Protest in Buffalo

[ALF]

If a person does not have common sense and decency they should not be in law enforcement. 

[Beast]

6 hours ago, Beast said:

Here’s what I think. again, JMO.

 

The two officers to my eye, look very young. could be wrong there but I would bet they don’t want to arrest an old man. They push him back. He doesn’t catch his balance because of his age and the rest happens. I bet anything they now wish they just took him into custody instead of pushing him. Those two, I’m quite certain, will lose their career over this decision which I see why they did it, but.....it didn’t end up good. The one Officer seems to be a little more responsible for this.It will be interesting to see how that is viewed.

And the bad part that sucks for them is that is the exact way they are trained for riot training. To push back and continue forward. They will lose their job for doing their job correctly but there is always gray area and they were in that gray area. You probably shouldn’t shove an elderly person. 
 

I would say they will both probably be charged with Assault in the 3rd Degree, a Misdemeanor, for recklessly causing physical injury to another.

It will be interesting to see if they attempt to charge the one with Assault 2nd , a Felony, for having a riot stick and pushing him with that. I don’t think they will because the stick didn’t cause the injury. The concrete did.

 

There is a subdivision under Assault For a person over 65 and the actor being 10 years younger but you have to show an intent to injure. There obviously is no intent in this matter.

 

Now, if this man dies which is a possibility, they will both be charged with Manslaughter 2nd Degree.

This bothered me all night. It was an awful thing to see. The more I thought about it I fully expect an arrest but I’m not so sure either will be convicted of anything. They were acting within the scope of their job regardless of the mans age. I mean, I do believe they acted recklessly but I also believe It can be argued they were doing their job the way they were taught.

 

Again, I think it definitely should have been handled much differently and I do expect an arrest but I do not know about a conviction.

 

 

[Wacka]

On the morning news, that said that the cops were clearing Niagara Square  at 8 PM at the start of curfew Why was he there in the first place?  Could have a small cut on the head. They bleed profusely.  when mu brother was a kid a neighbor kid hit him in the he'd with a small tock. One or Two stiches,  blood was pouring down.

Edited June 5, 2020 by Wacka

[Warren Zevon]

20 minutes ago, Beast said:

I also believe It can be argued they were doing their job the way they were taught.

 

This is the exact reason why millions all over this country are protesting.

[4merper4mer]

16 minutes ago, Warren Zevon said:

 

This is the exact reason why millions all over this country are protesting.

Cops should definitely let people take their taxpayer funded guns.  Those are the people's guns.  

[Beast]

34 minutes ago, Warren Zevon said:

 

This is the exact reason why millions all over this country are protesting.

 

No. I disagree.

 

The officers in Minneapolis were NOT doing their jobs.

 

 

[SoCal Deek]

2 hours ago, ALF said:

If a person does not have common sense and decency they should not be in law enforcement. 

Have you ever been in law enforcement? Have you ever worked a job where your equipment included clubs, shields, fire arms, and handcuffs? Why do you think the Police are equipped with those tools? I’m guessing it’s because they’re often confronted with people who have neither common sense or decency!

[Wacka]

It's 8 o'clock, the start of the curfew. You are to be in your home or yard .  The cops were clearing the square.  The guy approached them. Common sense rule #1- if a line of cops approach you ,go the other way.

Edited June 5, 2020 by Wacka

[RiotAct]

7 hours ago, Hedge said:

 

 

Byron was on MSNBC?  Holy crap!  Good for him!!!

[SoCal Deek]

5 minutes ago, Wacka said:

It's 8 o'clock, the start of the curfew. You are to be in your home or yard them on the city.  The cops were clearing the square.  The guty approached them. Common sense rule #1- if a line of cops approach you ,go the other way.

Have you noticed this common denominator? How is it that people think it’s a wise move  to confront uniformed enforcement officials? This is the root of all of these problems! We need to have a national discussion of what police do, why we have them, and how you should approach and interact with them. 

