Protest in Buffalo

[Buffalo_Gal]

1 hour ago, GregPersons said:

 

I've watched it. And I agree with you to a point. I just can't agree that it was his fault, or that he was asking for it. 

 

I understand he was disobeying. It doesn't make it okay. He didn't stumble on his own. He was pushed. 

 

We need to remember that the law can be wrong; orders can be wrong. These are not written by God. These are man-made decisions. And when -- the next day -- almost 60 Buffalo cops then decide to strike, to spite the (very minor!) punishment placed on the officers -- and then defend their actions with literal Nazi quotes...

 

I know people want to say Nazi comparisons are way out of bounds. But they ***** said "We're just following orders." Buffalo Gal, that is the exact defense used by Nazis in the Nuremberg Trials.

 

Here's a harder pill to swallow. We have more in common with Nazi Germany than we'd ever care to admit. Am I wrong? Sure, they're totally different, right? Nothing alike. I mean Nazi Germany happened in a different longitude & latitude, the minorities being persecuted were different, the specifics on the arrests and imprisonments and executions were different, it was a different year, and it's all in black & white photos. It couldn't possibly be us.

 

So what do we have in common? Only that both the US and Nazi Germany have systemically, to numbers unseen before or elsewhere in the world, imprisoned and executed minority populations with state-sanctioned legal lawful orders. 

 

I know you're going to want to dismiss this!! But just take a minute with it and imagine a history 100 years from now. Imagine if the police could be rebooted into a less destructive and far more peaceful enterprise. Imagine the future looking back on this time, the way maybe we look back on slavery or public lynchings, and think "how did they ever stand for this?"

 

 

Nazi Germany: un-arm the people, media propaganda,  sow seeds of social disorder, control the churches,  ... yeah, sounds like something  the radical left might embrace.

And since this conversation has devolved into something that has nothing to do with this thread, you have a nice day.  ?



 

Edited June 6, 2020 by Buffalo_Gal

[GregPersons]

9 minutes ago, Buffalo_Gal said:

Nazi Germany: un-arm the people, media propaganda,  sew seeds of social disorder, control the churches,  ... yeah, sounds like something  the radical left might embrace.

And since this conversation has devolved into something that has nothing to do with this thread, you have a nice day.  ?

 

No problem, just one quick question before you go (this is all entirely on topic for the protests in Buffalo btw). Agree/disagree — America systemically imprisons/executes minorities with state violence? 

 

Feel free to ask me to provide examples!

Edited June 6, 2020 by GregPersons

[B-Man]

[Buffalo_Gal]

9 minutes ago, GregPersons said:

 

No problem, just one quick question before you go (this is all entirely on topic for the protests in Buffalo btw). Agree/disagree — America systemically imprisons/executes minorities with state violence? 

 

Feel free to ask me to provide examples!

 

While I do not have a criminal justice background, I will tell you one of my son's master's degrees is in criminal justice. I had to proof read all his papers. In that short time I read more about "justice" in our criminal system than I ever thought I would. There is no doubt there are issues and problems - for minorities and whites. Ask any 20 year old male - regardless of color - how often  he's been pulled over by the police or had an encounter with a police officer. Now some of that is "young men do stupid things" and some of that is the numbers show that young men do stupid things.

Is there a systematic imprisonment and systematic execution of minorities by the government. No. That would be a conspiracy theory to end all conspiracy theories. Here is the definition of the word systematic just so you are clear about what you are alleging.

 

Are there reasons that minorities end up in state prisons (sorry, I have to use wiki or list 50 states, which I will not do) more than than federal prisons where the majority are whites? Yes, and that has to to with crimes committed.  Plea deals vs trials also account for some disparities, and that would be something you would have to dive into with attorney representation and prosecutors.

Trump's first step act has helped minorities incarcerated for unequal offenses (like crack (minority drug) drawing a higher sentence than cocaine (white drug)).

 

[GregPersons]

5 minutes ago, Buffalo_Gal said:

 

While I do not have a criminal justice background, I will tell you one of my son's master's degrees is in criminal justice. I had to proof read all his papers. In that short time I read more about "justice" in our criminal system than I ever thought I would. There is no doubt there are issues and problems - for minorities and whites. Ask any 20 year old male - regardless of color - how often  he's been pulled over by the police or had an encounter with a police officer. Now some of that is "young men do stupid things" and some of that is the numbers show that young men do stupid things.

