wagon127 Posted October 28, 2019 Share Posted October 28, 2019 (edited) Going into this game, I cautioned people who were thinking this was a 13, 14 or 15 win team. It takes more then just talent and a favorable schedule to get there. It takes a mental preparedness that can only come from players and leaders who are accustomed to winning. Almost everybody on this team, is not used to having winning seasons in the NFL. They are going to have ups and downs throughout this season. The Eagles are having such an up and down season. Still not able to handle their super bowl hangover. They have lost to and beaten bad teams, and lost to and beat good teams. The cowboys and Ravens are the same way. I still think this is a 10 or 11 win team. There's no reason to think the sky is falling, and we need to abandon the plan to develop with Josh Allen, and this coaching staff. Edited October 28, 2019 by wagon127 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jobot Posted October 28, 2019 Share Posted October 28, 2019 Agreed. Although my confidence in the run-D is shaken after yesterday's loss. That would be an Achilles heel for a team with a sub-par offense if it doesn't get corrected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warcodered Posted October 28, 2019 Share Posted October 28, 2019 What you mean between the 9-7 to 12-4 people have been predicting we actually have to lose 4-7 games? I'm not sure that seems irrational. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoTier Posted October 28, 2019 Share Posted October 28, 2019 Well, the Bills don't have the talent to be a 15 win team, sir. They have a few really good pieces, some good pieces, some prospects, and a lot of JAGs on their starting rosters. Get past the starters, and this team is full of 6th and 7th rounders and UDFAs. Some of their starters on both sides of the ball are at the ends of their careers. I think that their current talent level is about that of an 8 or 9 win team. Because of their schedule, they should be able to win 9 games this season, and they seem more likely to make the playoffs than in any season in the last decade but they are going to need significant improvement on the offensive side of the ball to win 10 or 11 games. They cannot continue to turn the ball over to the opposition and squander opportunities with stupid pre-snap penalties. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socal-805 Posted October 28, 2019 Share Posted October 28, 2019 Good points, however I think this is really, probably, a 7-9 team which is playing a very favorable schedule. o Offense - 19 in yards/game. 24 in points/game. Very weak QB play / passing game. Turnovers. o Defense - 5 in points / game - for now. Very good passing D - Bad run D. (See Philly and Dolphins) o S. T. - Horrible - bottom of league. https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/teamst/2019 This is year 3 of the rebuild - looking pretty shaky IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
row_33 Posted October 28, 2019 Share Posted October 28, 2019 Wild Card and a decent showing that weekend is a great achievement, all things considered. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bangarang Posted October 28, 2019 Share Posted October 28, 2019 Andy Reid inherited a Chiefs team that won 2 games the year prior. His first year they won 11 games and made the playoffs. This whole nonsense of it takes 4 or 5 years to become a good team is exactly that. 3 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
row_33 Posted October 28, 2019 Share Posted October 28, 2019 Just now, Bangarang said: Andy Reid inherited a Chiefs team that won 2 games the year prior. His first year they won 11 games and made the playoffs. This whole nonsense of it takes 4 or 5 years to become a good team is exactly that. once every 50 years is not a normative model for pro sports don't go insane if they fail to win the SB the next 6 years in Buffalo.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mango Posted October 28, 2019 Share Posted October 28, 2019 18 minutes ago, SoTier said: Well, the Bills don't have the talent to be a 15 win team, sir. They have a few really good pieces, some good pieces, some prospects, and a lot of JAGs on their starting rosters. Get past the starters, and this team is full of 6th and 7th rounders and UDFAs. Some of their starters on both sides of the ball are at the ends of their careers. I think that their current talent level is about that of an 8 or 9 win team. Because of their schedule, they should be able to win 9 games this season, and they seem more likely to make the playoffs than in any season in the last decade but they are going to need significant improvement on the offensive side of the ball to win 10 or 11 games. They cannot continue to turn the ball over to the opposition and squander opportunities with stupid pre-snap penalties. Which is why gutting a roster of talent in the name of "my guys" (cap hell was self created) is silly at best because it removes any depth. You create holes, then have to dedicate resources to replace them. Then ignore other holes to fill the self created. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wagon127 Posted October 28, 2019 Author Share Posted October 28, 2019 Just now, Bangarang said: Andy Reid inherited a Chiefs team that won 2 games the year prior. His first year they won 11 games and made the playoffs. This whole nonsense of it takes 4 or 5 years to become a good team is exactly that. I'm not suggesting it would take 4 or 5 years to become an 11 win team. I'm talking about 13, 14, or 15 win teams. I think this Bills team can win 10 or 11 games this year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bangarang Posted October 28, 2019 Share Posted October 28, 2019 2 minutes ago, row_33 said: once every 50 years is not a normative model for pro sports don't go insane if they fail to win the SB the next 6 years in Buffalo.... Sean McVay...Doug Pederson? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Posted October 28, 2019 Share Posted October 28, 2019 In 1988 this might be the case; not now. McD's and Dabol's schemes have some problems, both personnel and tactical. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Virgil Posted October 28, 2019 Share Posted October 28, 2019 So....two nights then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bangarang Posted October 28, 2019 Share Posted October 28, 2019 2 minutes ago, wagon127 said: I'm not suggesting it would take 4 or 5 years to become an 11 win team. I'm talking about 13, 14, or 15 win teams. I think this Bills team can win 10 or 11 games this year. Whether we win 10 games or 15 games, I want sustained success. You don’t have that with a bottom tier offense. McD has proven he can build a good defense. It’s his offense that has been the problem every year and I question whether he knows how to fix it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wagon127 Posted October 28, 2019 Author Share Posted October 28, 2019 Just now, Virgil said: So....two nights then? Maybe 2 fortnights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ngbills Posted October 28, 2019 Share Posted October 28, 2019 15 minutes ago, Bangarang said: Andy Reid inherited a Chiefs team that won 2 games the year prior. His first year they won 11 games and made the playoffs. This whole nonsense of it takes 4 or 5 years to become a good team is exactly that. 13 minutes ago, wagon127 said: I'm not suggesting it would take 4 or 5 years to become an 11 win team. I'm talking about 13, 14, or 15 win teams. I think this Bills team can win 10 or 11 games this year. 15 minutes ago, row_33 said: once every 50 years is not a normative model for pro sports don't go insane if they fail to win the SB the next 6 years in Buffalo.... Groundhogs day forever. Its always the next year and the next year and the next. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted October 28, 2019 Share Posted October 28, 2019 29 minutes ago, Bangarang said: Andy Reid inherited a Chiefs team that won 2 games the year prior. His first year they won 11 games and made the playoffs. This whole nonsense of it takes 4 or 5 years to become a good team is exactly that. It remains to be seen but SF may be an example 2016 2-14 2017 Shanahan takes over. Acquires Jimmy G. 6-10 2018 4-12 (Jimmy G lost to injury early in season) 2019 7-0. Plenty of football left, but barring major injuries they seem pretty legit in Shanahan's 3rd year. LA Rams may be another example 2016 4-12, draft Goff 2017 McVay takes over 11-5 2018 13-3, SB 2019 5-3 and 1 game off pace to claw for a WC spot We don't seem to be in the same place as these teams after 3 years. I don't think the Chiefs were a "once in 50 years" exception to the "takes 4-5 years" rule. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlimShady'sSpaceForce Posted October 28, 2019 Share Posted October 28, 2019 1 hour ago, wagon127 said: Going into this game, I cautioned people who were thinking this was a 13, 14 or 15 win team. It takes more then just talent and a favorable schedule to get there. It takes a mental preparedness that can only come from players and leaders who are accustomed to winning. Almost everybody on this team, is not used to having winning seasons in the NFL. They are going to have ups and downs throughout this season. The Eagles are having such an up and down season. Still not able to handle their super bowl hangover. They have lost to and beaten bad teams, and lost to and beat good teams. The cowboys and Ravens are the same way. I still think this is a 10 or 11 win team. There's no reason to think the sky is falling, and we need to abandon the plan to develop with Josh Allen, and this coaching staff. 1 - some people just want to have fun. Roll with it. 2 - 12 wins can be had. 3 - Most every teams has ups and downs. That is not a revelation. 4 - Joe Gibbs said - When you win a lot of games it is fun. If you get used to it and lose it hurts more. some people are overreacting imo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rocket94 Posted October 28, 2019 Share Posted October 28, 2019 1 hour ago, Socal-805 said: Good points, however I think this is really, probably, a 7-9 team which is playing a very favorable schedule. o Offense - 19 in yards/game. 24 in points/game. Very weak QB play / passing game. Turnovers. o Defense - 5 in points / game - for now. Very good passing D - Bad run D. (See Philly and Dolphins) o S. T. - Horrible - bottom of league. https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/teamst/2019 This is year 3 of the rebuild - looking pretty shaky IMO. One of the big problems that Beane encountered was reshaping this roster. So many changes had to be made...high turnover with so many good players needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mannc Posted October 28, 2019 Share Posted October 28, 2019 1 hour ago, row_33 said: Wild Card and a decent showing that weekend is a great achievement, all things considered. What “things considered”? These guys took over a .500 operation, this is year 3, and we have an almost unbelievably easy schedule in a weakling conference. I’m not seeing the “great achievement “. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billsfan_34 Posted October 28, 2019 Share Posted October 28, 2019 2 hours ago, Jobot said: Agreed. Although my confidence in the run-D is shaken after yesterday's loss. That would be an Achilles heel for a team with a sub-par offense if it doesn't get corrected. Gap control in a 4-3 from the LB’s is huge. Milano got run over a few times and Edmunds just doesnt get his pads low to really stuff someone. Teams are exposing this weakness. 