Edited June 5, 2020 by SoCal Deek

[Buffalo_Gal]

Just now, SoCal Deek said:

Have you noticed this common denominator? How is it that people think it’s a wise move  to confront uniformed enforcement officials? This is the root of all of these problems! We need to have a national discussion of what police do, why we have them, and how you should approach and interact with them. 

Yeah, I cannot understand why that man thought it would be a good idea to approach a line of riot police, and then disobey the order of a police office several times (get back).  
 

[SoCal Deek]

Just now, Buffalo_Gal said:

Yeah, I cannot understand why that man thought it would be a good idea to approach a line of riot police, and then disobey the order of a police office several times (get back).  
 

It’s because we’ve spent decades trying to convince society that the police are there to get your cat down out of a tree! 

[Wacka]

I think its probably an old hippie. Right age.

[SoCal Deek]

7 minutes ago, Wacka said:

I think its probably an old hippie. Right age.

For his age, he clearly has no fear of Covid 19....or maybe he just said ‘what the heck’!

[4merper4mer]

3 hours ago, Beast said:

 

No. I disagree.

 

The officers in Minneapolis were NOT doing their jobs.

 

 

Come on dude get out your broad brush.  It makes it so much easier to communize.

Edited June 5, 2020 by 4merper4mer

[Chef Jim]

56 minutes ago, Beast said:

 

No. I disagree.

 

The officers in Minneapolis were NOT doing their jobs.

 

 

Correct but now they are protesting ALL police. “***** the Police!” Is their war cry. 

[Buffalo_Gal]

5 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

For his age, he clearly has no fear of Covid 19....or maybe he just said ‘what the heck’!

Oh come on! He had on a mask while outside. Everyone knows masks protect you from the Wuhan virus.

[Chef Jim]

3 hours ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said:

 

....yet a line in the Buffalo News said he "tripped and fell"........(??)......

Yeah fake news!!  He stumbled...stumbled. 

[Reality Check]

12 minutes ago, Chef Jim said:

Correct but now they are protesting ALL police. “***** the Police!” Is their war cry. 

I have a morbid curiosity to see what happens in these cities if the police were disbanded. So much so that I am considering stealing a 3D TV to get the full effect.

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

24 minutes ago, Reality Check said:

I have a morbid curiosity to see what happens in these cities if the police were disbanded. So much so that I am considering stealing a 3D TV to get the full effect.

 

...it must be at least 72" to maintain social distancing from the guy helping you "appropriate" it, right??……..

[Bob in Mich]

6 minutes ago, Chef Jim said:

Yeah fake news!!  He stumbled...stumbled. 

 

This incident in Buffalo demonstrates several of the reasons for widespread anger by the protesters.  Protesters claim:

 

-too often excess or careless force is used

-the other officers present  do not seem to correct the bad behavior

-the other police officers then lie in reports to cover for the excess

-without the videos the police version of events is assumed true

- this all results in a perception of a lack of accountability for bad police behavior. 

- covering for bad cops then too often results in future bad police behavior leading to undeserved citizen injuries and deaths

-in addition, trust in law enforcement overall then suffers

-lawsuits then follow, costing the taxpayers actual dollars 

 

So, how do we improve the accountability and the trust?  How do you empower officers to better control bad behavior in other officers?  How do you convince police unions that gains they perceive in covering for bad officers are lost many times over in the long run, as we see in the rioting?

[Reality Check]

1 minute ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said:

 

...it must be at least 72" to maintain social distancing from the guy helping you "appropriate" it, right??……..

When I break the law, I do it legally.

[Buffalo_Gal]

I took issue with the word tripped in the police report. The man stumbled backward. However,  according to the thesaurus the words "trip" and "stumble" are synonymous.

[Uncle Joe]

6 minutes ago, Buffalo_Gal said:

I took issue with the word tripped in the police report. The man stumbled backward. However,  according to the thesaurus the words "trip" and "stumble" are synonymous.

After I broke my leg 5 years ago one of the key focus in PT was working on my balance. I still need to be careful doing physical chores due to losing my balance. That old man in the video lost his balance and then stumbled, tripped whatever. But at his age he lost his balance when pushed.

