We took our best 2 defenders out of the game on last 2 plays. It was 11 vs 5.. here's the strategy that would have worked

[TheFunPolice]

Poyer and Hyde.. our best 2 defenders, were taken out of position to have any effect on the last 2 plays. They basically watched from 40 yards away. 

 

We also took 4 D linemen out of the play by having them do close to nothing. 

 

The game was decided on that 1st and 10 with 13 seconds. You cause issues there and they have half the time on the next play and not much to show for it. Now it's desperation heave time. 

 

Here's what I would do: ball is snapped and all 4 DL run backwards 10-15 yards. Nobody rushes at all. Normally a bad idea, but there are no super deep routes. 

 

What does Mahomes do? Does he run? tick..tick..tick 13, 12, 11, 10...

 

Fine! go ahead. 9, 8, 7 ,6,5 and we tackle you at the 35-40. 

 

Meanwhile, what do the OL do? They can't run downfield or he cannot pass. So they stand there doing nothing, not sure what to do. Probably someone goes go downfield.

 

It totally throws the offense off. That's not supposed to happen. It's also a non-hail mary play so the WR aren't running super deep routes, so there's really no danger of letting Mahomes just stand there for 5 seconds or 6 seconds to find the open man. The more time it takes, the better. 

Edited January 26, 2022 by TheFunPolice

[Ramza86]

At 1st i thought....why do we have 4 pass rushers and two LBs out there on the 1st play....

 

2nd play......why the eff do we STILL have 4 pass rushers and two LBs out there?

 

After the game obviously...i was like...wtf man...we couldnt jam kelce or hill with the ends?

[Mat68]

Ok everyone needs to stop.  Fraizer and Mcdermott were not going to lose the game with 13 secs left.  Hill at all times is a threat to take it to the house.  The last time they were on the fielded he went 65.  There is no amount of cushion Wallace or Jackson could have on Hill and I would be comfortable.

[TheFunPolice]

Just now, Ramza86 said:

At 1st i thought....why do we have 4 pass rushers and two LBs out there on the 1st play....

 

2nd play......why the eff do we STILL have 4 pass rushers and two LBs out there?

 

After the game obviously...i was like...wtf man...we couldnt jam kelce or hill with the ends?

 

Normally my suggestion wouldn't work, because it would give Mahomes all day and the WR would just run down the field. 

 

However, the Chiefs had a strategy and it had to be a quick hitter. So maybe you go 2 DL just to keep things honest and have a line of guys ready 10 yards downfield and another deep. The DL aren't getting there anyway, so you use those chess pieces in a smarter way to clog the middle. 

 

If Mahomes takes off and runs his WR aren't going to be in position to block and nobody would have expected that, because the ball needs to come out quick and it needs to be a throw. 

 

AT LEAST you pressure them to make a decision, instead of it looking like catch in the park. 

[Ramza86]

1 minute ago, TheFunPolice said:

 

Normally my suggestion wouldn't work, because it would give Mahomes all day and the WR would just run down the field. 

 

However, the Chiefs had a strategy and it had to be a quick hitter. So maybe you go 2 DL just to keep things honest and have a line of guys ready 10 yards downfield and another deep. The DL aren't getting there anyway, so you use those chess pieces in a smarter way to clog the middle. 

 

If Mahomes takes off and runs his WR aren't going to be in position to block and nobody would have expected that, because the ball needs to come out quick and it needs to be a throw. 

 

AT LEAST you pressure them to make a decision, instead of it looking like catch in the park. 

I personally thought we should be rushing 2 guys and drop everyone back.

 

I like the jam better now that i think about it lol.

[RyanC883]

23 minutes ago, TheFunPolice said:

Poyer and Hyde.. our best 2 defenders, were taken out of position to have any effect on the last 2 plays. They basically watched from 40 yards away. 

 

We also took 4 D linemen out of the play by having them do close to nothing. 

 

The game was decided on that 1st and 10 with 13 seconds. You cause issues there and they have half the time on the next play and not much to show for it. Now it's desperation heave time. 

 

Here's what I would do: ball is snapped and all 4 DL run backwards 10-15 yards. Nobody rushes at all. Normally a bad idea, but there are no super deep routes. 

 

What does Mahomes do? Does he run? tick..tick..tick 13, 12, 11, 10...

