Crazy Chiefs team building stat

[Buffalo716]

2 hours ago, Zerovoltz said:

 

KC uses him fairly often when playing strong run teams.  he was prominent in the Titans game, but doesn't get alot of snaps when playing a team like the Patriots or Chargers...who throw to their backs alot.  Ragland is good for one thing and one thing only....stout run defense where he attacks the gap and makes a play.  He sucks in coverage.

I think everybody here knows what Ragland can do we traded his slow ass to the chiefs

[Rico]

14 minutes ago, Zerovoltz said:

 

could happen.  We'll see.

Yes, we will. I see a lot of similarities though.

 

Who was the team that punched Marino in the face in his one Super Bowl?

[Zerovoltz]

11 minutes ago, Rico said:

Yes, we will. I see a lot of similarities though.

 

Who was the team that punched Marino in the face in his one Super Bowl?

 

The 1984 49ers.  I'll have to check, but I'm pretty sure every single member of that 49ers team is retired. 

26 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

I think everybody here knows what Ragland can do we traded his slow ass to the chiefs

 

I would have assumed this as well, and only responded because someone asked about his usage in KC.

[Kkspike]

Washington and John Riggins .

[ticketssince61]

The key to the chiefs is that they

a) either were smarter than or luckier than other teams in seeing the potential in Mahomes

b) built their team around the strengths of Mahomes (i.e. speed and versatility on offense)

 

However, things will change dramatically in one year, when Mahomes comes off his rookie deal and makes $40mm per year

 

[eball]

Can anyone answer the question of why @Zerovoltz is hanging around this forum?

 

Just odd. 

[All_Pro_Bills]

Consistently trading your first rounders is usually not a receipe for success.  Rather than chalk it up to skill and expertise at player evaluation I'd say it's more likely to be good luck or random chance.  It might work 1 time out of 100.

[Zerovoltz]

2 hours ago, ticketssince61 said:

The key to the chiefs is that they

a) either were smarter than or luckier than other teams in seeing the potential in Mahomes

b) built their team around the strengths of Mahomes (i.e. speed and versatility on offense)

 

However, things will change dramatically in one year, when Mahomes comes off his rookie deal and makes $40mm per year

 

 

1.  They were on Mahomes and heavily scouted him for 2 years and specifically were targeting him the draft.  So, they were on him...but it's still not a given with any player what you get sometimes....so if you want to throw in some luck there too, I'm good with that.

 

2.  Mahomes is going to break the bank, but KC is in good cap shape...and as it will be an extension, it's probalby pretty safe to assume that most cap hits will be toward the back end....so we are probably a couple years out from the cap squeeze.....also, this might be another stroke of luck, but the CAP is probalby going to grow pretty rapidly over the next few years as gambling revenue starts to stream in.  That might mitigate the hurt just a little.  but once the big numbers start to come in, yes, it will be a challenge to maintain a championship level team. 

 

2 hours ago, eball said:

Can anyone answer the question of why @Zerovoltz is hanging around this forum?

 

Just odd. 

 

i've been here for a few years now....I like it here....good active group of fans...fun to chat with etc.

[NoSaint]

7 hours ago, YoloinOhio said:

This is crazy to me... obviously mahomes and fisher are the two. Draft well in all rounds and scout the pros to the point where you can hit in FA & the waiver wire. Not all about the 1st round. 

 

 

it just underscores that outside of getting a solid HC/QB combo the rest is just assembling talent and there’s no one way to do it.

[SirAndrew]

3 hours ago, ticketssince61 said:

The key to the chiefs is that they

a) either were smarter than or luckier than other teams in seeing the potential in Mahomes

b) built their team around the strengths of Mahomes (i.e. speed and versatility on offense)

 

However, things will change dramatically in one year, when Mahomes comes off his rookie deal and makes $40mm per year

 

Bingo. I think both of those things happened. I’m not sure if their success provides any type of “blueprint”. They were very fortunate in hitting a home run with Mahomes, and got lucky finding gems in Hill and Kelce. 

