Minority HC or GM could improve team’s draft position with new proposed resolution

[mjt328]

1 minute ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Honestly, it’s hard conversation to have if you’re aren’t a minority.  It’s going to be hard to fully get it.  Same way that a minority shouldn’t think every white person is racist because they are against affirmative action.  It would be great to think every person is given an equal shot to succeed in America but it’s simply not true.  And In sport where you’re the majority of the population and you’re still not getting the leadership jobs, it kinda sucks.  
 

It’s  a tough conversation 

 

It shouldn't be a tough conversation.

 

We should be teaching our children to judge everyone based on the content of their character.  Not based on the color of their skin.  Period.

I fully understand that as a society (meaning the U.S.), we have a terrible history regarding race.  And we still aren't where we need to be. 

 

But many of the solutions being proposed (Rooney Rule, Affirmative Action, Diversity Initiatives), are NOT working and are actually doing more to divide us.

Instead of encouraging an employer to NOT see skin color, and instead see character when making a hire... these ideas encourage ONLY seeing skin color, or at least making it one of the primary factors.

 

If I was of a minority race, I wouldn't want an employer to just hire me because they needed to hit a quota.  I would want to live in a society where my skills and qualifications were the driving force behind me getting the job.

 

[formerlyofCtown]

3 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

I think it’s a great back and forth.  If you are minority who struggled to get your foot in the door for so long in this country, you would take every opportunity you have to get ahead.  If you are a white man, it sucks to lose on an opportunity that you are more than qualified for because of your skin color.  
 

Why does Matt Patricia get 3 years while Steve Wilkes gets one and will never get again?  

Because he sucked.

Marvin Lewis got a long tenure. 

Bad coaches get fired.  Good coaches get retained.

Edited May 15, 2020 by formerlyofCtown

[KD in CA]

I wonder what other "correct" behavior they should start rewarding.

 

Maybe teams should start at their own 15 after a touchback if the owner isn't vocal enough about climate change or curing AIDS in Africa.

[whatdrought]

4 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

I think it’s a great back and forth.  If you are minority who struggled to get your foot in the door for so long in this country, you would take every opportunity you have to get ahead.  If you are a white man, it sucks to lose on an opportunity that you are more than qualified for because of your skin color.  
 

Why does Matt Patricia get 3 years while Steve Wilkes gets one and will never get again?  

It sucks to lose out on an opportunity based on your skin color. No matter what color it is. Let’s talk about those who are, and deal with specifics. 
 

Cause the Lions are idiots and the NFL values BB castoffs. Why did Todd Bowels get so many years and Pat Shurmur only got two across town? I’m not gonna argue Patricia should still have a job, in fact you can likely find my posts stating the opposite. Are you gonna argue that Wilkes objectively deserved more than 1 year? 
 

Here’s A question: why did Josh Rosen get 1 year before being replaced by a black QB while Dwayne Haskins is getting a second year?

Edited May 15, 2020 by whatdrought

[C.Biscuit97]

Just now, HappyDays said:

 

I don't know, I feel like if any institution in America is insulted from racism it's the NFL. There is already an incentive to hire the best candidate for the job - win more games, make more money. Many coaches started out as players and obviously there are more enough black players that could follow that track. If the point is that there's too much nepotism in the NFL, of course there is. I just don't think this solves that problem. I'd like to see some examples of qualified black candidates that didn't get interviewed or hired as well. The NFL is too competitive for teams to be making racist hiring decisions.

But it’s so subjective.  Mike Tomlin might not have been a shot if the Steelers didn’t hire him.  Eric Bienenemy (sp) had about as good of a resume of any coach on the market this year.  
 

a scrub like Pat Shurmur has gotten 2 head coaching jobs and went 19-46.  His uncle was a former nfl DC.  Who’s to say a minority coach won’t have done better if given those chances. 

[artmalibu]

12% of the nation is black and 9% of the nfl coaches are black.  