Is there a systematic imprisonment and systematic execution of minorities by the government. No. That would be a conspiracy theory to end all conspiracy theories. Here is the definition of the word systematic just so you are clear about what you are alleging.

 

Are there reasons that minorities end up in state prisons (sorry, I have to use wiki or list 50 states, which I will not do) more than than federal prisons where the majority are whites? Yes, and that has to to with crimes committed.  Plea deals vs trials also account for some disparities, and that would be something you would have to dive into with attorney representation and prosecutors.

Trump's first step act has helped minorities incarcerated for unequal offenses (like crack (minority drug) drawing a higher sentence than cocaine (white drug)).
 

 

It's not a conspiracy theory. Systemic or systematic's definition — Done or acting according to a fixed plan or system; methodical.

 

Three major obvious examples of the state systemically imprisoning minorities:

Slavery.

For-Profit Prisons.

ICE Detention Camps. 

 

Three major obvious examples of the state systemically executing minorities: 

Slavery. 

Officer-Involved Shooting.

For-Profit Prisons.

 

The school-to-prison pipeline is a death sentence given to Black children because of underfunded schools and services in favor of absurd police budgets.

 

This is for Los Angeles budget, but this is largely true for most cities. The police, like the military in the federal budget, take more money than any other program/s combined.  Garcetti promised a cut. What a joke.

 

[Reality Check]

17 minutes ago, GregPersons said:

 

It's not a conspiracy theory. Systemic or systematic's definition — Done or acting according to a fixed plan or system; methodical.

 

Three major obvious examples of the state systemically imprisoning minorities:

Slavery.

For-Profit Prisons.

ICE Detention Camps. 

 

Three major obvious examples of the state systemically executing minorities: 

Slavery. 

Officer-Involved Shooting.

For-Profit Prisons.

 

The school-to-prison pipeline is a death sentence given to Black children because of underfunded schools and services in favor of absurd police budgets.

 

This is for Los Angeles budget, but this is largely true for most cities. The police, like the military in the federal budget, take more money than any other program/s combined.  Garcetti promised a cut. What a joke.

 

Why are so many black people being killed by black people?

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

7 minutes ago, Reality Check said:

Why are so many black people being killed by black people?

 

...I'm going to float an unsubstantiated guess and it is NOT just applicable to black on black murders.....I think somewhere there is street supremacy and/or turf wars in play....a toddler murdered in Chicago as retribution for a mano a mano squabble?....can it get any lower?....bottom line is with some no matter of race, creed or ethnicity, depraved indifference to human life exists daily.......WORLDWIDE I may add..............

[Warren Zevon]

3 hours ago, Wacka said:

If they got their asses out of there by 8 PM, fine. If they had a permit, fine. Otherwise, the cops have every right to use force ro clear the lawbreakers out. I personally  demonstrated for  Bush  after the 2000 election in downtown San Francisco. The group I was with got a permit which outlined the route we wanted to take.  We had the police escort us ( which in SF was for our safety). An anti-fur demonstrator (happened to nr the dome day in Union  Square) spit on an elderly member of our group  (had him arrested) snf daw numerous fingers (thank you, Bush is #1), When we were done  we gave the cops three cheers.

 

Where was this high horse when right wingers were breaking the law with their protests a few weeks ago during the pandemic?

[B-Man]

7 minutes ago, Warren Zevon said:

 

Where was this high horse when right wingers were breaking the law with their protests a few weeks ago during the pandemic?

 

 

They weren't.

 

Guns were allowed on the state capital building and it was a peaceful protest.

 

 

But you knew that.

 

 

 

[Unforgiven]

1 hour ago, GregPersons said:

 

I've watched it. And I agree with you to a point. I just can't agree that it was his fault, or that he was asking for it. 

 

I understand he was disobeying. It doesn't make it okay. He didn't stumble on his own. He was pushed. 

 

We need to remember that the law can be wrong; orders can be wrong. These are not written by God. These are man-made decisions. And when -- the next day -- almost 60 Buffalo cops then decide to strike, to spite the (very minor!) punishment placed on the officers -- and then defend their actions with literal Nazi quotes...