[Zerovoltz]

2 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

It's really all about Mahomes.

 

Their defense is trash. Mahomes is ridiculously good, and their offense in general is extremely good.... The reason they are in the Super Bowl. 

 

 

 

........KC gave up fewer points than the niners did this year.......(8th fewest in the NFL)  KC also has a top 10 pass D.  Not exactly trash.  Held Travis Henry to 69 Yards last week.  Pretty trashy.

[CSBill]

16 hours ago, Zerovoltz said:

This is a somewhat wild stat.  Allow me to give it some context though.

 

2013  KC was drafting 1/1 in a draft that didn't have a QB (you all should know that first hand) and no big time edge rusher...so we took Eric Fisher.  Frankly he sucked about the first 4-5 years of his career...he's good now.  Took a while.

 

2014.  Dee Ford.  We franchised and traded him to the 49ers this past offseason.  He had an up and down career in KC. 

 

2015.  Marcus Peters.  Great cover guy.....bad tackler.  KC ended up trading him after he and an assistant coach got into a fist fight on team bus.  Got a 2nd in 2019 and 4th in 2018 from the Rams for him. 

 

2016.  KC had pick 28 and traded out of the first round with ....San Francisco...

 

2017.  Traded up from 27 to 10....also giving up 2018 1st and 2017 3rd.

 

2018.  Pick was traded to the Bills in 2017.

 

2019.  Pick traded to Seattle.

 

 

OK.  So, let's examine what KC got out of these trades.

 

2014 pick Dee Ford is now a 2020 Second Round pick from the 49ers.

2015 pick Marcus Peters turned into backup Safety Armani Watts (rd 4 2018) and Starting safety and all rookie Juan Thornhill (rd 2 2019)

2016 trade out of first round plus KC 7th, for SF 2nd, 4th and 6th.  That got KC, Chris Jones (2nd round) Guard Parker Ehinger (4th) Ehinger was traded to the Cowboys for KC starting CB, Charvarious Ward....and CB DJ White (no longer on team, 6th round)

2017. Pat Mahomes

2018.....also Pat Mahomes

2019.  Frank Clark.

 

So from 2013, to 2019, KC either used their 1st round pick, or traded the pick or player and that got us (KC)

 

Fisher - Starting good LT.

Juan Thornhill - All rookie impact starting S.

Chris Jones - Starting stud DT.

Charvarious Ward - Starting CB.

Frank Clark - Pro Bowl DE.

and Patrick Mahomes.  All world QB.

 

So while the stat is correct......it needs context.  KC played the cards well here.

 

Good work Zerovoltz. Context usually gives a more accurate picture. "Behind every story, there's a story."

12 hours ago, eball said:

Can anyone answer the question of why @Zerovoltz is hanging around this forum?

 

Just odd. 

 

well, he does have almost 700 posts, so not new

[C.Biscuit97]

19 hours ago, SoCal Deek said:

Hard to believe Sammy and Shady were the last two missing pieces.

Yeah, the guy averaging 100 yards/ postseason game the last 2 years isn’t a factor at all!  
 

get the stud qb and everything else falls into place.  Hill slipped because he’s human garbage.  I’m not sure good Kelce was in college so that is awesome value.  But everything other position can be filled out without using major draft picks once you have the star qb.

[Chaos]

19 hours ago, Zerovoltz said:

This is a somewhat wild stat.  Allow me to give it some context though.

 

2013  KC was drafting 1/1 in a draft that didn't have a QB (you all should know that first hand) and no big time edge rusher...so we took Eric Fisher.  Frankly he sucked about the first 4-5 years of his career...he's good now.  Took a while.

 

2014.  Dee Ford.  We franchised and traded him to the 49ers this past offseason.  He had an up and down career in KC. 

 

2015.  Marcus Peters.  Great cover guy.....bad tackler.  KC ended up trading him after he and an assistant coach got into a fist fight on team bus.  Got a 2nd in 2019 and 4th in 2018 from the Rams for him. 