 

Fine! go ahead. 9, 8, 7 ,6,5 and we tackle you at the 35-40. 

 

Meanwhile, what do the OL do? They can't run downfield or he cannot pass. So they stand there doing nothing, not sure what to do. Probably someone goes go downfield.

 

It totally throws the offense off. That's not supposed to happen. It's also a non-hail mary play so the WR aren't running super deep routes, so there's really no danger of letting Mahomes just stand there for 5 seconds or 6 seconds to find the open man. The more time it takes, the better. 

 

I like this, it also allows players like Groot to inhibit passing plays into the middle of the field.  

[TheFunPolice]

1 minute ago, Mat68 said:

Ok everyone needs to stop.  Fraizer and Mcdermott were not going to lose the game with 13 secs left.  Hill at all times is a threat to take it to the house.  The last time they were on the fielded he went 65.  There is no amount of cushion Wallace or Jackson could have on Hill and I would be comfortable.

 

That makes sense, but the Chiefs were never going to throw deep to anyone, because if it went wrong the game is basically over. Now you burned 7-8 seconds and there's 6 seconds left and you're still at your 25. Now it's desperation hail mark from 75 yards away. 

 

You know that's not their plan. Their plan is going to be to get a quick hitter out to the 40-45 so that a hail mary is possible. Whoever catches it is instructed to go down immediately to avoid running out the clock. 

 

That's the big difference between the series before and the 13 second series. IF Tyreek catches it and starts running the game is over unless he scores a TD. As it was, they kicked the FG with 3 seconds left. They almost ran out of time immediately going down. Run around and it's game over. 

[RyanC883]

5 minutes ago, Ramza86 said:

At 1st i thought....why do we have 4 pass rushers and two LBs out there on the 1st play....

 

2nd play......why the eff do we STILL have 4 pass rushers and two LBs out there?

 

After the game obviously...i was like...wtf man...we couldnt jam kelce or hill with the ends?

 

not jamming Kelcie and/or Hill was ridiculous.  That in itself burns a few seconds for them to get into the routes.  

[TheFunPolice]

Just now, RyanC883 said:

 

not jamming Kelcie and/or Hill was ridiculous.  That in itself burns a few seconds for them to get into the routes.  

 

Exactly! They only had 3 seconds for the FG. So find a way to make them take 3 more seconds over the course of 2 plays. A jam costs at least a second. 

[st pete gogolak]

1 minute ago, Mat68 said:

Ok everyone needs to stop.  Fraizer and Mcdermott were not going to lose the game with 13 secs left.  Hill at all times is a threat to take it to the house.  The last time they were on the fielded he went 65.  There is no amount of cushion Wallace or Jackson could have on Hill and I would be comfortable.

Right.  They played to prevent a touchdown.  Everyone is acting like KC had to get to our 32 to get a FG attempt.  They didn't.  Anywhere around our 42 - 43 is going to give Butker, who has a big leg, at least a shot at a FG.  I'm guessing that was what KC was thinking.  Get to somewhere around the BIlls ' 40.  The key to the last 13 seconds was Hill's 64 yard touchdown.  It had us scared ####less that Hill would win the game with a TD.  Which of course is nuts.  The last thing you wanted was the game to go into overtime and be decided by a coin flip.  

[KOKBILLS]

26 minutes ago, TheFunPolice said:

Poyer and Hyde.. our best 2 defenders, were taken out of position to have any effect on the last 2 plays. They basically watched from 40 yards away. 

 

We also took 4 D linemen out of the play by having them do close to nothing. 

 

The game was decided on that 1st and 10 with 13 seconds. You cause issues there and they have half the time on the next play and not much to show for it. Now it's desperation heave time. 

 

Here's what I would do: ball is snapped and all 4 DL run backwards 10-15 yards. Nobody rushes at all. Normally a bad idea, but there are no super deep routes. 

 

What does Mahomes do? Does he run? tick..tick..tick 13, 12, 11, 10...

 

Fine! go ahead. 9, 8, 7 ,6,5 and we tackle you at the 35-40. 

 

Meanwhile, what do the OL do? They can't run downfield or he cannot pass. So they stand there doing nothing, not sure what to do. Probably someone goes go downfield.

