Wonderlic Test Eliminated from Pre-Draft Process

[nucci]

Not sure how it evaluates how players will perform in the NFL.

[Albany,n.y.]

I read this speculation on why Lamar Jackson scored so much lower than the other QBs of his class: No agent.  It seems the agents coach the players up to the Wonderlic to the point that it no longer means anything.  A prime example is when JP Losman took it the 1st time he got a 14 and then after being coached up by his agent &/or others he got a 31.  

 

They've also limited offensive questions, so you can no longer ask a potential draftee "Have you ever sucked a ####? "  
 

[RoyBatty is alive]

One of the biggest issues I have had with the Wunderlic is how quickly these allegedly "secret" scores are publicized.  If I were a player,  I wouldnt want to be ridiculed for having a low test score.  That in itself is enough for the NFLPA is enough, imo, to get the NFL to can the tests.

[Chicken Boo]

18 minutes ago, RoyBatty is alive said:

That was a totally different era when Marino & Kelly took it.  Like comparing records of QB TD/INT ratios from back then versus today

 

I don't understand how eras come into play regarding the wonderlic.  

[Albany,n.y.]

3 minutes ago, Chicken Boo said:

 

I don't understand how eras come into play regarding the wonderlic.  

As I stated above, in this era the agents prepare their clients for the Wonderlic before they take the test.  In the early 1980s the agents weren't doing that.  

Edited January 5, 2022 by Albany,n.y.

[RoyBatty is alive]

Just now, Chicken Boo said:

 

I don't understand how eras come into play regarding the wonderlic.  

Players didnt prepare for the wonderlic, they formerly just took it cold.  Now pretty much everyone has copies of old tests, they take test exam after test exam to improve their score.

[Gugny]

26 minutes ago, dpberr said:

Out of curiosity, did you ever run your analysis on any other position?  I'm curious whether it'd apply to say middle linebacker or center.  I'm thinking of positions where you make the line calls and defensive calls.  I tend to assume centers and defensive play callers *would* score highly.  

 

I never have, but I think that would be super interesting and agree with your assumptions!

[JoPoy88]

12 minutes ago, RoyBatty is alive said:

One of the biggest issues I have had with the Wunderlic is how quickly these allegedly "secret" scores are publicized.  If I were a player,  I wouldnt want to be ridiculed for having a low test score.  That in itself is enough for the NFLPA is enough, imo, to get the NFL to can the tests.

That’s my thing - these supposedly confidential scores get leaked every single year by NFL staff and personnel, in part, I believe, to cover their a**es and give themselves an out for picking (or not picking) a certain player. Sorry but if the NFL and its teams can’t help themselves from being scumbags then the test gets axed.

 

I don’t know what the predictive value of the test is, nor do I really care. 

[SirAndrew]

I’d think talking with someone usually eliminates the need for a test to tell us if they’re intelligent. 

[RoyBatty is alive]

To think "native intelligence" doesnt play a  major part in pro QB success is naive.  The number of plays/auditbles/formations and instantaneous analysis they have to make is extraordinary.  Imagin Josh Allen with a room temperature IQ, i dont think he would be nearly the QB he is today, if for no other reason he can figure things out like how to be a good leader.  The NFL is littered with QBs with all the physical attributes but didnt have the mental acumen like Vince Young, Jarmercus Russel, JP Losman and on and on.  

 

Is intelligence the defining factor for a QB, obviously not but it certainly makes his job a lot easier.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, Gugny said:

I've gone through this exercise multiple times over the years, so I'll just summarize what I believe (based on reality) to be true, re: the Wonderlic:

 

This is specific to QUARTERBACKS, beginning with the year 2000.

 

15 is the cutoff.  

 

A QB who scores 15 or lower WILL not have sustained success as an NFL starter.

A QB who scores 16 or higher MAY (not will) have sustained success as an NFL starter.

 

I maintain that this has been a useful tool in weeding out QBs that simply aren't that good.

 

And I know that Lamar Jackson has had lots of regular season success and he had a phenomenal MVP season.  But he has regressed since then and the Ravens have not been a legitimate Super Bowl contender ... which is what all teams want.

 

I know my opinion is controversial, but I've believed in it for years and no one will change my mind.

 

I've done the homework and made the lists in the past.  Not doing it anymore.

 

And before you chime in with "Jim Kelly got a 12," look at the years in scope.  Before you chime in with "Ryan Fitzpatrick scored over 40," look at what a score above 15 says above.

 

 

If you have a belief that “no one can change”, at that point it’s no longer an opinion supported by data - it is dogma, an article of faith

[Spiderweb]

2 hours ago, Ridgewaycynic2013 said:

No, Allen higher...at least according to this:

Wonderlic scores for 2018 QBs

Josh Allen: 37

Josh Rosen: 29

Sam Darnold: 28

Baker Mayfield: 25

Lamar Jackson: 13

 

Lamar's Wonderlic score matches his looks too!

[Hapless Bills Fan]

17 minutes ago, RoyBatty is alive said:

To think "native intelligence" doesnt play a  major part in pro QB success is naive.  The number of plays/auditbles/formations and instantaneous analysis they have to make is extraordinary.  Imagin Josh Allen with a room temperature IQ, i dont think he would be nearly the QB he is today, if for no other reason he can figure things out like how to be a good leader.  The NFL is littered with QBs with all the physical attributes but didnt have the mental acumen like Vince Young, Jarmercus Russel, JP Losman and on and on.  