 

I know people want to say Nazi comparisons are way out of bounds. But they ***** said "We're just following orders." Buffalo Gal, that is the exact defense used by Nazis in the Nuremberg Trials.

 

Here's a harder pill to swallow. We have more in common with Nazi Germany than we'd ever care to admit. Am I wrong? Sure, they're totally different, right? Nothing alike. I mean Nazi Germany happened in a different longitude & latitude, the minorities being persecuted were different, the specifics on the arrests and imprisonments and executions were different, it was a different year, and it's all in black & white photos. It couldn't possibly be us.

 

So what do we have in common? Only that both the US and Nazi Germany have systemically, to numbers unseen before or elsewhere in the world, imprisoned and executed minority populations with state-sanctioned legal lawful orders. 

 

I know you're going to want to dismiss this!! But just take a minute with it and imagine a history 100 years from now. Imagine if the police could be rebooted into a less destructive and far more peaceful enterprise. Imagine the future looking back on this time, the way maybe we look back on slavery or public lynchings, and think "how did they ever stand for this?"

 

 

I disagree completely with this. The liberals are trying to make 'whites' the villains that have economically, and racially ruined the country and other peoples lives.

This is exactly the early propaganda used against the Jewish population.

[GregPersons]

9 minutes ago, Unforgiven said:

I disagree completely with this. The liberals are trying to make 'whites' the villains that have economically, and racially ruined the country and other peoples lives.

This is exactly the early propaganda used against the Jewish population.

 

Who invented slavery?

Who invented for profit prisons?

Who invented ICE?

Who invented Slave Catcher patrols? Are you aware how this impacted modern policing in the US?

 

White people need to nut up and take some PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY for their peoples' actions.

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

...justice served...it takes time.....so now Parsnips or whoever the hell he is can untangle his racial nylons?.....

Prosecutors: 2 Buffalo police officers charged with assault

WHECTV
Updated: June 06, 2020 11:51 AM
Created: June 06, 2020 11:43 AM

BUFFALO, N.Y. (AP) - Two Buffalo police officers were charged with assault Saturday, prosecutors said after a video showed them shoving a protester in recent demonstrations over the death of George Floyd in Minnesota. 

 

Both pleaded not guilty to second-degree assault. They were released without bail.

 

The officers had been suspended without pay Friday after a TV crew captured the confrontation the night before near the end of protests. 

The footage shows a man identified as Martin Gugino approaching a line of helmeted officers holding batons as they clear demonstrators from Niagara Square around the time of an 8 p.m. curfew.

 

https://www.whec.com/news/prosecutors-2-buffalo-police-officers-charged-with-assault/5752722/?cat=565

 

[Warren Zevon]

20 minutes ago, B-Man said:

 

 

They weren't.

 

Guns were allowed on the state capital building and it was a peaceful protest.

 

 

But you knew that.

 

 

 

 

They were. Wacka is mad peaceful protestors disobeyed curfew. The peaceful protestors spitting and screaming in the face of cops in Michigan disobeyed by not wearing a mask or  social distancing. 

[Beast]

6 minutes ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said:

...justice served...it takes time.....so now Parsnips or whoever the hell he is can untangle his racial nylons?.....

Prosecutors: 2 Buffalo police officers charged with assault

WHECTV
Updated: June 06, 2020 11:51 AM
Created: June 06, 2020 11:43 AM

BUFFALO, N.Y. (AP) - Two Buffalo police officers were charged with assault Saturday, prosecutors said after a video showed them shoving a protester in recent demonstrations over the death of George Floyd in Minnesota. 

 

Both pleaded not guilty to second-degree assault. They were released without bail.

 

The officers had been suspended without pay Friday after a TV crew captured the confrontation the night before near the end of protests. 

The footage shows a man identified as Martin Gugino approaching a line of helmeted officers holding batons as they clear demonstrators from Niagara Square around the time of an 8 p.m. curfew.

 

https://www.whec.com/news/prosecutors-2-buffalo-police-officers-charged-with-assault/5752722/?cat=565

 

 

I can trll you right now that DA overcharged.

 

IF any charge was appropriate it was Assault Third Degree. Again, IF.

 

 

[B-Man]

13 minutes ago, GregPersons said:

 

Who invented slavery?

 

White people need to nut up and take some PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY for their peoples' actions.