 

2016.  KC had pick 28 and traded out of the first round with ....San Francisco...

 

2017.  Traded up from 27 to 10....also giving up 2018 1st and 2017 3rd.

 

2018.  Pick was traded to the Bills in 2017.

 

2019.  Pick traded to Seattle.

 

 

OK.  So, let's examine what KC got out of these trades.

 

2014 pick Dee Ford is now a 2020 Second Round pick from the 49ers.

2015 pick Marcus Peters turned into backup Safety Armani Watts (rd 4 2018) and Starting safety and all rookie Juan Thornhill (rd 2 2019)

2016 trade out of first round plus KC 7th, for SF 2nd, 4th and 6th.  That got KC, Chris Jones (2nd round) Guard Parker Ehinger (4th) Ehinger was traded to the Cowboys for KC starting CB, Charvarious Ward....and CB DJ White (no longer on team, 6th round)

2017. Pat Mahomes

2018.....also Pat Mahomes

2019.  Frank Clark.

 

So from 2013, to 2019, KC either used their 1st round pick, or traded the pick or player and that got us (KC)

 

Fisher - Starting good LT.

Juan Thornhill - All rookie impact starting S.

Chris Jones - Starting stud DT.

Charvarious Ward - Starting CB.

Frank Clark - Pro Bowl DE.

and Patrick Mahomes.  All world QB.

 

So while the stat is correct......it needs context.  KC played the cards well here.

Team building is 100% situational analysis. The Chiefs have made a lot of correct decisions for key situations. There is no one formula.  The key is the accurate decision making. 

The Bills seemed to think that EJ Manuel was a Franchise QB and went all out with draft capital to surround him with Sammy Watkins and Shady McCoy while EJ was on the rookie contract.  (Irony).  The horrible judgment was that Manuel was a player to build around. If he had been Mahomes, the Watkins and McCoy picks may  have turned out brilliant.  Since the first horrible judgement on Manuel was made though those two decisions ultimately created holes for the Bills.

Now the Bills seem to not making any particular efforts to surround Josh Allen with high end free agent talent while he is on his rookie contract.  That avoids the prior mistakes, but maybe misses out on the kind of  upside the Chiefs are witnessing. 

[SoTier]

18 hours ago, Nextmanup said:

This may have worked for them, this year, but it is not the right way to build a team, statistically speaking.

 

 

Why not? 

 

The Chiefs have had 7 straight winning seasons.   They made the playoffs in 6 of those 7 seasons, and have won the AFC West the last 4 years.  Last season they just missed going to the Super Bowl against the eventual SB champion Patriots, and this year they punched their ticket to the Big Show emphatically. 

 

Moreover, the Patriots have built a dynasty of 20 years duration without being great at drafting well in the first round.   Over the years, so many of  the players who help create that dynasty either weren't drafted in the first round or were some other team's first rounder ... Brady, Gronkowski, Edelmann, Welker, Seymour, Moss, Gilmore, etc.

12 hours ago, Billsmisery said:

Go away we don't want garbage chiefs fans around here. I hope you lose the SB. Go 49ers!! Go back to KC forums bunghole.

Chiefs have nothing but a bunch of thugs 

 

Sour grapes much?

[GunnerBill]

19 hours ago, Zerovoltz said:

This is a somewhat wild stat.  Allow me to give it some context though.

 

2013  KC was drafting 1/1 in a draft that didn't have a QB (you all should know that first hand) and no big time edge rusher...so we took Eric Fisher.  Frankly he sucked about the first 4-5 years of his career...he's good now.  Took a while.

 

2014.  Dee Ford.  We franchised and traded him to the 49ers this past offseason.  He had an up and down career in KC. 

 

2015.  Marcus Peters.  Great cover guy.....bad tackler.  KC ended up trading him after he and an assistant coach got into a fist fight on team bus.  Got a 2nd in 2019 and 4th in 2018 from the Rams for him. 

