RB depth

[BrainwashedBillsFan]

20 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

I agree.  Nothing happens more consistently in the NFL than the late-season flash of some running back who's been mired way down on the depth chart.   Fans get all excited and think the guy is going to be a 1000-yard back next season.  

 

That guy is at the bottom of the depth chart for a reason, probably two or three reasons.   He flashed for any of several reasons - (1) much of the success of running backs is attributable to offensive line play - any of the team's backs would have had a nice game running behind the line that day, (2) it's the end of the season and the defense mailed it in, (3) no one on the defense had ever seen the kid, either live or on film.  

 

If Williams were Adrian Peterson, he would be the starting running back.   He isn't, and he isn't. 

All I’m saying Shaw is give the kid a chance. He was a rookie last year and we already know what we have in singletary which is not much in my opinion. Yes moss and Williams have a similar skill set but Williams has more of a burst if you ask me. Let’s see what the kid has and you might be surprised cause not everyone stays last on the depth chart every year. 

[BrainwashedBillsFan]

19 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

So you are saying that teams are afraid of Antonio Williams and Zach Moss?  

 

C'mon.

 

The running game will be good if the blocking is good.

 

I’m saying you might be surprised with Antonio this year, that is all. Kid is working hard. And players can get better. Idk maybe I’m just a glass half full kinda guy. We shall see

[HOUSE]

two words

 

pass

[JESSEFEFFER]

On 5/8/2021 at 8:48 AM, H2o said:

Like I said in a previous thread, I don't think our RB depth chart is as bad as many make it out to be. I think we have a solid group and there will be some real competition in camp this year. Having an actual TC/Preseason to evaluate will also be helpful for all involved as well. Someone is going to end up being the odd man out and it won't be for lack of ability.

I can't help but think that the reason most think so little of our RB group is that none of them are great options in Fantasy football.  The Bills offense is by design one that lacks the elements to feature one RB.  In Reality football these guys can and do contribute to a dynamic, pass first, QB driven offense,  Moss is a great pass protector and a good target.  The QB rating throwing to him was 107.   Josh takes goal-to-goal carries away from both of them.  While I do like what Moss brings more than Singletary, it's  pretty clear that the way Devin was used at FAU means he has more work to do as a pro to fit into the offense.  Both are good at breaking tackles which is an under appreciated skill, contact balance is the new scoutspeak term.  The home games vs. NE and LAC showed what these guys can do when the running game is more featured in their plan.

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[Bulldog]

Don't worry too much about the running game. The backs on our roster are young & talented. If our OL stays healthy and performs better in run blocking, then our backs will perform just fine. Not to mention with the QB & wide receivers we have on this roster - and with the pass happy state of the rules in the NFL these days - we better remain a heavily pass oriented offense! We had one of the best offenses in the league last year (both for yardage & scoring) - a little tweak to that offense is OK- but not much more than that. 

[Doc]

Having the interior OL healthy, set and able to practice together from the get-go should help a lot.

[Shaw66]

2 hours ago, BrainwashedBillsFan said:

All I’m saying Shaw is give the kid a chance. He was a rookie last year and we already know what we have in singletary which is not much in my opinion. Yes moss and Williams have a similar skill set but Williams has more of a burst if you ask me. Let’s see what the kid has and you might be surprised cause not everyone stays last on the depth chart every year. 

I don't disagree.  Give him every opportunity. Maybe he needed a whole season to learn past pro and other stuff, and the Bill's think now he's ready.   Maybe he is why the Bills weren't looking hard for a rb. 

 

All I'm saying is that every few years there is a late season guy who people get excited about.  

  

[Mr. WEO]

59 minutes ago, JESSEFEFFER said:

I can't help but think that the reason most think so little of our RB group is that none of them are great options in Fantasy football.  The Bills offense is by design one that lacks the elements to feature one RB.  In Reality football these guys can and do contribute to a dynamic, pass first, QB driven offense,  Moss is a great pass protector and a good target.  The QB rating throwing to him was 107.   Josh takes goal-to-goal carries away from both of them.  While I do like what Moss brings more than Singletary, it's  pretty clear that the way Devin was used at FAU means he has more work to do as a pro to fit into the offense.  Both are good at breaking tackles which is an under appreciated skill, contact balance is the new scoutspeak term.  The home games vs. NE and LAC showed what these guys can do when the running game is more featured in their plan.

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I'm betting most QBs have a rating over 100 throwing to RBs 6 feet away...

[RyanC883]

2 points why we need a better running game:  1. QB’s who become the leading rusher of a team do not last long.  2.  Keep defenses honest.  If they sell out to stop the pass or blitz, a well designed and executed run can get 20-30 yards. 