[Buffalo_Gal]

1 minute ago, Uncle Joe said:

After I broke my leg 5 years ago one of the key focus in PT was working on my balance. I still need to be careful doing physical chores due to losing my balance. That old man in the video lost his balance and then stumbled, tripped whatever. But at his age he lost his balance when pushed.

People are claiming the police lied/covered up what happened in the police report. I would have used the word stumbled, the police used the word tripped. 

I hope your leg heeled well.

[Wacka]

28 minutes ago, Bob in Mich said:

 

This incident in Buffalo demonstrates several of the reasons for widespread anger by the protesters.  Protesters claim:

 

-too often excess or careless force is used

-the other officers present  do not seem to correct the bad behavior

-the other police officers then lie in reports to cover for the excess

-without the videos the police version of events is assumed true

- this all results in a perception of a lack of accountability for bad police behavior. 

- covering for bad cops then too often results in future bad police behavior leading to undeserved citizen injuries and deaths

-in addition, trust in law enforcement overall then suffers

-lawsuits then follow, costing the taxpayers actual dollars 

 

So, how do we improve the accountability and the trust?  How do you empower officers to better control bad behavior in other officers?  How do you convince police unions that gains they perceive in covering for bad officers are lost many times over in the long run, as we see in the rioting?

The old hippie should have been home smoking ganga.

[Uncle Joe]

3 minutes ago, Buffalo_Gal said:

People are claiming the police lied/covered up what happened in the police report. I would have used the word stumbled, the police used the word tripped. 

I hope your leg heeled well.

I am still upright. I saw what Alex Smith went through so things definitely could have been worse,

[Buffalo_Gal]

2 minutes ago, Uncle Joe said:

I am still upright. I saw what Alex Smith went through so things definitely could have been worse,

Did you see how he came back!? I saw a video his wife posted a few months ago and wow, what an amazing recovery!  I hope you came back just as well.

Edited June 5, 2020 by Buffalo_Gal

[Uncle Joe]

Just now, Buffalo_Gal said:

Did you see how he came back!? I saw a video his wife posted a few months ago and wow, what an amazing recovery!  I hope you back just as well.

Yes and he should never play in the NFL again IMHO. 
I had 2 surgeries due to risk of infection so got lucky that it wasn't an issue post surgery. But I did have to hobble around with an x-fix for 2 weeks (Alex had a halo).
I was lucky to have a good emergency surgeon. I saw he also did Blazer center Jusuf Nurkic's leg surgery a year ago.

[Buffalo_Gal]

1 minute ago, Uncle Joe said:

Yes and he should never play in the NFL again IMHO. 
I had 2 surgeries due to risk of infection so got lucky that it wasn't an issue post surgery. But I did have to hobble around with an x-fix for 2 weeks (Alex had a halo).
I was lucky to have a good emergency surgeon. I saw he also did Blazer center Jusuf Nurkic's leg surgery a year ago.

 I agree he should never play football again.  Still, an amazing recovery story.

I am glad your surgeries went well for you, and that you had an excellent surgeon.

 

[bbb]

He's not a hippie.  He's a peace activist.  From Buffalo News breaking email:

 

BREAKING: Meet the man police pushed to the ground during protest in Niagara Square

The protester who was pushed to the ground by Buffalo police Thursday night in front of City Hall in a video seen by more than 11.5 million is a longtime peace activist from Amherst.

Martin Gugino, 75, was in serious but stable condition at Erie County Medical Center as of Thursday night, according to police.

"He’s a gentle person who really believes that he must stand up for what he thinks is right," said his friend Terrence Bisson, who has worked with Gugino on Latin American issues through the Western New York Peace Center.

"That’s why he went to the demonstration. He would never resist physically any kind of orders," Bisson said. "He’s a bit frail, not because of his age. He has some health problems."