 

It totally throws the offense off. That's not supposed to happen. It's also a non-hail mary play so the WR aren't running super deep routes, so there's really no danger of letting Mahomes just stand there for 5 seconds or 6 seconds to find the open man. The more time it takes, the better. 

 

The way I look at those 2 plays in the 13 seconds is that KC needed at least 40 yards...The Bills were playing 10 yds off the line (minimum) on both plays...So...They literally gave the Chiefs 20 of the 40 yards free before they ever put their foot in the ground and turned up field for more...Just stupid...

[Rock-A-Bye Beasley]

6 minutes ago, Mat68 said:

Ok everyone needs to stop.  Fraizer and Mcdermott were not going to lose the game with 13 secs left.  Hill at all times is a threat to take it to the house.  The last time they were on the fielded he went 65.  There is no amount of cushion Wallace or Jackson could have on Hill and I would be comfortable.

This isn’t stopping for a looooong time. Better get used to it. 

[MJS]

We all know what happened and we all know what should have been done. It's just beating a dead horse at this point.

[ngbills]

7 minutes ago, Mat68 said:

Ok everyone needs to stop.  Fraizer and Mcdermott were not going to lose the game with 13 secs left.  Hill at all times is a threat to take it to the house.  The last time they were on the fielded he went 65.  There is no amount of cushion Wallace or Jackson could have on Hill and I would be comfortable.

What is Hill like some 8 foot tall guy that runs a 1.4 40? He could whizz past everyone jump 15 feet in the air catch the ball and only 2 seconds come off the clock? Not likely. You have 11 defenders back I just dont see how he makes a play other than a hail mary type play which is not the strong point for the chiefs short wr's. 

[TheFunPolice]

Fearing Tyreek scoring a TD there is just crazy. 

 

If he starts trying to be a hero after catching the ball the game is over is he is tackled. That's GREAT!

 

If Kelce gets a little greedy after catching the second one the clock runs out. 

 

KC was NEVER going to go for a TD. Both Hill and Kelce got what they could and immediately went down. That's not a team that is trying to get 7. 

 

So the defense made no sense. 

[SCBills]

I'd still believe we could get in Bass FG range with Josh Allen, 13 seconds and 3 timeouts.  

 

Especially when the ball is booted out of the end zone and we get it on the 25 with no time off the clock. 

 

Honestly, my worry was that they'd get close enough to have Butker try a 65ish yard FG and he'd somehow make it.   Never in my wildest imagination did I think we'd just give them 45 yards with no resistance. 

 

[Mat68]

2 minutes ago, ngbills said:

What is Hill like some 8 foot tall guy that runs a 1.4 40? He could whizz past everyone jump 15 feet in the air catch the ball and only 2 seconds come off the clock? Not likely. You have 11 defenders back I just dont see how he makes a play other than a hail mary type play which is not the strong point for the chiefs short wr's. 

Correct.  That is why I wouldnt change the defense imo.  You change that and now Hill becomes a real problem.  A tweak here or there doesnt change the issue at hand.  Not letting Hill behind you and not having anyone who can man up Kelce.  The end of the game White was finally missed imo.  

[TheFunPolice]

But Hill was never going to go deep, that's the part people don't seem to get. 

 

Their plan was to get into FG range in those 13 seconds. Hill's route was to get yards and GET DOWN! 

 

Same with Kelce. They were never going up top, because if they did it's game over with an incomplete. 

[Niagara Dude]

1 hour ago, TheFunPolice said:

Poyer and Hyde.. our best 2 defenders, were taken out of position to have any effect on the last 2 plays. They basically watched from 40 yards away. 

 

We also took 4 D linemen out of the play by having them do close to nothing. 

 

The game was decided on that 1st and 10 with 13 seconds. You cause issues there and they have half the time on the next play and not much to show for it. Now it's desperation heave time. 

 

Here's what I would do: ball is snapped and all 4 DL run backwards 10-15 yards. Nobody rushes at all. Normally a bad idea, but there are no super deep routes. 

 

What does Mahomes do? Does he run? tick..tick..tick 13, 12, 11, 10...

 

Fine! go ahead. 9, 8, 7 ,6,5 and we tackle you at the 35-40. 