 

I think both the blocking and lane reading by RB’s were an issue last year.  

[BrainwashedBillsFan]

1 hour ago, Shaw66 said:

I don't disagree.  Give him every opportunity. Maybe he needed a whole season to learn past pro and other stuff, and the Bill's think now he's ready.   Maybe he is why the Bills weren't looking hard for a rb. 

 

All I'm saying is that every few years there is a late season guy who people get excited about.  

  

Very true. I think a lot of us are suckers for the underdog, which goes hand in hand with being a Bills fan I think. Although we aren’t dogs anymore! And I def agree with you regarding our line play last season. Can’t wait for the season, go Bills! 

[TC in St. Louis]

Breida, according to some, wasn't properly used in Miami.  He's super fast.  He knows the NFL, so there shouldn't be the learning curve most rookies experience getting used to the NFL game.  Pretty sure Daboll has worked up a few plays to take advantage of that.  

 

I saw a tape showing a breakdown of Moss and Singletary.  I think they both have talent.  Singletary has gone nuts this offseason to improve his strength.  He is faster than his measured 40.  Moss played hurt most of the year.  Let us also keep in mind that we are a pretty good passing team.  Maybe we use the pass to set up the run.  The run game runs down the clock.  

 

I'd rather have Rousseau than Etienne.  We needed pass rush help more than we needed another RB.  

3 hours ago, HOUSE said:

two words

 

pass

Technically three words.  

[BADOLBILZ]

4 hours ago, BrainwashedBillsFan said:

I’m saying you might be surprised with Antonio this year, that is all. Kid is working hard. And players can get better. Idk maybe I’m just a glass half full kinda guy. We shall see

 

 

Then just say those things rather than make false equivalencies.   Most Bills fan are aware of Antonio Williams after his game against Miami and many are like you and want to see more.  I like Antonio Williams in outside zone..........it's literally the only system he fits because he is a one speed, one-cut runner who runs hard to the hole.   He's not very talented........not as nimble or scheme versatile as Moss or Singletary.   Singletary is more liable to get quicker and more decisive thru training than Williams is to get more of what he lacks.  But plenty of lower talent, hard runners have excelled in OZ.   He is at least good depth for the system and maybe more.

 

 

Edited May 9, 2021 by BADOLBILZ

[Rocky Landing]

18 hours ago, Buffalo Barbarian said:

Christian Wade

 

 

Christian Wade is single-handedly making me look forward to the preseason games.

[Rocky Landing]

2 hours ago, BrainwashedBillsFan said:

Very true. I think a lot of us are suckers for the underdog, which goes hand in hand with being a Bills fan I think. Although we aren’t dogs anymore! And I def agree with you regarding our line play last season. Can’t wait for the season, go Bills! 

I know I am-- to a fault.

[hondo in seattle]

I think we have great depth at RB.   But I’m not convinced we have a true #1 back.

 

But like Shaw66 likes to point out, our OL didn’t give our backs a lot of space.

 

Not only was our OL better at pass pro than road grading, Daboll is probably better at pass scheming than run scheming.

 

I hope this year we can make defenses pay when they sell out to stop the pass.

 

[BrainwashedBillsFan]

8 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Then just say those things rather than make false equivalencies.   Most Bills fan are aware of Antonio Williams after his game against Miami and many are like you and want to see more.  I like Antonio Williams in outside zone..........it's literally the only system he fits because he is a one speed, one-cut runner who runs hard to the hole.   He's not very talented........not as nimble or scheme versatile as Moss or Singletary.   Singletary is more liable to get quicker and more decisive thru training than Williams is to get more of what he lacks.  But plenty of lower talent, hard runners have excelled in OZ.   He is at least good depth for the system and maybe more.

 

 

False equivalencies? You see no similarities in Williams and moss? Guys are pretty similar in my mind. And singletary is average at best. And idk how you can say that singletary has the ability to get quicker but Williams can’t? Interesting, I thought anyone who does velocity training would benefit but you seem more knowledgeable on singletary then most 

[BADOLBILZ]

1 hour ago, BrainwashedBillsFan said:

False equivalencies? You see no similarities in Williams and moss? Guys are pretty similar in my mind. And singletary is average at best. And idk how you can say that singletary has the ability to get quicker but Williams can’t? Interesting, I thought anyone who does velocity training would benefit but you seem more knowledgeable on singletary then most 

 

 

Yes, false equivalences,  as in implying that defense's fear Moss and Williams by saying they don't fear Singletary.   They don't fear any of them.