Gugino grew up in Buffalo, moved to Cleveland where he worked in computer technology, before returning to Western New York where he has been involved in a broad array of issues ranging from nuclear disarmament to climate change and Guantanamo. He has a YouTube channel with 35 subscribers in which he discusses such issues.

[Wacka]

4 minutes ago, bbb said:

He's not a hippie.  He's a peace activist.  From Buffalo News breaking email:

 

BREAKING: Meet the man police pushed to the ground during protest in Niagara Square

The protester who was pushed to the ground by Buffalo police Thursday night in front of City Hall in a video seen by more than 11.5 million is a longtime peace activist from Amherst.

Martin Gugino, 75, was in serious but stable condition at Erie County Medical Center as of Thursday night, according to police.

"He’s a gentle person who really believes that he must stand up for what he thinks is right," said his friend Terrence Bisson, who has worked with Gugino on Latin American issues through the Western New York Peace Center.

"That’s why he went to the demonstration. He would never resist physically any kind of orders," Bisson said. "He’s a bit frail, not because of his age. He has some health problems."

Gugino grew up in Buffalo, moved to Cleveland where he worked in computer technology, before returning to Western New York where he has been involved in a broad array of issues ranging from nuclear disarmament to climate change and Guantanamo. He has a YouTube channel with 35 subscribers in which he discusses such issues.

Same thing. in my view  Peace activist=hippie. Got health problems? Why was he there?

[bbb]

6 minutes ago, Wacka said:

Same thing. in my view  Peace activist=hippie.

 

Yeah.  I meant that as a joke.  

[Wacka]

Sorry. Got so many brain dead libs coming put of the woodwork  like roaches being fumigated today, I   didn't look to see who it was.

[Koko78]

Few thoughts on this situation:

 

1.) You have to be a special kind of stupid to go up to a line of police in riot gear during a riot. Not clear what the guy was trying to do before he was shoved.

 

2.) "Tripped" is not an inaccurate description in the official reports, but it's not the most honest either.

 

3.) I do not believe that the officer intended to injure the guy when he shoved him back; the injury was a horrific accident.

 

4.) I think it was a good sign that the one officer did try to check on him, not sure why the other officer pulled him up and directed him forward (I do not know what the procedures, guidelines, and training are for riot situations.)

 

5.) The officer behind the front line did seem to immediately call for medical assistance.

 

6.) I would be disappointed, though not surprised, if the DA tries to jack the cop up on a felony. I think a criminal charge - especially Assault 2nd - would be hard to prove in this situation.

 

7.) What was going on that required the riot squad anyhow?

[Numark3]

13 hours ago, Buffalo_Gal said:

What would you expect them to be charged with?

 

He approached them, they told him to get away, he still approached, they pushed, he stumbled backwards and fell.

 

Leaving him there bleeding is where they were wrong, in my opinion. And the one cop pushing the other cop away was terrible. But, maybe neither were trained to help and the national guard guys were trained to help?
 

I will be curious what the law enforcement guys here will think of the incident, and what they think charges, if any, should be.

 

 

what is wrong with you.  It was an elderly man, maybe sometimes you shouldn’t push someone...

[Buffalo_Gal]

4 minutes ago, Crayola64 said:

what is wrong with you.  It was an elderly man, maybe sometimes you shouldn’t push someone...

What is wrong with you? Someone should know better than to approach a line of riot police.  You may want to watch the second video.


 

[B-Man]

 

 

Doesn't intent count for anything ?

 

The policeman should NOT have pushed the guy, even if he shouldn't have been there.

 

But, I certainly do not see any intent to injure him.......................It is nothing like the murder in Minneapolis

 

 

 

 

[Warren Zevon]

1 hour ago, Koko78 said:

7.) What was going on that required the riot squad anyhow?

 

Fantastic question. There were less than a dozen people protesting according to Channel 4 

[Wacka]

1 hour ago, Koko78 said:

Few thoughts on this situation:

 

7.) What was going on that required the riot squad anyhow?

It was 8 PM, the start of the curfew  and they were clearing Niagara Square, The guy is a "oeace activist" (old hippie).