2nd quarter - Eagles ran the stretch play at will. Linemen had there way chipping our D linemen. It was hard to watch. We haven’t created a lot of turnovers this year and we are turning the ball over more than taking it away. Special teams is again pure garbage. On to the Skins- lets hope for some corrections and get the W. 6-2 will not look to bad at the half way point! Go Bills Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBrownBear Posted October 28, 2019 Share Posted October 28, 2019 (edited) We are doing more with less than just about any other team in the league. We are probably two years away from being a legit contender (maybe 1 year if Josh shows a ton of growth in the next 12 months), and I'm fine with that. Overall, I like our trajectory and I trust our coach and GM for the first time in forever. Also, the 1988-1992 Bills all had a game or two (or three) where they absolutely got their teeth kicked in. Outside of historically dominant teams, it's pretty normal for good teams to experience a day or two like yesterday. Edited October 28, 2019 by TheBrownBear Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoTier Posted October 28, 2019 Share Posted October 28, 2019 2 hours ago, wagon127 said: I'm not suggesting it would take 4 or 5 years to become an 11 win team. I'm talking about 13, 14, or 15 win teams. I think this Bills team can win 10 or 11 games this year. The Bills will never be a 13-15 win team under McDermott and Beane because they are not built to compete with the superpowers of the NFL. Their model of relying on the defense to hold the oppositon to fewer than 3 TDs a game isn't realistic when the rules favor offense. Jeez maree -- KC can score 3+ TDs with a backup QB who wasn't even in the league last season; Carolina has gone 4-1 with a backup QB in his second season (who was an UDFA I think); and NO lost their future HOF QB for 5 weeks and STILL went undefeated during that span. Teams like the Saints and Chiefs have backups on offense who are considerably better than ANY offensive starter the Bills have. Teams like San Francisco and New England have backups on defense who could easily put a number of the Bills starters on the bench. More importantly, though, I think that McDermott is a HC who values talent less than scheme and "culture" while Beane puts the bottom line before winning. He wouldn't have been hired unless he shared Russ Brandon's philosophy on "money ball". So many of the moves that the Bills made in 2017 and 2018 were done to save on actual salary expense without regard to how it impacted the team on the field, including the huge amount of "dead cap" space it created against the salary cap. So far in the McDermott/Beane regime, talent has been sacrificed for $$$ and for "culture" --- and it's impacted the offense far more than the defense because lack of talent can't be hidden by schemes on the offensive side of the ball. 2 hours ago, Bangarang said: Whether we win 10 games or 15 games, I want sustained success. You don’t have that with a bottom tier offense. McD has proven he can build a good defense. It’s his offense that has been the problem every year and I question whether he knows how to fix it. I have said in the past and I'll say it again: the Bills have treated the offense like a redheaded stepchild. They spent a fortune in talent and draft capital on a first round QB prospect to whom they gave no support as a rookie because they didn't have an NFL caliber OL or receiving corps. Even today, those units are functional but still below average, and the lack of a solid run game makes things harder for Allen than maybe they should be. Hell, last season, they didn't even bother to hire an experienced QB coach to help Allen; their QB coach last season had one year of professional experience as a QB coach back in the 1980s at some small college program. 1 hour ago, Rocket94 said: One of the big problems that Beane encountered was reshaping this roster. So many changes had to be made...high turnover with so many good players needed. "So many changes had to be made" is a false narrative. It was McDermott and Beane's choice to gut the team instead of building on what they had, especially on the offensive side of the ball. Too many of the players that they didn't think were "good enough" have gone on to play well on other teams throughout the league, and too many of their own choices haven't played up to expectations when they were signed/traded for or drafted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rocket94 Posted October 28, 2019 Share Posted October 28, 2019 Don't get me wrong, I don't want to come across as some apologist for what they have done. I believe they now realize that their work is far from finished. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ngbills Posted October 28, 2019 Share Posted October 28, 2019 (edited) 47 minutes ago, TheBrownBear said: We are doing more with less than just about any other team in the league. We are probably two years away from being a legit contender (maybe 1 year if Josh shows a ton of growth in the next 12 months), and I'm fine with that. Overall, I like our trajectory and I trust our coach and GM for the first time in forever. Also, the 1988-1992 Bills all had a game or two (or three) where they absolutely got their teeth kicked in. Outside of historically dominant teams, it's pretty normal for good teams to experience a day or two like yesterday. 1. Doing more with less - Not sure that is true. Even if it was this is year 3 so whose fault is that? 2. Day or two like yesterday? Under McD there have been way too many. They have 10 losses by more than 14 points in his 39 games. That is more than 1 in 4 are blowouts. Comparison - Rex had 1 in 31 games...Marrone had 3 in his 32 games. Edited October 28, 2019 by ngbills Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJS Posted October 28, 2019 Share Posted October 28, 2019 15 win teams aren't built period. Not even the Pats, the greatest team of all time, does that. They've won 15 or more games only once since 2000 (when they won all their games in 2007). They are usually in the 11 to 13 win range. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
row_33 Posted October 28, 2019 Share Posted October 28, 2019 15 wins total over how many years? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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