 

Williams and Moss are both physical runners but that's about the end of the comparison.   Moss is outstanding at pass protection,  that's his greatest trait as a pro RB.    Who knows about Williams instincts and prowess in pass pro, unlike Moss he didn't play much in college even.  He was the kind of back UNC took off the field on 3rd down and he has only had a handful of passes thrown his way in his college and pro career. 

 

What Williams lacks isn't quickness or speed,  it's general athleticism and elusiveness.  He's a stiff, straight ahead runner without change of direction or change of speed skills.   Doesn't take a great talent to succeed in a well-blocked outside zone scheme though.   Singletary isn't a natural fit for outside zone, but he's easily the more athletic and scheme versatile RB between he and Williams.   It's not close. 

[Lothar]

11 hours ago, RyanC883 said:

2 points why we need a better running game:  1. QB’s who become the leading rusher of a team do not last long.  2.  Keep defenses honest.  If they sell out to stop the pass or blitz, a well designed and executed run can get 20-30 yards. 

 

I think both the blocking and lane reading by RB’s were an issue last year.  

Except Cover 1 did an analysis at the end of the season on both backs and I think used PFF days to show that Moss was the best blocking back in the NFL by the end of the season. Even Singletary was better than average. 

 

There's a lot of hot takes on here about Williams being better but I think you're gonna see Moss and Singletary be a lot better this year.

[Rocky Landing]

4 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Yes, false equivalences,  as in implying that defense's fear Moss and Williams by saying they don't fear Singletary.   They don't fear any of them.

 

Williams and Moss are both physical runners but that's about the end of the comparison.   Moss is outstanding at pass protection,  that's his greatest trait as a pro RB.    Who knows about Williams instincts and prowess in pass pro, unlike Moss he didn't play much in college even.  He was the kind of back UNC took off the field on 3rd down and he has only had a handful of passes thrown his way in his college and pro career. 

 

What Williams lacks isn't quickness or speed,  it's general athleticism and elusiveness.  He's a stiff, straight ahead runner without change of direction or change of speed skills.   Doesn't take a great talent to succeed in a well-blocked outside zone scheme though.   Singletary isn't a natural fit for outside zone, but he's easily the more athletic and scheme versatile RB between he and Williams.   It's not close. 

I have felt for a while that the problem with the Bills running backs isn't that they're all pretty average. It's that they're all  too similar. That's not to say that each of them doesn't have different things that they excel at. It's that they're all within about 10 lbs, and a few inches of each other. None of them are really a scat back, and none of them are a power back. They all do best breaking one way, or another, and aiming for a gap, which will generally be open for a fraction of a second.

 

If you were to rank them, IMO, Singletary might very well be the best. He certainly wouldn't be the worst! But, at the end of the day (or the end of training camp) he may very well be the odd man out. Moss is exceptional in pass protection (and that makes him a lock, IMO), Breida has the acceleration the others lack, and Williams may be the closest thing we have to a power back, who can reliably get us that first down on third and one. 

 

You are absolutely right to say that opposing teams "don't fear any of them." But, what that really means is that opposing teams don't fear our running game. And that is what needs to change, right? Maybe we don't really need a Saquon Barkley, or a Derek Henry. Maybe we just need a comprehensive running attack with the right elements?

[BADOLBILZ]

2 minutes ago, Rocky Landing said:

I have felt for a while that the problem with the Bills running backs isn't that they're all pretty average. It's that they're all  too similar. That's not to say that each of them doesn't have different things that they excel at. It's that they're all within about 10 lbs, and a few inches of each other. None of them are really a scat back, and none of them are a power back. They all do best breaking one way, or another, and aiming for a gap, which will generally be open for a fraction of a second.

 

If you were to rank them, IMO, Singletary might very well be the best. He certainly wouldn't be the worst! But, at the end of the day (or the end of training camp) he may very well be the odd man out. Moss is exceptional in pass protection (and that makes him a lock, IMO), Breida has the acceleration the others lack, and Williams may be the closest thing we have to a power back, who can reliably get us that first down on third and one. 

 

You are absolutely right to say that opposing teams "don't fear any of them." But, what that really means is that opposing teams don't fear our running game. And that is what needs to change, right? Maybe we don't really need a Saquon Barkley, or a Derek Henry. Maybe we just need a comprehensive running attack with the right elements?

 

Yeah they need to block for the run better to have a better running game.   Breida and Moss are natural fits in outside zone, so they have that at at RB at least.   When they were far and away the top rushing team in the NFL under Rex Ryan,  they got a ton of yardage and their most per-touch production out of Mike Gillislee and Karlos Williams, who weren't exceptional RB's.

 

I could see them trading Singletary or Moss in camp......they aren't bad RB's........but they won't bring much in return.

