The 50/50 Ball to...DiMarco?

[Thurman#1]

On 1/5/2020 at 12:17 PM, buffalobillswin said:

It was a broken play that was extended due to no pressure. Dimarco was down there because the ball should have been out of Allen's hand quickly.

 

 

Yeah, an extended play. Not so much broken, maybe.

 

Also, sending an FB downfield can be a very smart move in that anyone downfield draws coverage and probably double coverage. DiMarco did draw a double. That leaves real targets underneath free of safety help on their routes.

 

It's a surety that the play wasn't drawn up with DiMarco deep as Josh's primary target. But he couldn't/didn't find anyone else open.

Edited January 7, 2020 by Thurman#1

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

2 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

No. He was lined up outside and ran a go from the jump-

 

 

Seriously though, how did the Texans drop 13 guys into coverage?  JA had a ton of time to throw but each receiver had 3 guys on them. There has to be some “get free damn it!” jail break  at some point, no? 

[GoBills808]

Just now, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Yeah, an extended play.

 

Also, sending an FB downfield can be a very smart move in that anyone downfield draws coverage and probably double coverage. DiMarco did draw a double. That leaves real targets underneath free of safety help on their routes.

 

It's a surety that the play wasn't drawn up with DiMarco deep as Josh's primary target. But he couldn't find anyone else open.

No offense but this is completely wrong. Dimarco did not draw a double to free anyone up; as a matter of fact having him run a go and Lee Smith a post on the same side of the play allowed one safety to cover both since neither are real receiving threats. Everyone else got swallowed up. That is horrible play design.

[oldmanfan]

5 minutes ago, Kelly the Dog said:

It's ridiculous. And even the logic is stupid IMO. They think, and have said publicly, and a bunch of people applauded the idea, that they put him out there, and the defense has to adjust by putting in an extra linebacker to compensate. SO WHAT?! Then they split him out and is easily covered and never makes a play. How about keeping him on the bench and have an extra WR out there against an extra CB but who can actually make a play! The Lee Smith/DiMarco offense especially late and in OT was shocking, and stupid, to me.

You can go on and on about this, but the bottom line is DiMarco had inside position on both defenders and if he jumps a split second later it's a completion.  The Texans dropped 8 guys, and we still had the ball in a guy’s hands to make a play.

[Reed83HOF]

5 minutes ago, Kelly the Dog said:

It's ridiculous. And even the logic is stupid IMO. They think, and have said publicly, and a bunch of people applauded the idea, that they put him out there, and the defense has to adjust by putting in an extra linebacker to compensate. SO WHAT?! Then they split him out and is easily covered and never makes a play. How about keeping him on the bench and have an extra WR out there against an extra CB but who can actually make a play! The Lee Smith/DiMarco offense especially late and in OT was shocking, and stupid, to me.

 

It is these issues that drive me up the wall with Daboll and to a degree McD for allowing it; this entire play with those 2 should not have been in there, just like having Gore in the game with 30 seconds left in the half. In these times you play your best players and the scrubs are on the bench; you just give a down away or allow for something terrible to happen. It's the same thing with bumbling the time at the end of the half over the course of the season in countless games, these things should never happen. It's maddening

[GoBills808]

3 minutes ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said:

Seriously though, how did the Texans drop 13 guys into coverage?  JA had a ton of time to throw but each receiver had 3 guys on them. There has to be some “get free damn it!” jail break  at some point, no? 

Well when you go 5 wide with Pat Dimarco and Lee Smith on the same side you become real easy to defend

[BBills88]

Edited January 7, 2020 by BBills88

[oldmanfan]

1 minute ago, BBills88 said:

From listening to One Bill's Drive earlier. It was drew up like that. But Allen should have hit Singletary or Beasley underneath as they had room to run.

They weren’t open from what could be seen from replays.

[Kelly the Dog]

8 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Yeah, an extended play. Not so much broken, maybe.

 

Also, sending an FB downfield can be a very smart move in that anyone downfield draws coverage and probably double coverage. DiMarco did draw a double. That leaves real targets underneath free of safety help on their routes.

 

It's a surety that the play wasn't drawn up with DiMarco deep as Josh's primary target. But he couldn't/didn't find anyone else open.

He didn't really draw a double though. Lee Smith also ran a deep route on same side and as soon as Josh threw, the guy covering Smith left him and ran over to DiMarco. It was a stupid play.

