they went head to head when the Bills were relatively healthy? How many games did Mahomes play with a sprained UCL. How many games did Mahomes play without a 30 million dollar piece of his defense? Who was Mahomes coordinator vs Allen’s? You conveniently ignore all of that. Mahomes is a hell of a Qb, but so is Allen, but they certainly don’t play in the same environment, and anyone who doesn’t understand that is clueless.

Your entire argument is based on excuses rather than results on the field. A QB doesn't win MVP because there was someone out on their defense.  They don't win MVP for playing a different schedule.  They don't win MVP based on one game.  Get real. Drop the excuses, drop the homerism.

 

You can't look at anything objectively because you can't set aside your homerism for two seconds.

 

The right person won MVP this year and any objective person can admit that.  

10 hours ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

Translation:

 

Huh???? Are we having the same conversation??? The guy I responded to said Mahomes had fewer weapons this year. I responded...

They have Kelce.  That's it.  If you're claiming any of the others are, post their stats and we'll explore.

[Billz4ever]

11 hours ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

Ummm... did Mahomes really have fewer weapons than last season?

 

I don't think last season the Chiefs had JuJu, MVS, Kadarius Toney, Isaiah Pacheco, or Skyy Moore.

 

I get that Hill was an Elite HOF weapon, but KC found a way to add a handful of more than competent players to replace him.

 

Ever consider the benefit of 3 or 4 more good players over a single Elite player?

 

And on a side note, maybe it should be an indictment on Mahomes that he could only win 1 Super Bowl as clearly the best QB in the NFL with a 1st ballot HOFer at both TE and WR1. 

So if that's an indictment of Mahomes who has won a ring and is playing in his third SB, what does that say about Allen, who has lost to Mahomes multiple times in the playoffs and never been to a SB?

 

Your homerism is showing.

[CincyBillsFan]

7 hours ago, Richard Noggin said:

I'll respond ignorantly without googling Ben Johnson. I can only assume he's a more paternalistic presence, like Dabs was. I did NOT love Daboll's baldly deliberate gameplans that were slow to adjust in-game and rarely leveraged a synced up run and pass action to keep defensive players on their heels, but I'd be a fool to ignore what his presumably hard coaching did for Allen.

 

We watched Dabs chew out a young Josh Allen on more than one occasion. And one of Allen's defining traits has been his coachability, or ability to absorb and improve upon legitimate criticism. Seemed like that kind of humility and accountability was missing at times this season. Replays reveal a QB who overlooked or didn't find quickly enough the short and intermediate solutions to various coverage and pressure outcomes. 

 

There is the Ravens game, which was not a pretty passing day, but really it started in the 2nd half against Green Bay. We started to see mistakes that didn't make sense. We saw demonstrable regression. We saw our elite playmaker unwilling to play small-ball. Suddenly the red zone (which had been an historically-efficacious area for Allen) was a mine field. Defenses were attacking Josh Allen and he wasn't solving those riddles with humility. 

The Ravens game?  In addition to it being a bad weather day on the 1st series a decent Allen pass bounces off the hands of Knox for an INT and in the 3rd series Motor loses a fumble.   Starting with the late 2nd quarter TD drive Allen was masterful in that game leading the Bills back from a 20 - 3 deficit.

 

Maybe what defenses figured out was that our O line couldn't pass protect.  Maybe the loss of Crowder & Kummrow hurt those "short and intermediate" solutions.  Maybe the very real limitations of Davis & McKenzie limited our short passing game.  Maybe defensive let downs at critical points in a game forced Allen to try to hit the big rather then small play.  And Allen was more then willing to "play small ball" when the opportunity's arose.

 

Calling Allen out for not showing "humility" and "accountability" is flat out wrong.  If anything I saw a guy who tried to hard to deliver the expectations of a Super Bowl contending team that in some critical areas didn't have Super Bowl quality talent.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Meatloaf63]

4 minutes ago, Billz4ever said:

So if that's an indictment of Mahomes who has won a ring and is playing in his third SB, what does that say about Allen, who has lost to Mahomes multiple times in the playoffs and never been to a SB?

 

Your homerism is showing.

