Is Star Lotulelei A Liability on the DL?

[LSHMEAB]

3 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Improving the defensive line would be easier accomplished by focusing on the ends rather than the tackles.

I can't argue this. My only gripe OVERALL is that we don't have a premier pass rusher. Beane was most certainly in the market for one, but it didn't pan out. I see a move in the very near future.

 

Star is just Star. I think he's easily upgradable, but not really a "problem."

 

I do think there's merit in discussing a player's worth. It's not like any of us are making decisions on how to proceed.

[{::'KayCeeS::}]

1 minute ago, LSHMEAB said:

I can't argue this. My only gripe OVERALL is that we don't have a premier pass rusher. Beane was most certainly in the market for one, but it didn't pan out. I see a move in the very near future.

 

Star is just Star. I think he's easily upgradable, but not really a "problem."

 

I do think there's merit in discussing a player's worth. It's not like any of us are making decisions on how to proceed.

 

I agree with all this.  I would be shocked if we don't draft a baller edge rusher next year.

 

[GoBills808]

1 minute ago, LSHMEAB said:

I can't argue this. My only gripe OVERALL is that we don't have a premier pass rusher. Beane was most certainly in the market for one, but it didn't pan out. I see a move in the very near future.

 

Star is just Star. I think he's easily upgradable, but not really a "problem."

 

I do think there's merit in discussing a player's worth. It's not like any of us are making decisions on how to proceed.

Who do you think would be a better fit for this defense?

[CardinalScotts]

we're not very football smart

[LSHMEAB]

Just now, GoBills808 said:

Who do you think would be a better fit for this defense?

Any draft pick or FA able to occupy space and a make more than a handful of tackles per season. Haven't spent a whole lot of time looking into names because Star is here for the 2019 season.

[GoBills808]

2 minutes ago, CardinalScotts said:

we're not very football smart

Yeah this has been pretty illuminating tbh

[{::'KayCeeS::}]

3 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

Lol. Great retort. It's a Bills discussion board. I think we want to discuss Bills football and discuss what we as fans are seeing on the field when the Bills play games. That's the whole point of this message thing.??

 

Having a voice doesn't absolve you of being an Idiot.

[Dave Allen]

I trust Beane. If he's not holding his own, he'll be gone after the season and they can use the savings to pay Jordan Phillips.

[Augie]

2 minutes ago, {::'KayCeeS::} said:

 

Having a voice doesn't absolve you of being an Idiot.

 

I’m curious, are you supposed to check with @DC Tom before throwing that out there? 

[CEN-CAL17]

I’d like to see Vincent Taylor called up soon.... Peko I haven’t seen anything yet.

[Thurman#1]

It does seem Lotulelei isn't doing as well this year as he did last year.

 

Is it an injury or something? Hard to know, but if it's just that he's wearing down, they'll be looking to replace him next season. But liability is probably too strong a word.

[DC Tom]

14 minutes ago, Augie said:

 

I’m curious, are you supposed to check with @DC Tom before throwing that out there? 

 

He does.

 

18 minutes ago, {::'KayCeeS::} said:

 

Having a voice doesn't absolve you of being an Idiot.

 

Actually, it does.  Having a voice is a prerequisite for being an idiot.  If it weren't, I'd only have about 5000 posts, not 70,000.  

[Augie]

I’ll be completely honest, I have a hard time judging line play during game day viewing. Can you guys tell in real time (other than the really obvious stuff), do you evaluate watching replays of the broadcast, or do you watch the All-22 to form your opinions. 

 

I’m am NOT good at judging line play in real time with the TV view. If you can do it better, hats off to you. 

[GoBills808]

9 minutes ago, Augie said:

I’ll be completely honest, I have a hard time judging line play during game day viewing. Can you guys tell in real time (other than the really obvious stuff), do you evaluate watching replays of the broadcast, or do you watch the All-22 to form your opinions. 

 

I’m am NOT good at judging line play in real time with the TV view. If you can do it better, hats off to you. 

It's impossible to judge in real time for me, I need to be able to slow down/rewind action from different angles to get what's going on.

[Augie]

1 minute ago, GoBills808 said:

It's impossible to judge in real time for me, I need to be able to slow down/rewind action from different angles to get what's going on.

 

Do you work for the NSA, or have you hacked into the Patriots network? If the latter, I hope you are in some sort of witness protection program! Ernie Adams will track you down! 