[ILBillsfan]

3 minutes ago, BBills88 said:

From listening to One Bill's Drive earlier. It was drew up like that. But Allen should have hit Singletary or Beasley underneath as they had room to run.

beasley had three guys on him looking at the video above

 

Murph/Tasker way too non controversial since employeed by the Bills they were not open and will never be critical of the staff

Edited January 7, 2020 by ILBillsfan

[Kelly the Dog]

7 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

You can go on and on about this, but the bottom line is DiMarco had inside position on both defenders and if he jumps a split second later it's a completion.  The Texans dropped 8 guys, and we still had the ball in a guy’s hands to make a play.

I said he timed his jump wrong and should have caught it.

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

7 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Well when you go 5 wide with Pat Dimarco and Lee Smith on the same side you become real easy to defend

Actually that is a very salient point. I just see colors. ?

[LSHMEAB]

14 minutes ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said:

Seriously though, how did the Texans drop 13 guys into coverage?  JA had a ton of time to throw but each receiver had 3 guys on them. There has to be some “get free damn it!” jail break  at some point, no? 

It was a VERY odd/poor play call, but Brown had worked himself open.

Edited January 7, 2020 by LSHMEAB

[HOUSE]

On 1/4/2020 at 10:18 PM, TH3 said:

This is too important not to put in the post game thread?

[Meatloaf63]

25 minutes ago, Kelly the Dog said:

It was a TERRIBLE throw and I am a huge Josh fan. He literally missed it by ten yards. From the endzone view, when Josh looked and threw, DiMarco was two yards past his one defender. It was way, way short. DiMarco had to completely stop, wait, and then jump. If Josh threw it well it could have been a TD, except he probably would have been caught from behind but maybe not. But when the ball was released he was open. 

 

That said, he did time the jump bad, and he probably should have caught it. But he's not at all a good receiver despite some claims and his 52 catches in 8 seasons.

Jeez exaggerating much? Missed by  10 yards? Hardly ....

[BBills88]

After looking at it again.They would have been better off throwing a wr screen with McKenzie, with Smith and DeMarco blocking.

[Kelly the Dog]

Just now, Meatloaf63 said:

Jeez exaggerating much? Missed by  10 yards? Hardly ....

I'm saying and I would bet on it that if DiMarco kept on running full speed, and Josh threw it ten yards further, it could have hit him on the dead run. I'm positive with a running start, in the time it took DiMarco to slow down, look for the ball, stop, wait, and jump, he could have run ten yards.

[HalftimeAdjustment]

Who was the player just past the 30 on the near sideline? Looked like an open checkdown.

[LSHMEAB]

5 minutes ago, Kelly the Dog said:

I'm saying and I would bet on it that if DiMarco kept on running full speed, and Josh threw it ten yards further, it could have hit him on the dead run. I'm positive with a running start, in the time it took DiMarco to slow down, look for the ball, stop, wait, and jump, he could have run ten yards.

It wasn't a good throw, but I do think the DB would have caught up to Dimarco even if he were able to keep running full speed. Get what you're saying, but that DB had his eyes on the ball and a distinct speed advantage.

 

Again, I have zero clue what that formation is about, but Allen did eventually have a guy open underneath.

[oldmanfan]

13 minutes ago, Kelly the Dog said:

I said he timed his jump wrong and should have caught it.

Then why are you complaining?

[Kelly the Dog]

5 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

Then why are you complaining?

Because it was a bad throw, too? Mostly I was just pointing out that at the moment Josh looked and threw to DiMarco, he was two yards past his defender and open by any definition If Josh hits him on the run it's a possible TD or 60 yard play. I thought like most everyone at first that he threw a stupid ball into double coverage that could have or even should have been caught. But when you see the replay from behind, that wasn't the case. It was just WAY short, which allowed the safety covering Lee Smith (LEE FREAKING SMITH!) to leave Smith and get in a position to make an INT.

[oldmanfan]

6 minutes ago, Kelly the Dog said:

Because it was a bad throw, too? Mostly I was just pointing out that at the moment Josh looked and threw to DiMarco, he was two yards past his defender and open by any definition If Josh hits him on the run it's a possible TD or 60 yard play. I thought like most everyone at first that he threw a stupid ball into double coverage that could have or even should have been caught. But when you see the replay from behind, that wasn't the case. It was just WAY short, which allowed the safety covering Lee Smith (LEE FREAKING SMITH!) to leave Smith and get in a position to make an INT.