 

 

And..................you have exposed yourself.

 

 

Claiming that whites "invented"  slavery.......................is a statement devoid of any knowledge or understanding.

 

 

 

I do not block any posters, no matter what poor level of posts they have, but I certainly don't need to pay attention to the constant repetition of your biases .

 

 

 

 

 

 

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

8 minutes ago, Beast said:

 

I can trll you right now that DA overcharged.

 

IF any charge was appropriate it was Assault Third Degree. Again, IF.

 

 

 

...possible......I do know from WC cases in NYS that insurance companies fear cases being brought in Buffalo versus elsewhere...they will tell you they fear the liberal nature of the Buffalo courts.....and they fear for Celino & Barnes cases for the same reasons.....so the District Appeals Court is a consideration unless it goes to the NYS level....

Edited June 6, 2020 by OldTimeAFLGuy

[Deranged Rhino]

2 hours ago, GregPersons said:

 

Why is it unreasonable to expect police officers to behave peacefully?

 

Says the guy who claimed earlier property damage does not = violence  

 

Gtfoh

[GregPersons]

Just now, Deranged Rhino said:

 

Says the guy who claimed earlier property damage does not = violence  

 

Gtfoh

 

Go ahead and make the argument that property damage is the same as human violence.

 

Let's hear it.

 

Tell me that store windows have the same value as human life. You complete ***** stain. 

[Deranged Rhino]

Just now, GregPersons said:

 

Go ahead and make the argument that property damage is the same as human violence.

 

Oh, look at that. Intellectual dishonesty 101. Add a new word to the equation to try to run away from his original point. 

 

 

1 minute ago, GregPersons said:

Tell me that store windows have the same value as human life. You complete ***** stain. 

 

If you don't think property destruction is violence, why don't you give the board your license plate number and let us all go to town on your car at the next Bills game? 

[GregPersons]

2 minutes ago, Deranged Rhino said:

 

Oh, look at that. Intellectual dishonesty 101. Add a new word to the equation to try to run away from his original point. 

 

 

 

If you don't think property destruction is violence, why don't you give the board your license plate number and let us all go to town on your car at the next Bills game? 

 

Did you not assume "human" was implied by violence in this instance?? You were all excited for a semantics battle?????

 

Holy *****, get a problem!

[Deranged Rhino]

Just now, GregPersons said:

 

Did you not assume "human" was implied by violence in this instance?? You were all excited for a semantics battle?????

 

Holy *****, get a problem!

 

It's a meaningless addition made by a weak mind. 

 

Destruction of property = violence. If it does not, we no longer live in a land of laws. The fact that you support this notion, without any understanding of its historical origin, shows the board how deeply uninformed you are of basic history. 

 

Keep going. You're doing an excellent job of exposing yourself as a deeply stupid person. Then again, you're a Marxist -- an ideology that's been thoroughly discredited yet you're clinging to it (unknowingly) like a good useless idiot. 

[SectionC3]

30 minutes ago, Beast said:

 

I can trll you right now that DA overcharged.

 

IF any charge was appropriate it was Assault Third Degree. Again, IF.

 

 

Yeah I agree.  Intent to cause physical injury is part of that charge, right?  (I could look it

up, but not into doing that two minutes of work now.) I just don’t see it.  I suspect assault third is a lesser includes of this assault charge, as might be harassment.  Maybe they get torgalski on a lesser as part of a compromise.  Charging McCabe with assault second based on what I’ve seen is ... odd.  I like John Flynn A LOT.  But this is not right. 

[Beast]

1 hour ago, SectionC3 said:

Yeah I agree.  Intent to cause physical injury is part of that charge, right?  (I could look it

up, but not into doing that two minutes of work now.) I just don’t see it.  I suspect assault third is a lesser includes of this assault charge, as might be harassment.  Maybe they get torgalski on a lesser as part of a compromise.  Charging McCabe with assault second based on what I’ve seen is ... odd.  I like John Flynn A LOT.  But this is not right. 

 

Correct. The only subdivision under Felony Assault that is not with intent is to recklessly cause serious physical injury with a deadly weapon or dangerous instrument. The dangerous instrument, which I suspect they were charged under, is a STRETCH of epic proportions. He was pushed back with a riot stick, which is what they are made for. If this is truly a crime, lets say the old man didn't fall. Would those officers have been charged? Of course not! Would the DA have charged them with attempted Assault 2nd Degree? Of course not!  