 

Meanwhile, what do the OL do? They can't run downfield or he cannot pass. So they stand there doing nothing, not sure what to do. Probably someone goes go downfield.

 

It totally throws the offense off. That's not supposed to happen. It's also a non-hail mary play so the WR aren't running super deep routes, so there's really no danger of letting Mahomes just stand there for 5 seconds or 6 seconds to find the open man. The more time it takes, the better. 

This is why you need a new defensive cordinator,  we need someone smart enough to play chess with the top QB'S in this league and crunch time situations like Sunday.  When have we seen Frazier come up with some complex innovative plan to stop a team or elite QB?

 

I just hope Bills are waiting for all HC positions to be filled before announcing they are moving on from this guy.  This is one way the Bills can improve for next season beyond free agency and draft.  Frazier is not playoff material defensive cordinator,  as I said I guarantee no team hires him as a HC

[Einstein]

1 hour ago, TheFunPolice said:

Here's what I would do: ball is snapped and all 4 DL run backwards 10-15 yards. Nobody rushes at all. Normally a bad idea, but there are no super deep routes. 

 

Dropping 4 defensive lineman is putting them into positions that they are not equipped for.

 

You might as well skip the 4 linemen and go 8 DB, 3 LB.

[Ethan in Cleveland]

2 minutes ago, Niagara Dude said:

This is why you need a new defensive cordinator,  we need someone smart enough to play chess with the top QB'S in this league and crunch time situations like Sunday.  When have we seen Frazier come up with some complex innovative plan to stop a team or elite QB?

 

I just hope Bills are waiting for all HC positions to be filled before announcing they are moving on from this guy.  This is one way the Bills can improve for next season beyond free agency and draft.  Frazier is not playoff material defensive cordinator,  as I said I guarantee no team hires him as a HC

If this was all on Frazier then McDermott is equally culpable.  They called timeouts before both plays.  He had plenty of time to intervene.  The buck stops with McDermott.  He cost us a SB run.  He choked.  He let us all down.  And we are stuck with him in 2022.  

[Niagara Dude]

1 hour ago, TheFunPolice said:

Poyer and Hyde.. our best 2 defenders, were taken out of position to have any effect on the last 2 plays. They basically watched from 40 yards away. 

 

We also took 4 D linemen out of the play by having them do close to nothing. 

 

The game was decided on that 1st and 10 with 13 seconds. You cause issues there and they have half the time on the next play and not much to show for it. Now it's desperation heave time. 

 

Here's what I would do: ball is snapped and all 4 DL run backwards 10-15 yards. Nobody rushes at all. Normally a bad idea, but there are no super deep routes. 

 

What does Mahomes do? Does he run? tick..tick..tick 13, 12, 11, 10...

 

Fine! go ahead. 9, 8, 7 ,6,5 and we tackle you at the 35-40. 

 

Meanwhile, what do the OL do? They can't run downfield or he cannot pass. So they stand there doing nothing, not sure what to do. Probably someone goes go downfield.

 

It totally throws the offense off. That's not supposed to happen. It's also a non-hail mary play so the WR aren't running super deep routes, so there's really no danger of letting Mahomes just stand there for 5 seconds or 6 seconds to find the open man. The more time it takes, the better. 

Bravo... even dropping 3 of the 4 would work.  When you watch the replay,   both passes are with no coverage at player is running a straight line taking the least amount of secs possible. 

[Einstein]

1 hour ago, Ramza86 said:

I personally thought we should be rushing 2 guys and drop everyone back.

 

I like the jam better now that i think about it lol.

 

This is exactly right - In my opinion. I broke down a similar concept in this thread below:

 

 

[BillsFan3434]

Hear me out. We convince Josh to have a kid so he is ready to take over when Josh retires. A good 40 years at having a shot at the SB.

[Niagara Dude]

Just now, Ethan in Portland said:

If this was all on Frazier then McDermott is equally culpable.  They called timeouts before both plays.  He had plenty of time to intervene.  The buck stops with McDermott.  He cost us a SB run.  He choked.  He let us all down.  And we are stuck with him in 2022.  

No argument from me,  I am sure Sean had a lot to do with it.  This is why he started talking about all the wins they have had since he arrived in his presser.

 

You also know they are not firing Sean,  so I would settle with a new more innovative cordinator who like Dabol thinks on playing to win.  Frazier is like more like Sean and coaches and call plays not to lose.