Others have pointed out he may not have been as open as you say.

[Kelly the Dog]

2 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

Others have pointed out he may not have been as open as you say.

Then they should watch the view from behind. The one above in this thread shows him open and behind the guy. It wasn't as good a shot as the other angle. But the poster that responded said he throught the defender would have made up the two yards with better speed, which may or may not be true

[oldmanfan]

Just now, Kelly the Dog said:

Then they should watch the view from behind. The one above in this thread shows him open and behind the guy. It wasn't as good a shot as the other angle. But the poster that responded said he throught the defender would have made up the two yards with better speed, which may or may not be true

And that circles you right back to what you already said:  he should have caught it.

 

So explain to me again why so many people are ragging on Allen or the call or the alignment of the stars or whatever over a play where the QB makes a throw the receiver should have caught.

[KD in CA]

On 1/4/2020 at 7:24 PM, Best Williams Available said:

On that play Lee Smith was also way downfield with DiMarco. What play call has these two speedsters running 40 yd routes?

 

What play call has these two even on the ***** field??!?   

[Kelly the Dog]

Just now, oldmanfan said:

And that circles you right back to what you already said:  he should have caught it.

 

So explain to me again why so many people are ragging on Allen or the call or the alignment of the stars or whatever over a play where the QB makes a throw the receiver should have caught.

I can only state my position three times in a row. I refuse to say the same thing four times in a row. I am only one person saying my opinion and trying to answer your questions.

Just now, KD in CA said:

 

What play call has these two even on the ***** field??!?   

He had them in a bunch of plays in the fourth and even OT. i couldn't believe it.

[oldmanfan]

3 minutes ago, Kelly the Dog said:

I can only state my position three times in a row. I refuse to say the same thing four times in a row. I am only one person saying my opinion and trying to answer your questions.

He had them in a bunch of plays in the fourth and even OT. i couldn't believe it.

I can understand questioning having DiMarco and especially Smith split wide.  You keep going on about the throw, but when the throw was made bottom line is he should have caught it.  I’ve said that at least a dozen times since last night so four times doesn’t seem like a stretch.

[Troll Toll]

5 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

And that circles you right back to what you already said:  he should have caught it.

 

So explain to me again why so many people are ragging on Allen or the call or the alignment of the stars or whatever over a play where the QB makes a throw the receiver should have caught.

I agree, who was David Tyree before and after that Super Bowl catch? Winning teams have unlikely heroes and the Bills unfortunately have guys like Clay and DiMarco. Then Allen gets eviscerated because he should know his teammates won’t come through...

[Punching Bag]

On 1/4/2020 at 10:39 PM, Freddie's Dead said:

 

Saw that on the replay, he did jump too early.  I glossed him Breasts on a Bull, because he is totally freakin' useless.  There have to be fullbacks in the league that can run, catch, block, AND MAKE PLAYS!   The next play DiMarco makes will be the first.

 

Sounds like you want someone in Larry Centers' mold.

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

I know he's a fullback... But he is a football player. He should be able to catch a pass... If he can't- get rid of him. 

4 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

I can understand questioning having DiMarco and especially Smith split wide.  You keep going on about the throw, but when the throw was made bottom line is he should have caught it.  I’ve said that at least a dozen times since last night so four times doesn’t seem like a stretch.

 

The idea is u get singletary in man cov. With a linebacker. You sacrifice by also having LBs on Smith and dimarco. 

[Freddie's Dead]

2 minutes ago, Limeaid said:

 

Sounds like you want someone in Larry Centers' mold.

 

Hell, I'll take Sam Gash.

[oldmanfan]

2 minutes ago, dneveu said:

I know he's a fullback... But he is a football player. He should be able to catch a pass... If he can't- get rid of him. 

 

The idea is u get singletary in man cov. With a linebacker. You sacrifice by also having LBs on Smith and dimarco. 

I see

[GoBills808]

2 minutes ago, dneveu said:

I know he's a fullback... But he is a football player. He should be able to catch a pass... If he can't- get rid of him. 

 

The idea is u get singletary in man cov. With a linebacker. You sacrifice by also having LBs on Smith and dimarco. 