[C.Biscuit97]

2 minutes ago, whatdrought said:

It sucks to lose out on an opportunity based on your skin color. No matter what color it is. Let’s talk about those who are, and deal with specifics. 
 

Cause the Lions are idiots and the NFL values BB castoffs. Why did Todd Bowels get so many years and Pat Shurmur only got two across town? I’m not gonna argue Patricia should still have a job, in fact you can likely find my posts stating the opposite. Are you gonna argue that Wilkes objectively deserved more than 1 year? 

I just brought up Pat Shurmur and his 19-46 record in his second head coaching stint!  
 

I gotta go but I respect the conversation.  When threads like this come up and how background of this board is, I know how it’s going to go.  But the thing that has gotten lost in this country is you can disagree with someone but still respect them. Have a good one. 

1 minute ago, artmalibu said:

12% of the nation is black and 9% of the nfl coaches are black.  

This is very lazy. 

Edited May 15, 2020 by C.Biscuit97

[Cruiserplayer]

How many MLB GMs are Dominican?

[RyanC883]

This is a terrible idea for a number of reasons, also likely illegal.  

 

But, I’m all in favor of removing the anti-tampering rule.  

[artmalibu]

1 minute ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

I just brought up Pat Shurmur and his 19-46 record in his second head coaching stint!  
 

I gotta go but I respect the conversation.  Have a good one. 

This is very lazy. 

 

Really? Why is that?

[HappyDays]

1 minute ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Mike Tomlin might not have been a shot if the Steelers didn’t hire him.

 

Is this supposed to make sense? If the thing that happened didn't happen, you would be right? Help me out here.

[whatdrought]

1 minute ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

I just brought up Pat Shurmur and his 19-46 record in his second head coaching stint!  
 

I gotta go but I respect the conversation.  Have a good one. 

This is very lazy. 

Shurmur got hired because he’s a very well respected OC and some could argue his rep is better than KC’s guy (can’t ever spell his name) because he calls plays and doesn’t work for one of the best offensive minds in history. 
 

The real issue here is that hindsight is being used to evaluate things. Show me the clear example of a minority candidate who was objectively more qualified getting passed over for a white candidate. 

[Gugny]

13 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Has anyone pointed out that the people voting on this (the owners) could instead just hire more black coaches and personnel people instead of passing a stupid rule like this?

 

I really think the actual problem needs to be clearly identified.

 

If the most highly-qualified candidates for HC or GM are being overlooked, we need to know why.  There could be white candidates being overlooked due to nepotism.  Or - at the very worst - black candidates being overlooked due to racism.  I don't think we know that.

 

I'd like to know how Arizona landed on Kliff Kingsbury as their guy.  He was a horrible college HC with exactly 0 days' experience in the NFL in a coaching capacity of any kind.  How does that happen????

 

[whatdrought]

2 minutes ago, RyanC883 said:

But, I’m all in favor of removing the anti-tampering rule.  

I agree. That’s getting glossed over in all this, but it’s a really good decision. 

[C.Biscuit97]

Just now, artmalibu said:

 

Really? Why is that?

70% of the nfl is black.  It’s not the rest of the US population.  You don’t think any of those 70% over the years were qualified to have a leadership job?  

[HappyDays]

4 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

a scrub like Pat Shurmur has gotten 2 head coaching jobs and went 19-46.  His uncle was a former nfl DC.  Who’s to say a minority coach won’t have done better if given those chances. 

 

So are you saying if the NFL gave higher draft position to minority coaches, Pat Shurmur wouldn't have gotten a job? If the racism is so ingrained I have a hard time believing that would make a difference. Frankly I don't think any amount of incentive will make NFL executives hire people that they don't believe to be the best candidate. It won't solve anything, it will just create a lot of pointless resentment. And now every black coach who's hired has that "were they only hired for draft picks?" hanging over their head. I'm good with the way things are. Again - I haven't seen a single example of a qualified black candidate that didn't get a shot.

