So...are Edmunds and Oliver good?

[Coach Tuesday]

12 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

He was bad in the first half of the season because he was literally playing injured. Factor that in.

 

Can you point to a single game-altering play he made in 2020?  He's a zone/cover linebacker.  Any interceptions?  Any tipped balls that led to others' interceptions?  How about a blown up screen pass at a critical moment, any of those?  Did he shut down a single tight end?  (No, the Bills were at the bottom of the league in covering tight ends in 2020.)

 

He was playing injured, sure. Since then he's gone from bad to serviceable.  It's great that he makes the defensive calls but they're sacrificing a lot of playmaking to have a guy who can make the calls. 

[Freddie's Dead]

7 minutes ago, Sharky7337 said:

I know this is the popular board take but there is absolutely no merit to it yet , and everyone just regurgitates it as fact. I don't remember any other lb's or defenses that were worth anything being totally pedestrian on one 1t. And if you need a 1t and it falls apart you better have a solid backup or its a bad plan.

 

 

 

 

You nailed it, we did not have a solid backup.  We let Jordan Phillips go, and for that matter, we never really filled the hole Kyle Williams left behind in retirement.  Edmunds regressed badly this year, and I have a hard time explaining that any other way.

[DrDawkinstein]

I'd pick up the 5th year option on Edmunds but he is on a short leash and needs a dramatic improvement to get a 2nd contract. I get that McD's soft scheme has him playing deep off the ball, and he'll never be a "thumper", but as @Coach Tuesday points out, I dont see him make plays in coverage either.

 

Oliver... tough call. Definitely been underwhelming. Will be interested to see how he does with Star back next year (and hopefully another real 1-Tech on the roster as well). He was the right pick in 2019, looking at the other players taken after him. But that aint saying much, and it isnt translating to an NFL career so far.

[balln]

7 minutes ago, Ethan in Portland said:

Edmunds is not even average. He really is a liability on the defense at MLB. I dont care about his age. He has played for three years and is not getting any better. 

I still am of the opinion if Edmunds was moved outside to edge he would be a nightmare matchup. He is not the answer at MLB and for that reason I'm comfortable labeling him a bust at this point.

 

Oliver is an average DT at this point in his career.  DT takes longer to develop. For his draft positon he is a disappointment but not yet a bust. He doesn't split double teams and has very little pass rush. I don't care what win rate somebody publishes, I watch the game and he does not push the pocket or move the QB off his spot.  At worst Oliver will be a starter maybe even bordering on solid starter. I really doubt he will be a pro bowl talent. He was never big enough to be a star, but I think he can still be a decent starting level DT.

oliver is NOT an average DT. he is well below. he is in the bottom 10 maybe 5 %.

 

 

[GaryPinC]

I'd like to see them trade Edmunds as I think his value is maxxed thanks to the pro-bowl nods.  He's been more physical in the playoffs but has no instincts for the game, as others have said.  Constantly being fooled and hoping his athleticism can make it up.   While I felt he was more physical in the playoffs, he's still below par with it.

If he's staying, I think you move him to an outside spot and simplify the game for him and see if it helps.  Also, maybe his shoulder still isn't 100%?

 

Oliver, I'd like to see him with a space-eater in the middle.  He's shown he can make some strong plays.

 

Epenesa is reworking his body, way too early to pass final judgement.  He's really reshaped so credit his dedication.

[KOKBILLS]

2 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

I'd pick up the 5th year option on Edmunds but he is on a short leash and needs a dramatic improvement to get a 2nd contract. I get that McD's soft scheme has him playing deep off the ball, and he'll never be a "thumper", but as @Coach Tuesday points out, I dont see him make plays in coverage either.

 

Oliver... tough call. Definitely been underwhelming. Will be interested to see how he does with Star back next year (and hopefully another real 1-Tech on the roster as well). He was the right pick in 2019, looking at the other players taken after him. But that aint saying much, and it isnt translating to an NFL career so far.