Thing is, tho...they lined up Singletary wide also. So he got a DB. The slot was McKenzie who had the mismatch...but he just ran a curl underneath.

[Livinginthepast]

On the bright side, DiMarco's poorly timed jump was able to throw off the sightline for both of those defenders and inadvertently prevent an easy interception on what was a pop fly!

[John in Jax]

1 hour ago, oldmanfan said:

You can go on and on about this, but the bottom line is DiMarco had inside position on both defenders and if he jumps a split second later it's a completion.  The Texans dropped 8 guys, and we still had the ball in a guy’s hands to make a play.

As stated already, the ball was not on target, and was under thrown. That being said, it looks like if it had been under thrown even more...say about 5 yards more... it would have been easy for Dimarxo to come back a little and get it. 

 

In any case, JA just threw it up for grabs there, and it was a bad decision (to throw it to Dimarco). Although I don't think anybody else was really open since they had 8 guys covering 5.

[Nextmanup]

53 minutes ago, KD in CA said:

 

What play call has these two even on the ***** field??!?   

It's all part of the McBeane process or way of doing things.  

 

Fullbacks!  Low scores!  Defense!  Win in the trenches! Run the ball!  Win all games 17-13.

 

The problem is it's not 1956 anymore and even if it were, that is an incredibly difficult blueprint for winning.

 

Eventually this organization will have a strong passing game again.  We are nowhere close to being there now, but I have to believe it will be here one day.  Has to, right?

 

 

[oldmanfan]

6 minutes ago, John in Jax said:

As stated already, the ball was not on target, and was under thrown. That being said, it looks like if it had been under thrown even more...say about 5 yards more... it would have been easy for Dimarxo to come back a little and get it. 

 

In any case, JA just threw it up for grabs there, and it was a bad decision (to throw it to Dimarco). Although I don't think anybody else was really open since they had 8 guys covering 5.

It was not a bad decision.  Throwing a ball into double coverage does not make it a bad decision.  Not when the receiver has position and not when- for yet another time having to say this- he should have caught the ball.

 

Let me ask you this:  what would the correct decision had been?  You claim no one else was open, and I agree.  Should he have thrown it into coverage elsewhere?  What he did was throw it downfield and if it gets picked then it’s like a punt anyway.

 

Remember Taylor?  What was the knock on Taylor?  He wouldn’t give his guys a chance to make a play.  Allen gave DiMarco a chance to make a play, he times his jump right and he catches it.  But that’s Allen’s fault?

 

The schizophrenia of the fans is part amusing and part infuriating.

 

 

[John in Jax]

3 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

It was not a bad decision.  Throwing a ball into double coverage does not make it a bad decision.

 

Let me ask you this:  what would the correct decision had been?  You claim no one else was open, and I agree.  Should he have thrown it into coverage elsewhere?  What he did was throw it downfield and if it gets picked then it’s like a punt anyway.

IMO, it was a bad decision. Maybe if it was Megatron, or Moss, or Rice, or some other better than average Wide Receiver, then yes, throwing into double coverage would be OK. But to a no-name FB!? C'mon Man.

 

What should he have done? Throw. It. Away.

[Thurman#1]

3 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

No offense but this is completely wrong. Dimarco did not draw a double to free anyone up; as a matter of fact having him run a go and Lee Smith a post on the same side of the play allowed one safety to cover both since neither are real receiving threats. Everyone else got swallowed up. That is horrible play design.

 

 

No offense taken.

 

But you're wrong.

 

Lee Smith started on the right but he is running a post and when Josh throws he is on the left hash and widening, and DiMarco is near the right sideline. The safety may have tried to cover them both, but he wasn't getting to Smith if the ball had gone to him. He got to the ball because Josh led DiMarco inside towards the safety and because Josh, who could've stepped into the ball instead threw off his back foot which meant the ball was far from one of Josh's usual darts. It was poorly placed and hung up high and was placed too far inside as well.

 

And it's not true that everyone else got swallowed up. Beasley's [EDIT: sorry, that was Brown, not Beasley] open in the middle about 17 yards downfield, finding a hole in the zone. McKenzie is effectively triple-covered!!! They clearly were confused by this formation and personnel, and that leaves several reasonable options available to Josh.