[C.Biscuit97]

2 minutes ago, whatdrought said:

Shurmur got hired because he’s a very well respected OC and some could argue his rep is better than KC’s guy (can’t ever spell his name) because he calls plays and doesn’t work for one of the best offensive minds in history. 
 

The real issue here is that hindsight is being used to evaluate things. Show me the clear example of a minority candidate who was objectively more qualified getting passed over for a white candidate. 

But that’s the whole point?  How can you if more aren’t given the chance?  Look in Miami.  Sadly, they seemed to have rebuilt one of worst teams in a long time in one year.  
 

And Shurmur sucked in Clelveland and he sucked in NJ.  He’s a terrible head coach who has gotten multiple chances.  

[whatdrought]

Just now, C.Biscuit97 said:

But that’s the whole point?  How can you if more aren’t given the chance?  Look in Miami.  Sadly, they seemed to have rebuilt one of worst teams in a long time in one year.  
 

And Shurmur sucked in Clelveland and he sucked in NJ.  He’s a terrible head coach who has gotten multiple chances.  

Who Biscuit? Whose this dynamite minority coach getting passed over time and again? The KC coordinator who comes from the same spot as Doug Peterson (SB winner) and Matt Nagy (seemingly a flop)? Flip a coin about which one he’ll be. 
 

Everyone sucked in Cleveland and his re-hiring was because he had once again shown himself to be a top 5-10 offensive coordinator after the Cleveland gig. I’m not saying he was the right hire, but you can’t say that at the time he was the wrong one. That’s hindsight and revisionist. 

[KD in CA]

To believe in any of this nonsense, you'd have to believe an owner would prioritize skin color over the success of his billion dollar investment.

 

And if you believe that, you clearly have never met anyone who has a billion dollar investment.

[artmalibu]

6 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

70% of the nfl is black.  It’s not the rest of the US population.  You don’t think any of those 70% over the years were qualified to have a leadership job?  

 

So, when its viewed that blacks are not fairly represented thats a problem.  70 % of the NFL is black and thats ok? 

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

1 hour ago, YoloinOhio said:

 

https://www.nfl.com/news/nfl-to-present-new-resolutions-to-rooney-rule

 

What the actual hell?

 

[Just Joshin']

50 minutes ago, KD in CA said:

I'm so old I remember when we aspired to be a 'color-blind' society.

So if they don't vote for it will they be called a racist?

[whatdrought]

Look at each position that was filled that Bienemmy (sp?) was passed over for: 

 

Giants- went with judge trying to avoid repeating the offensive guru mistakes they made back to back.

 

Panthers- Rhule was the sexy college guy who everyone wanted. 
 

Redskins- minority on minority crime?

 

Cowboys- Probably the best argument here, but Jones was never going to hire a first time HC. McCarthy made a ton of sense there. 
 

Browns- another good argument here, but my guess is it came down to style. Plus, they hired a black gm, so does their draft spot go up?

 

Which one of these are clearly less qualified and a worse fit than EB? Someone enlighten me.

[C.Biscuit97]

Just now, whatdrought said:

Who Biscuit? Whose this dynamite minority coach getting passed over time and again? The KC coordinator who comes from the same spot as Doug Peterson (SB winner) and Matt Nagy (seemingly a flop)? Flip a coin about which one he’ll be. 
 

Everyone sucked in Cleveland and his re-hiring was because he had once again shown himself to be a top 5-10 offensive coordinator after the Cleveland gig. I’m not saying he was the right hire, but you can’t say that at the time he was the wrong one. That’s hindsight and revisionist. 

The coach who was terrible in Cleveland was terrible in NJ.  It’s not revisionist to think a bad head coach would be bad again.  It’s like expecting Johnny Manziel to be good on another team.  But he was given 2 shots at it before people get 1.