 

I'm guessing you are not including DK Metcalf in the list of those other players. Because that is exactly who I would have taken. And I made that point abundantly clear here about a million times...😂

[Victory Formation]

Edmunds problem is he’s being forced to react. They sit him in zone coverage 95% of the time. If they would allow him to attack more I think he’d be better. Mainly I think our coaching philosophy is what’s holding us back on defense. Milano and Edmunds simply let the play come to them instead of violently attacking the backfield. This is why RBs are getting 10 yards a pop instead of a 2 yard loss. Until there is a major shift in philosophy, it wouldn’t matter if we had Ray Lewis at LB.

[Southern_Bills]

Have they lived up to their draft positions? No, not really. Can you go open a trash can and replace them today with no fall off? No. 

 

They are valuable members of the team, you can't blame them for being drafted too high. I think Edmunds will be fine, in zone he follows the QBs eyes too much instead of doing what his role is in the zone coverage, but ah well, hopefully he outgrows it.

[dave mcbride]

12 minutes ago, Coach Tuesday said:

 

Can you point to a single game-altering play he made in 2020?  He's a zone/cover linebacker.  Any interceptions?  Any tipped balls that led to others' interceptions?  How about a blown up screen pass at a critical moment, any of those?  Did he shut down a single tight end?  (No, the Bills were at the bottom of the league in covering tight ends in 2020.)

 

He was playing injured, sure. Since then he's gone from bad to serviceable.  It's great that he makes the defensive calls but they're sacrificing a lot of playmaking to have a guy who can make the calls. 

I thought he played extremely well vs. Baltimore and was basically pretty effective from the SF game onward. My view of him is that he's still very young -- 22 years old, for God's sake! -- and physically very talented. Fans have to be patient with players. Let them develop. I am in no way saying he was anything close to elite this year, but factor in his age and experience when making assessments.  One thing I've become focused on is the importance of coaching up rare, elite physical talent. It can take time, but the payoff can be huge. I just feel like a guy that size who runs a 4.54 40 is someone you shouldn't make a final judgment on, especially since he's just 22.

Edited January 25, 2021 by dave mcbride

[KOKBILLS]

Just now, dave mcbride said:

I thought he played extremely well vs. Baltimore and was basically pretty effective from the SF game onward. My view of him is that he's still very young -- 22 years old, for God's sake! -- and physically very talented. Fans have to be patient with players. Let them develop. I am in no way saying he was anything close to elite this year, but factor in his age and experience when making assessments.  One thing I've become focused on is the importance of coaching up elite physical talent. It can take time, but the payoff can be huge. I just feel like a guy that size who runs a 4.54 40 is someone you shouldn't make a final judgment on, especially since he's just 22.

 

You really think he's a 4-3 MLB? I realize he can be an asset...I just don't think it's inside in a 4-3...😎

[DrDawkinstein]

2 minutes ago, KOKBILLS said:

 

I'm guessing you are not including DK Metcalf in the list of those other players. Because that is exactly who I would have taken. And I made that point abundantly clear here about a million times...😂

 

Right, Im not talking about making insane, 100% hindsight reaches based on information no one could've had. Considering Metcalf didnt go until pick #64, he is not an option to replace the Oliver #9 overall pick.

 

I'm talking DL at the top of the 1st round. Or even through the entire 1st round.

[dave mcbride]

Just now, KOKBILLS said:

 

You really think he's a 4-3 MLB? I realize he can be an asset...I just don't think it's inside in a 4-3...😎

That I don't know. He does call the defense at this point, and that's something to consider. It's usually the MLB's job. It's not like the Bills defense is terrible. Overall, it was average this year after a couple of seasons of being a lot better. I think that decline and yesterday's loss is understandably coloring people's perspectives right now.

[KOKBILLS]

Just now, DrDawkinstein said:

 

Right, Im not talking about making insane, 100% hindsight reaches based on information no one could've had. Considering Metcalf didnt go until pick #64, he is not an option to replace the Oliver #9 overall pick.

 

I'm talking DL at the top of the 1st round. Or even through the entire 1st round.

 

I hear ya...But it's not hindsight or insane for me...Go look up my posts...It was the right pick...Period.