 

IMO RB isn't even a notable weakness for the Bills.........for a variety of reasons, the reality is that the difference in game-impact between having a great RB and a couple average one's isn't that significant.    Block and execute.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

12 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

Yeah they need to block for the run better to have a better running game.   Breida and Moss are natural fits in outside zone, so they have that at at RB at least.   When they were far and away the top rushing team in the NFL under Rex Ryan,  they got a ton of yardage and their most per-touch production out of Mike Gillislee and Karlos Williams, who weren't exceptional RB's.

 

That's true on the YPT, but it's worth noting that by far more overall production came from LeSean McCoy - who was still a star, and only played in 12 games - and Tyrod Taylor.  I think if you have great rungame production from a star, it makes it easier for the COP guys to get somewhere.  JMO though.

 

12 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

IMO RB isn't even a notable weakness for the Bills.........for a variety of reasons, the reality is that the difference in game-impact between having a great RB and a couple average one's isn't that significant.    Block and execute.

 

To your point, in games where we were able to "Block and execute" last year (Jets, Patriots, Chargers, Broncos), we ran just fine. 

 

My question is whether we've done enough that we'll be able to "Block and execute" against the better DLs this year.

[BADOLBILZ]

3 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

That's true on the YPT, but it's worth noting that by far more overall production came from LeSean McCoy - who was still a star, and only played in 12 games - and Tyrod Taylor.  I think if you have great rungame production from a star, it makes it easier for the COP guys to get somewhere.  JMO though.

 

 

To your point, in games where we were able to "Block and execute" last year (Jets, Patriots, Chargers, Broncos), we ran just fine. 

 

My question is whether we've done enough that we'll be able to "Block and execute" against the better DLs this year.

 

 

In 2016 that was the case......but not the first season under Roman when they lead the NFL in rushing in 2015.......when MG and KW ran for 784 yards and 10 TD's........McCoy ran for 895 and 3 TD's and did so at a full yard less per carry. 

 

The lesson was.......follow the play design LeSean........the blocking was there.   He did in 2016 and it paid dividends but even then MG lead the league in both ypc and in short yardage conversions (which would seem to be a counterintuitive combo) so they weren't sacrificing a thing handing it off to the non-star.    It really was mostly about the blocking and the RB following the dance steps laid out by design.   That kind of production has continued for Roman in Baltimore with a variety of backs.

 

When the Bills went to outside zone in 2017 the extra time or wider design challenged McCoy's new found discipline and he reverted to some bad habits and he struggled......but more importantly so did the OL which had a harder time reaching their blocks.

 

I don't know if they've done enough to improve their running game.........but they have added some intriguing scheme fits.   I would love to see them maybe send SF a 5th for Raheem Mostert.....a pending UFA.......and deal one of their other backs for a 7th.    SF might do it,  Shanahan is arrogant about RB's.....he just drafted two.......and Mostert is cheap for a huge per carry RB but not minimum wage.   That would give the Bills maybe the two fastest RB's in the NFL.   But still comes down to blocking.

[JPP]

Like alot of others when seeing Antonio Williams in that Denver game I was blown away (although at the time we had the game in hand) but dont know if thats too small of a sample size just yet.....Would love to see him get more chances next season....I like to think this could be our diamond in the rough.....so to speak.....

[Buffalo Barbarian]

On 5/8/2021 at 10:16 PM, IronMaidenBills said:

He will make the team. I’m convinced his raw talent will translate and he’s had enough years to learn the game. 

 

At least let him return kickoffs or punts, its a waste of his athleticism sitting on the bench.

 

 

[BillsCelticsAngelsBama]

Do we have the two shortest tandem of backs in the league or the two slowest----->or BOTH?😟

Edited May 12, 2021 by MOVALLEYRANDY

[Dr. K]

I just want to go into the season feeling that, when the Bills face a 3rd and 2 or less, they have at least a 75% chance of getting it. 

 

Last season it seemed to me they seldom made that first down unless Josh sneaked the ball, or they threw. It seemed to me it was a case of the line getting pushed around whenever the defense knew the Bills were going to run. 

[freddyjj]

On 5/10/2021 at 4:00 PM, JPP said:

Like alot of others when seeing Antonio Williams in that Denver game I was blown away (although at the time we had the game in hand) but dont know if thats too small of a sample size just yet.....Would love to see him get more chances next season....I like to think this could be our diamond in the rough.....so to speak.....

Williams only played in regular season finale vs Dolphins.  While he posted 5.25 YPC and 2 TDs and had a nice 20 yd catch, the Fins really quit in that game.  Fins were down 28-6 at the half and gave up another 4 TDs in the 2nd half to lose 56-26.

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So not sure the above stats have any real merit as they all happened in 2nd half of a blowout