 

2016.  KC had pick 28 and traded out of the first round with ....San Francisco...

 

2017.  Traded up from 27 to 10....also giving up 2018 1st and 2017 3rd.

 

2018.  Pick was traded to the Bills in 2017.

 

2019.  Pick traded to Seattle.

 

 

OK.  So, let's examine what KC got out of these trades.

 

2014 pick Dee Ford is now a 2020 Second Round pick from the 49ers.

2015 pick Marcus Peters turned into backup Safety Armani Watts (rd 4 2018) and Starting safety and all rookie Juan Thornhill (rd 2 2019)

2016 trade out of first round plus KC 7th, for SF 2nd, 4th and 6th.  That got KC, Chris Jones (2nd round) Guard Parker Ehinger (4th) Ehinger was traded to the Cowboys for KC starting CB, Charvarious Ward....and CB DJ White (no longer on team, 6th round)

2017. Pat Mahomes

2018.....also Pat Mahomes

2019.  Frank Clark.

 

So from 2013, to 2019, KC either used their 1st round pick, or traded the pick or player and that got us (KC)

 

Fisher - Starting good LT.

Juan Thornhill - All rookie impact starting S.

Chris Jones - Starting stud DT.

Charvarious Ward - Starting CB.

Frank Clark - Pro Bowl DE.

and Patrick Mahomes.  All world QB.

 

So while the stat is correct......it needs context.  KC played the cards well here.

 

 

I always think of Chris Jones as a first rounder (he was on my board) so I forget the slid back a few picks and still got him. That one was a great move. But yea when over a 7 draft period you only actually pick in the first round four times it is going to reduce the number of first rounders you have on your roster.

 

I have to say I'm still not quite sure about swapping Dee Ford and a #1 pick for Frank Clark and a #2 pick (which is essentially what happened) - especially when Ford signed a much more team friendly manageable deal than the one KC inked Clark to. I think there is very little between them as players - they are both in my second tier of edge guys - though I guess that as KC was transitioning to Spags' 4-3 from Sutton's 3-4 they might argue Clark fitted better than Ford in the former and Ford was more of a natural fit for the latter. I just thought that played out pretty strangely.

[SoTier]

1 hour ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Yeah, the guy averaging 100 yards/ postseason game the last 2 years isn’t a factor at all!  
 

get the stud qb and everything else falls into place.  Hill slipped because he’s human garbage.  I’m not sure good Kelce was in college so that is awesome value.  But everything other position can be filled out without using major draft picks once you have the star qb.

 

Matthew Stafford and Phillip Rivers say "hi."    Moreover, prior to the emergence of Mahomes, the Chiefs were a perennial contender with Alex Smith at QB, and the Vikings have been a regular playoff team without having that great QB.   It's not so simple as acquiring a QB; the team has to provide that QB with protection, weapons, and a defense, too.  Even the GOAT Brady couldn't get the Pats to the Super Bowl by himself.

 

8 minutes ago, Chaos said:

Team building is 100% situational analysis. The Chiefs have made a lot of correct decisions for key situations. There is no one formula.  The key is the accurate decision making. 

The Bills seemed to think that EJ Manuel was a Franchise QB and went all out with draft capital to surround him with Sammy Watkins and Shady McCoy while EJ was on the rookie contract.  (Irony).  The horrible judgment was that Manuel was a player to build around. If he had been Mahomes, the Watkins and McCoy picks may  have turned out brilliant.  Since the first horrible judgement on Manuel was made though those two decisions ultimately created holes for the Bills.

Now the Bills seem to not making any particular efforts to surround Josh Allen with high end free agent talent while he is on his rookie contract.  That avoids the prior mistakes, but maybe misses out on the kind of  upside the Chiefs are witnessing. 

 

Great post, and dead on.  The biggest issue I have with Beane and McDermott is that they haven't demonstrated much urgency in giving Allen the support he needs to prove himself, starting with their failure to hire a bonafide QB coach last season to help Allen improve his game.