 

And, lets be honest, I watched that and my stomach turned because it was a 75 year old man. Taking emotions out of it, would we be having this conversation if the man was in his 30's, 40's or even 50's? I think we can all say no. The age of the man is the reasonn we are here, as well as what happened in Minneapolis. Nowhere in the statutes that covers this is age a reason to charge. Only if intent can be shown and I'm pretty damned sure we can all agree gbere was no intent to injure.

 

The man got pushed back, lost his balance, and hit his head. He made the concsious decision to approach those officers and impede them from moving forward. It's not like the officer took his riot stick and clubbed the man over the head with it. 

 

I suspect these officers will be indicted and then beat any and all charges at trial.

Edited June 6, 2020 by Beast

[Koko78]

1 hour ago, Beast said:

 

Correct. The only subdivision under Felony Assault that is not with intent is to recklessly cause serious physical injury with a deadly weapon or dangerous instrument. The dangerous instrument, which I suspect they were charged under, is a STRETCH of epic proportions. He was pushed back with a riot stick, which is what they are made for. If this is truly a crime, lets say yhe okd man didn't fall. Would thise officers have been charged? Of course not! Would ghe DA have charged them with attempted Assault 2nd Degree? Of course not!  

 

And, lets be honest, I watched that and my stomach turned because it was a 75 year old man. Taking emotions out of it, would we be having this conversation if the man was in his 30's, 40's or even 50's? I think we can all say no.

 

The man got pushed back, lost his balance, and hit his head. He made the concsious decision to approach those officers and impede them from moving forward. It's not like the officer took his riot stick and clubbed the man over the head with it. 

 

I suspect these officers will be indicted and then beat any and all charges at trial.

 

My best guess (without seeing the accusatory instruments) is that the "dangerous instrument" is the sidewalk. I've seen Assault 2nd charged that way before.

[Reality Check]

2 hours ago, GregPersons said:

 

Did you not assume "human" was implied by violence in this instance?? You were all excited for a semantics battle?????

 

Holy *****, get a problem!

What is your solution to black on black violence?

[Beast]

20 minutes ago, Koko78 said:

 

My best guess (without seeing the accusatory instruments) is that the "dangerous instrument" is the sidewalk. I've seen Assault 2nd charged that way before.

 

That's also a wicked stretch. I mean, they didn't recklessly use the sidewalk to injure him. 

Edited June 6, 2020 by Beast

[Reality Check]

https://www.zerohedge.com/political/buffalo-cops-who-shoved-elderly-protester-charged-felony-assault-mayor-calls-man-agitator

[GaryPinC]

19 hours ago, Chef Jim said:

 

No.  You don't talk to him and tell him to move on. This isn't some drunk guy approaching them in the beer tent at the county fair  Cops are getting pelted with rocks, bottles, bricks and shot at.  And keeping the line moving is all they SHOULD be caring about.  That is their job at this point.  I've never done this so I can't speak for them regarding the tension these guys felt and feel these days and I highly suggest you don't either.   And that is common sense.  

 

They were clearing the square of some, as  you referred to him as,  jackhole.  

Except they weren't getting pelted by anything in this situation, they weren't under that kind of stress at all.  Stop imagining the worst case scenario and use some common sense that fits the situation.  In a different situation, simply pushing the guy out of the way would be more acceptable.  I think most of America would rather have those policemen who care about more than just blindly and over-aggressively following orders.  This isn't some drunk guy approaching, it's an old man who is not being threatening to police, just a bit of a self absorbed jackhole. 

This is the kind of police crap that needs to get dialed down.  Either arrest him or work with him a bit to get him to move on.  Unfortunate you cannot see that, most others can.

[ALF]

A elderly harmless man , just go around him 

 

Focus on looters and rioters instead of peaceful demonstrators 

Edited June 6, 2020 by ALF

[SectionC3]

2 hours ago, Koko78 said:

 

My best guess (without seeing the accusatory instruments) is that the "dangerous instrument" is the sidewalk. I've seen Assault 2nd charged that way before.