You can stick the homerism up where the sun doesn’t shine. Only 5 teams played an easier schedule than the Chiefs this year. What does that say that Mahomes couldn’t separate himself vs qb’s who had less talented lines harder schedules, weaker receiving corps, weaker coaching? You know at least Zerovolts admits he’s a chiefs fan, what’s your excuse? You call everything an excuse because it shows your analysis is pure garbage. What does this show about Allen?, his surrounding cast is nowhere as good as Mahomes, now prove that wrong? You can’t and you won’t end of story.

[Billz4ever]

1 minute ago, Meatloaf63 said:

You can stick the homerism up where the sun doesn’t shine. Only 5 teams played an easier schedule than the Chiefs this year. What does that say that Mahomes couldn’t separate himself vs qb’s who had less talented lines harder schedules, weaker receiving corps, weaker coaching? You know at least Zerovolts admits he’s a chiefs fan, what’s your excuse? You call everything an excuse because it shows your analysis is pure garbage. What does this show about Allen?, his surrounding cast is nowhere as good as Mahomes, now prove that wrong? You can’t and you won’t end of story.

Crying over schedule is no different than crying about refs.  Give me a break.  It's pathetic and you don't even realize how pathetic it sounds.  

 

The fact Mahomes is playing in the SB proves the right person won.

 

I don't have to prove anything.  

 

It's hilarious watching Bills fans literally admit the Chiefs are better than the Bills in an attempt to make excuses for Allen and downplay how good Mahomes is.

[Brand J]

10 minutes ago, Billz4ever said:

It's hilarious watching Bills fans literally admit the Chiefs are better than the Bills in an attempt to make excuses for Allen and downplay how good Mahomes is.

Both the Bills and Chiefs rosters would be middling teams without their superstar QBs. But what’s funny to me is that I hear Allen would be going to his 3rd SB (at least) and Mahomes wouldn’t have sniffed one if you simply switched the QBs. There’s a blind, almost irrational loyalty to Allen. I love my QB, but at the same time can admit when another guy is simply better. Not all Bills fans have the capacity to grasp this.

[Billz4ever]

8 minutes ago, JayBaller10 said:

Both the Bills and Chiefs rosters would be middling teams without their superstar QBs. But what’s funny to me is that I hear Allen would be going to his 3rd SB (at least) and Mahomes wouldn’t have sniffed one if you simply switched the QBs. There’s a blind, almost irrational loyalty to Allen. I love my QB, but at the same time can admit when another guy is simply better. Not all Bills fans have the capacity to grasp this.

I don't get it.  I really don't.  So many people get butthurt over stuff like this and they will literally take it personal.

 

You know what?  If you asked Josh who should've won MVP, I'm sure he says, "the guy that did".  I wish more of our own fans had the humility and the humbleness of the QB they so irrationally defend.

Edited February 11, 2023 by Billz4ever

[Billl]

9 hours ago, transplantbillsfan said:

And there were 2 TDs on 4th downs, not 3.

There were 2 TDs on 4th down and another TD that was scored after a drive was extended via a 4th down conversion.

[Dr.Sack]

12 hours ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

Neither were the Colts

 

Ummm... you're criticizing Josh for the 2 UCL injuries???? Are you being funny here?

Get the ball out faster. Process faster. Checkdown or grounding at receivers feet better than UCL arm hit.

[Billl]

54 minutes ago, Meatloaf63 said:

You can stick the homerism up where the sun doesn’t shine. Only 5 teams played an easier schedule than the Chiefs this year. What does that say that Mahomes couldn’t separate himself vs qb’s who had less talented lines harder schedules, weaker receiving corps, weaker coaching? You know at least Zerovolts admits he’s a chiefs fan, what’s your excuse? You call everything an excuse because it shows your analysis is pure garbage. What does this show about Allen?, his surrounding cast is nowhere as good as Mahomes, now prove that wrong? You can’t and you won’t end of story.

https://www.sharpfootballanalysis.com/analysis/2022-nfl-strength-of-schedule/
https://www.espn.com/nfl/fpi/_/sort/fpi.avgsosrank/dir/asc

[Jay_Fixit]

22 hours ago, JayBaller10 said:

It’s what people say to lessen the sting. I’m sure there are a bunch of Portland Trailblazer fans who say “Michael Jordan wouldn’t have been ‘Michael Jordan’ if he was drafted by us and not the Bulls.”

Oh I know. It’s actually hilarious.