 

The best two were probably Brown and Singletary. After being held and pushing off, Smith is open deep, but Josh has already started his throwing motion by that time.

 

 

3 hours ago, Kelly the Dog said:

He didn't really draw a double though. Lee Smith also ran a deep route on same side and as soon as Josh threw, the guy covering Smith left him and ran over to DiMarco. It was a stupid play.

 

 

No, the guy covering Smith stayed with him the whole way. The safety tried to cover both, but couldn't. And Smith started on the same side as DiMarco but ran a post and was on the left hash. That left the safety in trouble, trying to cover both, but he couldn't, really, as the two widened out. Josh should've gone to Lee Smith, who had beaten Bernardrick McKinney by two steps despite being held. Smith was looking back over his left shoulder and Josh could've widened him out even farther by throwing to the side.

 

Alternatively, he had Singletary wide open for six or seven and Beasley [EDIT: sorry, that was Brown, not Beasley] between two guys not that close to either, who could've been either thrown to in the hole down the middle or thrown open behind the short zone guy on the right side at about the time.

 

Josh went to the wrong guy. And we had at least two guys pretty open against eight men in coverage, probably a lot of which was due to Texan confusion. It's 2nd and 13 and he has Singletary open for probably a gain of eight with a possibility of breaking a long one if he avoids the tackler who's still eight yards away and Beasley open for probably 17, though he would be tackled right after the catch.

 

I tried to upload a screen grab of the play from the All-22 as Beasley [again, Brown, not Beasley. Sorry.] cuts inside, but get a message saying " You are only allowed to upload 204.8kB. "  He has two better considerably better options. The safeties on both sides are caught in a bind trying to defend two routes and caught in the middle. The design of this play worked fine.

 

 

Edited January 7, 2020 by Thurman#1

[oldmanfan]

Just now, John in Jax said:

IMO, it was a bad decision. Maybe if it was Megatron, or Moss, or Rice, or some other better than average Wide Receiver, then yes, throwing into double coverage would be OK. But to a no-name FB!? C'mon Man.

 

What should he have done? Throw. It. Away.

And punt.  Or throw it downfield and give the guy a shot.  Which he did.  And which should have been caught.  Why are you and others continuing to deny that DiMarco should have caught the ball?

 

Where he should have thrown it away was the intentional grounding play.

1 minute ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

No offense taken.

 

But you're wrong.

 

Lee Smith started on the right but he is running a post and when Josh throws he is on the left hash and widening, and DiMarco is near the right sideline. The safety may have tried to cover them both, but he wasn't getting to Smith if the ball had gone to him. He got to the ball because Josh led DiMarco inside towards the safety and because Josh, who could've stepped into the ball instead threw off his back foot which meant the ball was far from one of Josh's usual darts. It was poorly placed and hung up high and was placed too far inside as well.

 

And it's not true that everyone else got swallowed up. Beasley's open in the middle about 17 yards downfield, finding a hole in the zone. McKenzie is effectively triple-covered!!! They clearly were confused by this formation and personnel, and that leaves several reasonable options available to Josh.

 

The best two were probably Beasley and Singletary. After being held and pushing off, Smith is open deep, but Josh has already started his throwing motion by that time.

 

 

 

 

No, the guy covering Smith stayed with him the whole way. The safety tried to cover both, but couldn't. And Smith started on the same side as DiMarco but ran a post and was on the left hash. That left the safety in trouble, trying to cover both, but he couldn't, really, as the two widened out. Josh should've gone to Lee Smith, who had beaten Bernardrick McKinney by two steps despite being held. Smith was looking back over his left shoulder and Josh could've widened him out even farther by throwing to the side.

 

Alternatively, he had Singletary wide open for six or seven and Beasley between two guys not that close to either, who could've been either thrown to in the hole down the middle or thrown open behind the short zone guy on the right side at about the time.

 

Josh went to the wrong guy. And we had at least two guys pretty open against eight men in coverage, probably a lot of which was due to Texan confusion.

 

I tried to upload a clip of the play as Beasley cuts inside, but get a message saying " You are only allowed to upload 204.8kB. "  He has two better considerably better options.

 

 

 

 

As I recall the play they dropped 8 and from what I could see guys were covered.

 

And, again, DiMarco had position and just mistimed his jump by a fraction.  He should have caught it.  That is not on the QB.