[balln]

Just now, Victory Formation said:

Edmunds problem is he’s being forced to react. They sit him in zone coverage 95% of the time. If they would allow him to attack more I think he’d be better. Mainly I think our coaching philosophy is what’s holding us back on defense. Milano and Edmunds simply let the play come to them instead of violently attacking the backfield. This is why RBs are getting 10 yards a pop instead of a 2 yard loss. Until there is a major shift in philosophy, it wouldn’t matter if we had Ray Lewis at LB.

lol he was THE CHOSEN one for this Defense by this GM. he just sucks. 

 

there are certain downs and distances and situations where he supposed to attack and he still sucks

6 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

I thought he played extremely well vs. Baltimore and was basically pretty effective from the SF game onward. My view of him is that he's still very young -- 22 years old, for God's sake! -- and physically very talented. Fans have to be patient with players. Let them develop. I am in no way saying he was anything close to elite this year, but factor in his age and experience when making assessments.  One thing I've become focused on is the importance of coaching up rare, elite physical talent. It can take time, but the payoff can be huge. I just feel like a guy that size who runs a 4.54 40 is someone you shouldn't make a final judgment on, especially since he's just 22.

im still holding onto this branch as well

[Yobogoya!]

Neither one has become the takeover-the-game type of monster you’d have hoped for based on where they were drafted. I wouldn’t say they’re bad, but it’s hard not to be disappointed. 

 

Honestly I’m becoming a bit concerned with our staff’s ability to identify top flight defensive talent. When it comes to the solid depth / role players, we find those in spades. But they’ve yet to bring on anyone who can dominate a game week after week. 

 

Our top 4 defense players are White, Hyde, Poyer and Hughes... and all them were acquired back when Whaley was still the GM. 😔

[DrDawkinstein]

2 minutes ago, KOKBILLS said:

 

I hear ya...But it's not hindsight or insane for me...Go look up my posts...It was the right pick...Period.

 

I'll take your word for it. I know there were a few posters who were banging that DK drum. Especially because, like vegans and crossfit people, they never shut up about it. 🤣

 

[Ethan in Cleveland]

9 minutes ago, balln said:

oliver is NOT an average DT. he is well below. he is in the bottom 10 maybe 5 %.

 

 

No he isn't.  He rarely gets blown off the ball. For his lack of ideal size he actually holds up in the run game ok.  He gets the double team most of the time. Nobody is doubling Phillips or Zimmer. 

I did not want to draft him and thought it was a bad decision.  But that doesn't color my evaluation of him. He's just average and for a top ten pick that is a disappointment.

 

[KOKBILLS]

1 minute ago, dave mcbride said:

That I don't know. He does call the defense at this point, and that's something to consider. It's usually the MLB's job. It's not like the Bills defense is terrible. Overall, it was average this year after a couple of seasons of being a lot better. I think that decline and yesterday's loss is understandably coloring people's perspectives right now.

 

I just don't think he's got the physical make-up for that position. He's an absolute freak athlete...But IMHO his instincts and tackling at the point of attack are lacking. And it may simply be because they put so much on his plate. He really struggled a lot this year at finishing tackles around the line of scrimmage. You just can't have that from a 4-3 MLB... 😎

[delirious]

Great players are great despite their situations. Excuse after excuse has been thrown out for Edmunds when He clearly doesn't have it in this system.  I staunchly defended him the first two years but not seeing any progression after this third year, I'm off the train. 

 

I don't understand the mental gymnastics in support for him and his play. It's literally sub par. 

[Luka]

Short answer? No. No they are not.

 

Long answer?

 

I don't want to hear about Pro Bowls or draft status or any of that bull####.

 

Where do teams attack us with the most success? The middle of the field. Where do Edmunds and Oliver play? Middle of the field.

 

Edmunds will never be good in the middle of the field. While he's fast, he isn't explosive. He still can not diagnose plays. Any motion gets him completely off schedule. He physically does not have the bulk to take on blocks at the line and his height prevents him from getting leverage on 5'9" 200lb running backs. He misses tons of tackles. McDermott's scheme requires a smart, explosive, hard hitting player in the middle of the field and Edmunds ain't it.

 

And Oliver? What can be said about the supposed "next Aaron Donald?" No really. I don't think I've ever noticed him on the field. He's kind of just there. Don't see him in the backfield, don't see him making tackles in the run game. 11 TFL in two full seasons. He has games without a stat line. Is that really what you expect out of guy drafted high in the 1st round?