 

This really awesome transcendent player the league has never seen before is only this good cause he was drafted by that team.

 

Or maybe just wake up.

[John from Riverside]

It wasn’t going to be Josh Allen towards the end of the year so it doesn’t matter to me who actually got it
 

But as far as who the most valuable player was for their team, that was obviously Josh Allen

 

Kansas City put their back up in and they move the ball like they hadn’t even switched out quarterbacks

[Jay_Fixit]

13 hours ago, TheyCallMeAndy said:

He would’ve come here with a rookie defensive HC, Rick Dennison at OC, laughable offensive weapons, and very likely a day one starter.

 

I think it’s very, very, very plausible he doesn’t develop into the level of player he is today considering the offense didn’t start to explode until Dabs was in year 2 and we finally added some offensive weapons. That would be year 3 for Mahommes. 
 

I’m sorry dude. This is all bull####. You’re just saying things to say them.

[Billz4ever]

37 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

It wasn’t going to be Josh Allen towards the end of the year so it doesn’t matter to me who actually got it
 

But as far as who the most valuable player was for their team, that was obviously Josh Allen

 

Kansas City put their back up in and they move the ball like they hadn’t even switched out quarterbacks

That suggests the Chiefs would still be playing in the SB if Chad Henne were their QB this season.  Nobody seriously believes that.  

[Meatloaf63]

19 hours ago, Billl said:

https://www.sharpfootballanalysis.com/analysis/2022-nfl-strength-of-schedule/
https://www.espn.com/nfl/fpi/_/sort/fpi.avgsosrank/dir/asc

That’s one view, the one I looked at had KC at 27, Philly at 29, and San Fran at 32 and the easiest schedule. Buffalo was top 10 hardest.

Edited February 12, 2023 by Meatloaf63

[transplantbillsfan]

12 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Quite. But their model was star driven. It was 5 or 6 star players and a lot of jags.

 

But that was the opposite of the Patriots' model. Still trying to see the connection.

[transplantbillsfan]

3 hours ago, Billz4ever said:

So if that's an indictment of Mahomes who has won a ring and is playing in his third SB, what does that say about Allen, who has lost to Mahomes multiple times in the playoffs and never been to a SB?

 

Your homerism is showing.

 

First of all, I figured the emoticon would make you realize that what I was saying was tongue in cheek. Really wasn't being totally serious there... not totally.

 

But Allen’s never had 2 sure-fire 1st ballot HOF weapons to throw to along with a well-established mad-scientist offensive play caller and QB guru. And if you want to argue that Daboll was just that at the end of his tenure in WNY, we could point to Allen's historic playoff games last year only to be botched by coaching at the end of the game.

[GunnerBill]

12 minutes ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

But that was the opposite of the Patriots' model. Still trying to see the connection.

 

I wasn't making a connection between New England and Indy. I was making a connection between Buffalo and Pittsbugh and saying in terms of build, in terms of organisational principles and even to an extent in terms of Quarterback - Ben and Josh have in common the "no, no, no don't do tha...... Touchdown!!" element of hero ball to them.

 

The Steelers lost to the Pats a couple of times in the playoffs... but they were the second most successful AFC team of that era and won two rings. I kinda think that might be the Bills lot. 

 

 

Edited February 11, 2023 by GunnerBill

[Billz4ever]

6 minutes ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

First of all, I figured the emoticon would make you realize that what I was saying was tongue in cheek. Really wasn't being totally serious there... not totally.

 

But Allen’s never had 2 sure-fire 1st ballot HOF weapons to throw to along with a well-established mad-scientist offensive play caller and QB guru. And if you want to argue that Daboll was just that at the end of his tenure in WNY, we could point to Allen's historic playoff games last year only to be botched by coaching at the end of the game.

Mahomes is in the SB this year with just Kelce, so that theory is kinda busted.

[transplantbillsfan]

3 hours ago, JayBaller10 said:

Both the Bills and Chiefs rosters would be middling teams without their superstar QBs. But what’s funny to me is that I hear Allen would be going to his 3rd SB (at least) and Mahomes wouldn’t have sniffed one if you simply switched the QBs. There’s a blind, almost irrational loyalty to Allen. I love my QB, but at the same time can admit when another guy is simply better. Not all Bills fans have the capacity to grasp this.