 

and the whole point is there aren’t enough in the positions to get the opportunity!  How many minority coordinators are there?  
 

another good example is Rick Smith.  He built a Texans team that makes the playoffs every year.  He gets fired because he doesn’t get along with BOB who has been an absolute disaster as a GM. He’s out of the league. Jerry Reese built SB Giants teams and he was never given another shot.  

[whatdrought]

5 minutes ago, KD in CA said:

To believe in any of this nonsense, you'd have to believe an owner would prioritize skin color over the success of his billion dollar investment.

 

And if you believe that, you clearly have never met anyone who has a billion dollar investment.

 

what if I don’t believe it, but I haven’t met such a person? Does that make me seem naive?

[scuba guy]

I went to ecc city campus for engineering trans to rit

 

Got 3 scholarships great grades

1 was heop 7k rit was at the time on quarters 10 weeks 2 week of school was called in to the financial aid office lost my scholarship, was told I did not qualify

I asked how did i get it in the first place

( I was told all in my first name) it was a mistake.

I had to get 3 jobs on campus to pay for the mix up nobody really cared was almost kicked out of school because I could not pay the access money.

 

Fast forward to graduation got a great job lay off 2 months later (Gulf war)

Interviewed for 5 jobs in the roch was told at last job interview I did not fit in with the quote a 100 employees need a minority hire.  I asked what she ment was walked to my car and was told I am the wrong sex and color.  At least she was honest.

3.87 GPA with my MS. It's not what you know it's who you know.

 

Never interviewed again started 4 small businesses and know i have 22 employees and 7 businesses.

 

And i am Sorry everyone bleeds red 

 

And i never use all the words to describe people

Edited May 15, 2020 by scuba guy
Typo

[whatdrought]

3 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

The coach who was terrible in Cleveland was terrible in NJ.  It’s not revisionist to think a bad head coach would be bad again.  It’s like expecting Johnny Manziel to be good on another team.  But he was given 2 shots at it before people get 1.

 

and the whole point is there aren’t enough in the positions to get the opportunity!  How many minority coordinators are there?  
 

another good example is Rick Smith.  He built a Texans team that makes the playoffs every year.  He gets fired because he doesn’t get along with BOB who has been an absolute disaster as a GM. He’s out of the league. Jerry Reese built SB Giants teams and he was never given another shot.  

But at the time, he was seen as a top candidate because he’s restored his reputation and put the Browns thing behind him. Come on. Don’t be dishonest in how you approach this. 
 

Didn’t Smith walk away cause of a sick wife? Though I won’t fight you that BOB is terrible. 
 

I mean, on a whole those giant teams were marginal playoff teams that coughlin coached into SB teams, but I guess that’s a perspective thing. 
 

 

if you want to talk about lack of opportunities down the line that’s another conversation I’m less familiar with, but it’s not what this rule is about.

Edited May 15, 2020 by whatdrought

[Gonzonzo]

so every team who has more than x% of white players get a better position too? I am not american, but if this is true, is absurd.

[blacklabel]

1 hour ago, YoloinOhio said:

Another good year for this D and Frazier will be gone I fear. Would like to keep him but good for him. 

 

I'd like to see him stick around as well but I don't think they'd have too hard a time replacing him if need be. It's McDermott's scheme and he'd surely fine someone to run things the way he wants. 

[C.Biscuit97]

4 minutes ago, artmalibu said:

 

So, when its viewed that blacks are not fairly represented thats a problem.  70 % of the NFL is black and thats ok? 

Dude, it’s been respectful in this whole conversation.  What is this point you are trying to get across?  Because it makes no sense.  Every human being is allowed to play the sport of football.  Some of more capable than others and make the nfl.  I played through college but the sole reason I didn’t make it in the nfl was because I wasn’t good enough.  It’s a physical thing.  
 

guys aren’t given the shot to get top level nfl jobs.  It has nothing to do with physical skills.  It’s a subjective process that is based largely on nepotism.  

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

Just now, blacklabel said:

 

I'd like to see him stick around as well but I don't think they'd have too hard a time replacing him if need be. It's McDermott's scheme and he'd surely fine someone to run things the way he wants. 