 

 

[SoCal Deek]

10 minutes ago, SoTier said:

Great post, and dead on.  The biggest issue I have with Beane and McDermott is that they haven't demonstrated much urgency in giving Allen the support he needs to prove himself, starting with their failure to hire a bonafide QB coach last season to help Allen improve his game.

 

 

I’m curious as to what you want that coach to teach him. Not arguing with you; just curious.

[C.Biscuit97]

10 minutes ago, SoTier said:

 

Matthew Stafford and Phillip Rivers say "hi."    Moreover, prior to the emergence of Mahomes, the Chiefs were a perennial contender with Alex Smith at QB, and the Vikings have been a regular playoff team without having that great QB.   It's not so simple as acquiring a QB; the team has to provide that QB with protection, weapons, and a defense, too.  Even the GOAT Brady couldn't get the Pats to the Super Bowl by himself.

 

 

Great post, and dead on.  The biggest issue I have with Beane and McDermott is that they haven't demonstrated much urgency in giving Allen the support he needs to prove himself, starting with their failure to hire a bonafide QB coach last season to help Allen improve his game.

 

 

Stafford and Rivers aren’t close to Mahomes’ level.  In his 3rd year in the league, he is the best qb in the game.  At their very best, MS and Rivers are fringe top 10 qbs.  Plus, PM is on a rookie contract.

 

but obviously, you need more than a qb but it’s so big.  And there are like 5 who can carry a team and PM is definitely one. 

[dave mcbride]

22 hours ago, Zerovoltz said:

This is a somewhat wild stat.  Allow me to give it some context though.

 

2013  KC was drafting 1/1 in a draft that didn't have a QB (you all should know that first hand) and no big time edge rusher...so we took Eric Fisher.  Frankly he sucked about the first 4-5 years of his career...he's good now.  Took a while.

 

2014.  Dee Ford.  We franchised and traded him to the 49ers this past offseason.  He had an up and down career in KC. 

 

2015.  Marcus Peters.  Great cover guy.....bad tackler.  KC ended up trading him after he and an assistant coach got into a fist fight on team bus.  Got a 2nd in 2019 and 4th in 2018 from the Rams for him. 

 

2016.  KC had pick 28 and traded out of the first round with ....San Francisco...

 

2017.  Traded up from 27 to 10....also giving up 2018 1st and 2017 3rd.

 

2018.  Pick was traded to the Bills in 2017.

 

2019.  Pick traded to Seattle.

 

 

OK.  So, let's examine what KC got out of these trades.

 

2014 pick Dee Ford is now a 2020 Second Round pick from the 49ers.

2015 pick Marcus Peters turned into backup Safety Armani Watts (rd 4 2018) and Starting safety and all rookie Juan Thornhill (rd 2 2019)

2016 trade out of first round plus KC 7th, for SF 2nd, 4th and 6th.  That got KC, Chris Jones (2nd round) Guard Parker Ehinger (4th) Ehinger was traded to the Cowboys for KC starting CB, Charvarious Ward....and CB DJ White (no longer on team, 6th round)

2017. Pat Mahomes

2018.....also Pat Mahomes

2019.  Frank Clark.

 

So from 2013, to 2019, KC either used their 1st round pick, or traded the pick or player and that got us (KC)

 

Fisher - Starting good LT.

Juan Thornhill - All rookie impact starting S.

Chris Jones - Starting stud DT.

Charvarious Ward - Starting CB.

Frank Clark - Pro Bowl DE.

and Patrick Mahomes.  All world QB.

 

So while the stat is correct......it needs context.  KC played the cards well here.

Great post.  This is the proper way to look at it.

22 hours ago, Nextmanup said:

This may have worked for them, this year, but it is not the right way to build a team, statistically speaking.

 

I think you need to look at the larger context, as per @Zerovoltz's post. The tweet is misleading.

18 hours ago, eball said:

Can anyone answer the question of why @Zerovoltz is hanging around this forum?

 

Just odd. 

Why even ask, @eball? He offered up a quality post that enriched the discussion. Don't look a gift horse in the mouth.