 

I have seen enough,  3 straight years we give up leads and lose playoff games

[All_Pro_Bills]

13 minutes ago, Niagara Dude said:

This is why you need a new defensive cordinator,  we need someone smart enough to play chess with the top QB'S in this league and crunch time situations like Sunday.  When have we seen Frazier come up with some complex innovative plan to stop a team or elite QB?

 

I just hope Bills are waiting for all HC positions to be filled before announcing they are moving on from this guy.  This is one way the Bills can improve for next season beyond free agency and draft.  Frazier is not playoff material defensive cordinator,  as I said I guarantee no team hires him as a HC

I can't put all the blame on Frazier because after seeing it not work on the first play McDermott could have overruled his DC and change up something on the second play.  But all he did was call a time out prior to the snap and line up the defense in the same formation.  I'm resigned to the idea we're probably never going to get a legitimate explanation from anyone exactly what the thought process was with the coaching staff on that 13 second series.  Other than an excuse it was an "execution" issue which implies they either believe the strategy was sound or they just aren't going to admit they got it wrong.  That's what bothers me more than anything.  Not that they got it wrong but they won't say they got it wrong.  Even though everyone knows they got it wrong.  Its accountability.  Coaches and management demand accountability from players.  And they should expect nothing less from themselves.  Just admit the set up was wrong, you got it wrong, you'll fix it, and let's move forward. 

Otherwise, what was the plan?  To let them get into FG range in two quick plays and hope their otherwise dependable FG kicker was going to miss for the 2nd time in the game?

[TheFunPolice]

20 minutes ago, Niagara Dude said:

Bravo... even dropping 3 of the 4 would work.  When you watch the replay,   both passes are with no coverage at player is running a straight line taking the least amount of secs possible. 

 

AND now you're playing 11 D vs 6 O (5 O really).

 

All 5 OL are just standing there confused trying not to run too far downfield and end up drawing a flag. Mahomes had a plan but now he has to decide in a blink if he just runs or starts to tell his WR to go deeper, all while that precious clock is ticking....

 

Point is you put pressure on the offense to figure something out AND not screw up (OL). And you play 11 vs 5. 

 

Instead, we took 6 of our players (4DL and Poyer and Hyde) out of the picture. 

 

Of course this would only work in a scenario like we saw. Normally you'd get eaten up by it, as the QB would just take off. But that's perfect when the clock is a factor and plays need to happen lightning quick. 

22 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

Dropping 4 defensive lineman is putting them into positions that they are not equipped for.

 

You might as well skip the 4 linemen and go 8 DB, 3 LB.

 

True but the element of surprise needs to be there, or KC will have a call for it. 

 

I wouldn't have my big DT in there. 3-4 fastest DL or just line up with 3 DL. 

Edited January 26, 2022 by TheFunPolice

[ngbills]

24 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

Dropping 4 defensive lineman is putting them into positions that they are not equipped for.

 

You might as well skip the 4 linemen and go 8 DB, 3 LB.

Agreed. Do that and you could even get creative and send a CB blitz because you still have numbers without 4 DL. 

 

Instead we did this? Line up deep - rush the front 4 and drop everyone leaving the middle wide open for 25 easy yards. 

 

 

Edited January 26, 2022 by ngbills

[LABILLBACKER]

1 hour ago, Ramza86 said:

At 1st i thought....why do we have 4 pass rushers and two LBs out there on the 1st play....

 

2nd play......why the eff do we STILL have 4 pass rushers and two LBs out there?

 

After the game obviously...i was like...wtf man...we couldnt jam kelce or hill with the ends?

Because in high leverage situations Sean McDermott wets his pants. We saw it in Houston. We saw it last year. Hell we saw Marv do it 4 straight times. It's not all on the players. Coaching matters. An intelligent defensive coach rushed 2 or 3 because he knows Mahomes has to get rid of it Immediately. So the OP is right. Our all pro safeties are playing on the warning track. And our front 4 are basically rendered useless. It's 5 on 5.

[TheFunPolice]

7 minutes ago, ngbills said:

Agreed. Do that and you could even get creative and send a CB blitz because you still have numbers without 4 DL. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

That pre-snap photo says it all. Chiefs were guaranteed the 40. But if our DL just backpedaled 5-10 yards  at the snap there's people all over the place in that currently empty space. 