 

hasn't McD more than once taken away playcalling from Les?

 

[C.Biscuit97]

1 minute ago, whatdrought said:

But at the time, he was seen as a top candidate because he’s restored his reputation and put the Browns thing behind him. Come on. Don’t be dishonest in how you approach this. 
 

Didn’t Smith walk away cause of a sick wife? Though I won’t fight you that BOB is terrible. 
 

I mean, on a whole those giant teams were marginal playoff teams that coughlin coached into SB teams, but I guess that’s a perspective thing. 

I thought Shurmur was a joke when the Browns hired him.  He seemed scared.  
 

and I looked it up about Smith and that was part of it but there is this article.  https://www.google.com/amp/s/syndication.bleacherreport.com/amp/2751561-report-bill-obrien-rick-smith-have-toxic-and-dysfunctional-relationship.amp.html

[YoloinOhio]

1 hour ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

But what are the other options?  Ozzie Newsome and Mike Tomlin are the best at what they do and it has caused no traction at all.  And you have dudes who are terrible at their jobs who constantly get opportunity after opportunity.  
 

 

[whatdrought]

Just now, C.Biscuit97 said:

I thought Shurmur was a joke when the Browns hired him.  He seemed scared.  
 

and I looked it up about Smith and that was part of it but there is this article.  https://www.google.com/amp/s/syndication.bleacherreport.com/amp/2751561-report-bill-obrien-rick-smith-have-toxic-and-dysfunctional-relationship.amp.html

Yep, and he was a bad HC. But still, when he was hired by the giants he was seen as a top candidate. If he gets another shot, come back to me and argue that any black person on the earth was a better option and I’ll concede that one. 

[GoBills808]

30 minutes ago, mjt328 said:

 

It shouldn't be a tough conversation.

 

We should be teaching our children to judge everyone based on the content of their character.  Not based on the color of their skin.  Period.

I fully understand that as a society (meaning the U.S.), we have a terrible history regarding race.  And we still aren't where we need to be. 

 

But many of the solutions being proposed (Rooney Rule, Affirmative Action, Diversity Initiatives), are NOT working and are actually doing more to divide us.

Instead of encouraging an employer to NOT see skin color, and instead see character when making a hire... these ideas encourage ONLY seeing skin color, or at least making it one of the primary factors.

 

If I was of a minority race, I wouldn't want an employer to just hire me because they needed to hit a quota.  I would want to live in a society where my skills and qualifications were the driving force behind me getting the job.

 

Right, because if there's one thing that holds true in this country it's that everyone gets hired on merit.

[whatdrought]

1 minute ago, YoloinOhio said:

Shhhh. Don’t talk about that one. Let the Jets keep thinking they have a genius. 

[SCBills]

Beane about to show up to owners meetings like Robert Downey Jr in Tropic Thunder 

[artmalibu]

2 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Dude, it’s been respectful in this whole conversation.  What is this point you are trying to get across?  Because it makes no sense.  Every human being is allowed to play the sport of football.  Some of more capable than others and make the nfl.  I played through college but the sole reason I didn’t make it in the nfl was because I wasn’t good enough.  It’s a physical thing.  
 

guys aren’t given the shot to get top level nfl jobs.  It has nothing to do with physical skills.  It’s a subjective process that is based largely on nepotism.  

 

My point is I think it is stupid.  Giving a team a competitive advantage based on ethnic background.  When the percentages are close to proportional whats the problem?  

[whatdrought]

3 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Right, because if there's one thing that holds true in this country it's that everyone gets hired on merit.

So apply that to specifics of this conversation. Which NFL coach was or was not hired on the basis of race? 

[Don Otreply]

This will be a testy thread, some folk don’t think there is racism or racial inequality on any level in America, I for one know that there is. It is good that the NFL has the balls to discus the topic, where it will go remains to be seen.

 

Go Bills!!!