I don’t think there’s a dangerous instrument issue here.   I suspect this is the “elder assault” statue, which I think requires internet to cause physical injury and incorporates the age criteria.  If McCabe was charged this way, it’s a joke.   Torgalski is a reach on this one bc if the intent issue.  Maybe they get torgalski on assault 3 or harassment.  But assault 2 is reachy. 

[Nanker]

35 minutes ago, ALF said:

A elderly harmless man , just go around him 

 

Focus on looters and rioters instead of peaceful demonstrators 

It’s okay Alf. Just think of it as a botched 257th trimester abortion. It is after all New York State where that sort of thing is celebrated with colorful floodlights on the Empire State Building. 
 

The old douche will be getting a big fat payday from the city eventually, and taxpayers won’t even notice a blip in their tax bill. 

[ALF]

I don't see any intent to harm by either officer . It looked like the supervisor behind one officer pushed him into the man to move him back. You just don't treat elderly like someone younger.

[Chef Jim]

59 minutes ago, GaryPinC said:

Except they weren't getting pelted by anything in this situation, they weren't under that kind of stress at all.  Stop imagining the worst case scenario and use some common sense that fits the situation.  In a different situation, simply pushing the guy out of the way would be more acceptable.  I think most of America would rather have those policemen who care about more than just blindly and over-aggressively following orders.  This isn't some drunk guy approaching, it's an old man who is not being threatening to police, just a bit of a self absorbed jackhole. 

This is the kind of police crap that needs to get dialed down.  Either arrest him or work with him a bit to get him to move on.  Unfortunate you cannot see that, most others can.

 

Ahhhh so you were monitoring their stress levels.   You ARE clairvoyant.  Cool.  

7 minutes ago, ALF said:

I don't see any intent to harm by either officer . It looked like the supervisor behind one officer pushed him into the man to move him back. You just don't treat elderly like someone younger.

 

Why not?

50 minutes ago, ALF said:

A elderly harmless man , just go around him 

 

Focus on looters and rioters instead of peaceful demonstrators 

 

At what age does harmlessness set in?  

[Beast]

2 hours ago, Koko78 said:

 

My best guess (without seeing the accusatory instruments) is that the "dangerous instrument" is the sidewalk. I've seen Assault 2nd charged that way before.

Koko...just went for a walk and was thinking about what you said. I definitely could see that being charged if they were on top of him and banged his head of the concrete. I just can’t see how it could be applied to the facts as we know them.

 

But nothing would surprise me anymore. Thank God for a court of Appeals and case law.

[ALF]

10 minutes ago, Chef Jim said:

 

 

At what age does harmlessness set in?  

 

Anyone peaceful any age leave them alone

[Chef Jim]

1 minute ago, ALF said:

 

Anyone peaceful any age leave them alone

 

What determines peaceful intent if not age?

 

And I'm not saying age does BTW 

Edited June 6, 2020 by Chef Jim

[Buffalo_Gal]

1 hour ago, ALF said:

A elderly harmless man , just go around him 

 

Focus on looters and rioters instead of peaceful demonstrators 

While I generally agree with you, think about the last 10 days. These "peaceful protests" turned to  rioting and looting PDQ. These were riot police clearing out downtown. Do not approach! There is a curfew, go home.

As for the elderly being harmless ... until they are not. That is where the audio may come in handy.

"harmless" 93 year old.
 

 

[Uncle Joe]

47 minutes ago, Buffalo_Gal said:

While I generally agree with you, think about the last 10 days. These "peaceful protests" turned to  rioting and looting PDQ. These were riot police clearing out downtown. Do not approach! There is a curfew, go home.

As for the elderly being harmless ... until they are not. That is where the audio may come in handy.

"harmless" 93 year old.
 

 

Good find, I remember this one. Talk him down, amirite?

[Beast]

2 hours ago, ALF said:

A elderly harmless man , just go around him 

 

Focus on looters and rioters instead of peaceful demonstrators 

 

Yes, Go around him and have your back to him. Smart tactics.

[SectionC3]

2 hours ago, Nanker said:

It’s okay Alf. Just think of it as a botched 257th trimester abortion. It is after all New York State where that sort of thing is celebrated with colorful floodlights on the Empire State Building. 
 

The old douche will be getting a big fat payday from the city eventually, and taxpayers won’t even notice a blip in their tax bill. 

Why is he a douche?