 

You do understand the very different situations these players walked into, right? 

 

The Chiefs won double digit games and went to the playoffs the 2 years before they drafted Mahomes and then again in his rookie year when he sat the whole season and had the benefit of being groomed under Andy Reid and watching a pro like Alex Smith in front of him. And they had Hill and Kelce from the start for Mahomes.

 

No one is saying Mahomes would suck outside of KC, but coaching, system, and surrounding personnel matter and Allen has always been far behind Mahomes with respect to those things.

[transplantbillsfan]

2 hours ago, Dr.Sack said:

Get the ball out faster. Process faster. Checkdown or grounding at receivers feet better than UCL arm hit.

 

Holy crap... you were being serious

[Dr.Sack]

3 minutes ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

Holy crap... you were being serious

Yes is it a surprise the league leader in fumbles 2018-2022 needs to process the field faster and get the ball out? 

[transplantbillsfan]

24 minutes ago, Billz4ever said:

Mahomes is in the SB this year with just Kelce, so that theory is kinda busted.

 

It's not just Kelce, though.

 

Andy Reid is still calling the plays and they have more weapons now than before.

 

They swapped Hill out for 2 young but established veteran WRs, a young 1st round WR they traded for, a 2nd round rookie WR, and McKinnon and Pacheco at RB.

[Billz4ever]

58 minutes ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

No one is saying Mahomes would suck outside of KC, but coaching, system, and surrounding personnel matter and Allen has always been far behind Mahomes with respect to those things.

So what?  Does that mean we have to give Josh a handicap when comparing the success between the two?  The only legitimate comparison you can use is what they do on the field.  Everything else is just excuses.

 

You can literally use that argument when comparing any QBs.  Some have more weapons, a better OL, or better coaching than others do and just like with Josh, it's not a valid argument #1 because you can't swap positions and #2 those things are almost never equal no matter who you're comparing.

Edited February 11, 2023 by Billz4ever

[Billl]

19 minutes ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

You do understand the very different situations these players walked into, right? 

 

The Chiefs won double digit games and went to the playoffs the 2 years before they drafted Mahomes and then again in his rookie year when he sat the whole season and had the benefit of being groomed under Andy Reid and watching a pro like Alex Smith in front of him. And they had Hill and Kelce from the start for Mahomes.

 

No one is saying Mahomes would suck outside of KC, but coaching, system, and surrounding personnel matter and Allen has always been far behind Mahomes with respect to those things.

5 years into Josh’s career, he just threw 3 INTs and had 3 fumbles in 2 playoff games, and you’re still talking about how Mahomes sat most of the 2017 season?  You’re just being ridiculous.  If you want to figure out who the best QB is, find the guy who had 33 interceptions and fumbles in 18 games this season.  It ain’t him.  

 

Josh is a great player who will likely find himself in the HOF some day.  What’s the point of trying to convince people that he’s better than the guy who just got 48x as many MVP votes as he did?  Allen’s supporting cast had $19,000,000 million more dollars in salary, and they put up 10 points in an elimination game.  If you want to debate Josh, compare him to Burrow.  That’s the better discussion.

[Billz4ever]

22 minutes ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

It's not just Kelce, though.

 

Andy Reid is still calling the plays and they have more weapons now than before.

 

They swapped Hill out for 2 young but established veteran WRs, a young 1st round WR they traded for, a 2nd round rookie WR, and McKinnon and Pacheco at RB.

Oh, so we're back to the Brady argument where he's only as good as he is because of the "system".  Heard that for a decade+ from Bills fans now we've resurrected it again to try and label Mahomes the same way.  It's simply a coping mechanism to try and downplay one guy and justify why our guy hasn't been able to accomplish the same.

 

Only took Brady going to another team, throwing for 5300 yards 43 TDs and winning another ring to finally put that nonsense to bed.

 

And let's stop trying to inflate the KC WR corp and Pacheco and turning them into probowlers.

 

Pacheco had 830 yards and a 4.9 ypc.

 

Cook had over 500 yards on half the carries Pacheco had with a 5.7 avg splitting time with motor and who saw very little playing time the first part of the season.

Edited February 11, 2023 by Billz4ever

[Doc]

42 minutes ago, transplantbillsfan said:

You do understand the very different situations these players walked into, right? 