 

Chiefs would have just discussed this in detail: quick hitter, get some yards, go down. Don't run and burn all the clock when you catch it!

 

Suddenly Mahomes takes the snap and sees the middle clogged and there's no easy throw. He probably tries to zing it in there but maybe someone gets in the way of the route or knocks the ball down. It would be a "WTF?" moment for him and you never know how he reacts. 

 

Maybe an OL takes off downfield after the DL or just loses his sense of the line of scrimmage in the confusion and the heat of the moment, making a pass impossible. Illegal man downfield, 5 yard penalty, plus burned time.

 

 

Edited January 26, 2022 by TheFunPolice

[ngbills]

3 minutes ago, TheFunPolice said:

 

That pre-snap photo says it all. Chiefs were guaranteed the 40. But if our DL just backpedaled 5-10 yards  at the snap there's people all over the place in that currently empty space. 

Whats worse is we called a TO right before this to have extra time to think about it. And this is what they did. 

[TheFunPolice]

Just now, ngbills said:

Whats worse is we called a TO right before this to have extra time to think about it. And this is what they did. 

 

Yup!

 

I mean zero resistance at all. Poyer or Hyde could have manned up on Kelce and at least made it a contested play. 

 

I think they panicked after the kickoff didn't go as planned. They had this D drawn up (and it WOULD have been perfect with 7-8 seconds left) and just stuck with it anyway.

 

 

 

 

[Einstein]

1 hour ago, TheFunPolice said:

True but the element of surprise needs to be there, or KC will have a call for it. 

 

I wouldn't have my big DT in there. 3-4 fastest DL or just line up with 3 DL. 

 

Kelce and the WR's are faster than every D-Linemen we have. Dropping them back would accomplish very little and would put them into posiitons that they are not equipped for.

 

There are 13 seconds left. There is no element of surprise here. Mahomes needs to get rid of the ball as soon as possible. 

[ngbills]

13 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

Kelce and the WR's are faster than every D-Linemen we have. Dropping them back would accomplish very little and would put them into posiitons that they are not equipped for.

 

There are 13 seconds left. There is no element of surprise here. Mahomes needs to get rid of the ball as soon as possible. 

Disagree. They still take up space. They immediately drop 5 yards and that takes away the quick pass. Dont think anyone is saying have them cover a guy man on man. Just take up a space. Rushing served no purpose. 

[Einstein]

3 hours ago, ngbills said:

Disagree. They still take up space. They immediately drop 5 yards and that takes away the quick pass. Dont think anyone is saying have them cover a guy man on man. Just take up a space. Rushing served no purpose. 

 

You're missing the point.

You can "take up space" with players that are more equipped to be in pass coverage. Like more DB's, or LB's. 

 

It makes no sense to drop 4 DL back when you could simply put 8 DB and 3 LB's on the field with 0 DL.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

8 hours ago, TheFunPolice said:

Poyer and Hyde.. our best 2 defenders, were taken out of position to have any effect on the last 2 plays. They basically watched from 40 yards away. 

 

We also took 4 D linemen out of the play by having them do close to nothing. 

 

The game was decided on that 1st and 10 with 13 seconds. You cause issues there and they have half the time on the next play and not much to show for it. Now it's desperation heave time. 

 

Here's what I would do: ball is snapped and all 4 DL run backwards 10-15 yards. Nobody rushes at all. Normally a bad idea, but there are no super deep routes. 

 

What does Mahomes do? Does he run? tick..tick..tick 13, 12, 11, 10...

 

Fine! go ahead. 9, 8, 7 ,6,5 and we tackle you at the 35-40. 

 

Meanwhile, what do the OL do? They can't run downfield or he cannot pass. So they stand there doing nothing, not sure what to do. Probably someone goes go downfield.

 

It totally throws the offense off. That's not supposed to happen. It's also a non-hail mary play so the WR aren't running super deep routes, so there's really no danger of letting Mahomes just stand there for 5 seconds or 6 seconds to find the open man. The more time it takes, the better. 

 

I thought Hyde was out on the last 2 plays?  Or are you talking about the last 2 plays of regulation?