 

Is intelligence the defining factor for a QB, obviously not but it certainly makes his job a lot easier.

 

I don’t think anyone would debate that intelligence plays a major role in pro football success.

 

I think the debate is whether the Wonderlic actually measures native intelligence, vs. a specific set of educational skills which may or may not be relevant to football

My understanding is that like the SAT, it’s been found to trend more towards the latter.

[T master]

1 hour ago, Purplebulldog said:

At least Vince Young will have a forever NFL record!

 

Didn't Fitz have the highest score on the test ?  

[purple haze]

2 hours ago, maddenboy said:

I dont like how Florio states his opinion here as if it were fact.  Stating that the wonderlic is irrelevant.  That's a stupid statement in itself.

 

There's 32 teams and lots of personnel on each team.  How can he possibly know how it is used.  

 

I disagree that it is irrelevant.  But if teams use it wrongly, that's better for the teams that use it correctly.  I think what he NFL is after here, is (1) stopping the scores from leaking and (2) possible liability later, for leaked scores.  Especially if there are statements regarding confidentiality that the nfl makes to the test takers.

What’s relevant about it?  Like any standard test it’s an amalgamation of facts someone, whomever they are, seem to be important.  Are they though?  And who decides?  It’s a pointless exercise.  Test players about football.  That’s what they’re going to be doing.  Remembering random facts isn’t necessarily an indicator of anything, even if the facts are ones most people know.

[K-9]

2 hours ago, strive_for_five_guy said:

What’s the reason for it being eliminated?

If I had to guess, I’d say the league sees cultural bias in the test. Educators have been trumpeting that for decades about IQ tests, too. 

[Ridgewaycynic2013]

7 minutes ago, T master said:

 

Didn't Fitz have the highest score on the test ?  

I thought he wrote it!

[Hapless Bills Fan]

56 minutes ago, Albany,n.y. said:

I read this speculation on why Lamar Jackson scored so much lower than the other QBs of his class: No agent.  It seems the agents coach the players up to the Wonderlic to the point that it no longer means anything.

 

Yep.  Although I personally believe Lamar and his mother were “crazy like a fox” with the whole draft process.  

 

I think they wanted Lamar to be drafted in the first round for the contract guarantees, but they actually did not want him to be drafted very high.  Why?  Because typically, being drafted high means you are gonna go to a bad team and there will be struggles.  Lamar worked on stuff that mattered to them, like improving his footwork and passing and his ability to assess a defense and call appropriate plays.  Lamar didn’t work on stuff that didn’t matter to them.

 

There were a whole pile of things at the time - the lack of prep for the Wonderlic and the low score, also Lamar’s instagram account had some eyebrow-raising stuff - nothing explicit but quoting dope-related lyrics and stuff like that ( @BadLandsMeanie drew this to my attention, I wasn’t following Lamar).  Nothing that would knock him out of the first round, but just enough to lower his stock a bit.

 

At the time there was various tsk-tsk-ing about how Jackson was costing himself draft slots and corresponding $$ that an agent could have helped them bring in, but I personally think Mama Jackson and Lamar felt he would get enough money on his first contract and have a better chance at a more lucrative 2nd contract if he went to a team with a proven coach, good players, and a winning culture in place.  The Ravens checked all the boxes.

[Buffalo716]

1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

 

So just look at the data above.  Josh Allen and Lamar Jackson are arguably the two best QB from the draft class - Lamar has already won league MVP and whether or not we agree, is heading to the pro bowl again.  The Ravens have been a playoff team Jackson’s first 3 seasons, and arguably would be one again if Jackson didn’t miss 4 games from week 15 to 17.

 

Next would be Baker Mayfield.  The Browns were a playoff team last year and arguably would be one again if Mayfield weren’t hurt.

 

Sam Darnold has been able to see the field in the NFL, albeit neither his TD to INT ratio, his completion %, nor his YPG look particularly promising.

Josh Rosen looks like a flat-out first-round Bust.

 

So being a Buffalo homer and ranking the QB in order of team contribution, we have  37-13-25-28-29

 

I don’t think you need an advanced stats degree to conclude that there isn’t a correlation between Wonderlic and football contribution.

Don't think the wonderlic is an end all be all

 

But there's usually a baseline that you need to hit especially at the quarterback position  ... There's a reason they always tested them

 

Very few modern quarterbacks have made it with a low score like Lamar..  yet his world class athleticism has allowed him to thrive.. it'd be interesting to see how he plays when he's no longer the best athlete on the field

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[K-9]

29 minutes ago, RoyBatty is alive said:

To think "native intelligence" doesnt play a  major part in pro QB success is naive.  The number of plays/auditbles/formations and instantaneous analysis they have to make is extraordinary.  Imagin Josh Allen with a room temperature IQ, i dont think he would be nearly the QB he is today, if for no other reason he can figure things out like how to be a good leader.  The NFL is littered with QBs with all the physical attributes but didnt have the mental acumen like Vince Young, Jarmercus Russel, JP Losman and on and on.  

 

Is intelligence the defining factor for a QB, obviously not but it certainly makes his job a lot easier.

How much does intelligence inform decision making because imo, decision making is job one for quarterbacks.