 

The Chiefs won double digit games and went to the playoffs the 2 years before they drafted Mahomes and then again in his rookie year when he sat the whole season and had the benefit of being groomed under Andy Reid and watching a pro like Alex Smith in front of him. And they had Hill and Kelce from the start for Mahomes.

 

No one is saying Mahomes would suck outside of KC, but coaching, system, and surrounding personnel matter and Allen has always been far behind Mahomes with respect to those things.

 

Yup.  Same excellent OC (Reid) and an all-world TE who is open on every play every season and a great WR in Hill until this season.  And has had a better OL in front of him throughout and the past 2 years especially.  I also wish the Bills had Spagnuolo as DC.

[GoBills808]

😂😂Chiefs fans are so sensitive about Allen

[GunnerBill]

56 minutes ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

It's not just Kelce, though.

 

Andy Reid is still calling the plays and they have more weapons now than before.

 

They swapped Hill out for 2 young but established veteran WRs, a young 1st round WR they traded for, a 2nd round rookie WR, and McKinnon and Pacheco at RB.

 

Their pass game weapons are meh this year aside from Kelce. Their oline is a lot better than ours. Their weapons are not. Juju and MVs are just guys.

[Doc]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

Their pass game weapons are meh this year aside from Kelce. Their oline is a lot better than ours. Their weapons are not. Juju and MVs are just guys.

 

Outside of obviously Diggs, can you say the Bills' pass game weapons this year were any better?

[GunnerBill]

52 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

Outside of obviously Diggs, can you say the Bills' pass game weapons this year were any better?

 

No. I just don't see a lot between them, that was my point. They both have 1 elite guy and then some slightly above average to average. Juju, MVS, Knox, Davis.... it isn't some massive talent difference. 

 

On the offensive line I take the point. I think the Chiefs are slightly (though not massively) better at running back. They just get more out of their backs because they actually run block. Weapons? I think it is pretty much a wash.

 

They have Mahomes and Reid. It's mainly just that.

Edited February 11, 2023 by GunnerBill

[Doc]

2 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

No. I just don't see a lot between them, that was my point. They both have 1 elite guy and then some slightly above average to average. Juju, MVS, Knox, Davis.... it isn't some massive talent difference. 

 

On the offensive line I take the point. I think the Chiefs are slightly (though not massively) better at running back. They just get more out of their backs because they actually run block. Weapons? I think it is pretty much a wash.

 

They have Mahomes and Reid. It's mainly just that.

 

Agree with the bolded.  But a (far) better OC and OL are huge differences.

[GoBills808]

8 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

Agree with the bolded.  But a (far) better OC and OL are huge differences.

JJSS is a much better wideout than Davis

 

Like I don't even know how that's up for debate

[Doc]

54 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

JJSS is a much better wideout than Davis

 

Like I don't even know how that's up for debate

 

I can't disagree.  Neither are #1 receivers but JJSS did put up 1,426 yards as a #2 WR and Kelce is the Chefs' #1 receiver.

[transplantbillsfan]

9 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Their pass game weapons are meh this year aside from Kelce. Their oline is a lot better than ours. Their weapons are not. Juju and MVs are just guys.

 

Juju, MVS, Toney, Moore, Kelce, McKinnon, Pacheco>>>> Diggs, Davis, McKenzie, Shakir, Knox, Singletary, Cook

 

Do you honestly disagree with that?

Edited February 12, 2023 by transplantbillsfan

[transplantbillsfan]

8 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

No. I just don't see a lot between them, that was my point. They both have 1 elite guy and then some slightly above average to average. Juju, MVS, Knox, Davis.... it isn't some massive talent difference. 

 

If you were to take the careers of Juju & MVS vs Knox & Davis, this comparison becomes ridiculous.

 

Production wise MVS >>> Knox and Juju >>> Davis in their NFL careers.

 

And it's not very close.

[starrymessenger]

In a team sport, even individual honours are inevitably partly determined by contributions other players are able to make (or not make). So I don't have a problem with PM being MVP. He's absolutely a worthy winner. But in comparison to Allen to me he does benefit from having a better O-line, better skill players schooled in an offensive system that has a purpose to it and, most importantly, unlike Josh, Mahomes has top shelf coaches, Reid and Bieniemy.