[GG]

50 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Who do you think would be a better fit for this defense?

 

Today or in the offseason.  There are plenty of good space eaters available for less than $4 million/yr.  Star makes way too much for a guy who doesn't have the capacity to get to the QB or actually make the play.

[Rocket94]

Star will definately not be here when his contract runs out.

Edited October 25, 2019 by Rocket94

[GoBills808]

5 minutes ago, GG said:

 

Today or in the offseason.  There are plenty of good space eaters available for less than $4 million/yr.  Star makes way too much for a guy who doesn't have the capacity to get to the QB or actually make the play.

Are there, though? 

[Big Turk]

I think a lot of what happened last week was due to the post bye week blues

[GG]

4 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Are there, though? 

 

For the same result that Star has been given?  Absolutely.

 

Note that on the highlights that you linked, Star actually had a full hold of Michel and could hold on.  Or plays where he gets fully pushed back by a single blocker.

 

He's a middling space eater who's nowhere near worth his contract at this point.

[GoBills808]

Just now, GG said:

 

For the same result that Star has been given?  Absolutely.

 

Note that on the highlights that you linked, Star actually had a full hold of Michel and could hold on.  Or plays where he gets fully pushed back by a single blocker.

 

He's a middling space eater who's nowhere near worth his contract at this point.

That play you mention- he engaged his man, then got doubled HARD, and still held gap and got a hold of the RB. That counts as a win for me. And maybe I'm missing something but I don't see him getting pushed back 1v1 a lot.

 

I linked that highlight just as an example of his work against a solid fundamental offensive line. I'd like to see the plays that Joe B used to justify his case against Lotulelei but I can't access the article. 

[CookieG]

Teams average less than 4.0 per carry when running up the middle against the Bills, which is 7th in the NFL.

 

https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/dl/2019#main-content

 

I'm not sure where the liability part comes in.

[Orlando Tim]

How does anyone know his assignments? I know he is not dominant but I doubt he is a liability.

[Buffalo Bills Fan]

52 minutes ago, Augie said:

 

Do you work for the NSA, or have you hacked into the Patriots network? If the latter, I hope you are in some sort of witness protection program! Ernie Adams will track you down! 

 

 

Hell get the FBI to protect him

[Augie]

1 minute ago, Buffalo Bills Fan said:

 

 

Hell get the FBI to protect him

 

The FBI is Barnie Fife compared to Ernie Adams. 

 

That’s even on the SAT now, I hear:

 

The FBI is to Barnie Fife as Ernie Adams is to: 

 

A) Wile E Cayote

B) Elmer Fudd or

C) Yosemite Sam 

 

 

[GG]

51 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

That play you mention- he engaged his man, then got doubled HARD, and still held gap and got a hold of the RB. That counts as a win for me. And maybe I'm missing something but I don't see him getting pushed back 1v1 a lot.

 

I linked that highlight just as an example of his work against a solid fundamental offensive line. I'd like to see the plays that Joe B used to justify his case against Lotulelei but I can't access the article. 

 

The Dolphins started the game with double teaming Star, but went away from it in the second Q.  He was basically neutralized by a single blocker for the rest of the game.  They figured out that it's very easy to just push him out of the way because he cannot stop his momentum once he gets off the snap.  Peko still commanded double teams and made a couple of decent plays knifing down below the block to stop the runner.

 

I don't think you want to die on this Star hill.

[GoBills808]

20 minutes ago, GG said:

 

The Dolphins started the game with double teaming Star, but went away from it in the second Q.  He was basically neutralized by a single blocker for the rest of the game.  They figured out that it's very easy to just push him out of the way because he cannot stop his momentum once he gets off the snap.  Peko still commanded double teams and made a couple of decent plays knifing down below the block to stop the runner.

 

I don't think you want to die on this Star hill.

No. I already explained he got doubled on the Phillips sack right before White INT. That was midway through the third. 

[Thurman#1]

7 hours ago, Turk71 said:

   I said so at the time that this was an absolutely terrible contract. Star's play has been diminishing for years and already had been in the two years before the Bills got him. He had a couple good years in the beginning with the Panthers. His job description and responsibilities haven't changed since then, his performance has.

  He has consistently been one of the lowest rated dts in the league for years now. Before you tell me his job is to eat space realize that he is not the only dt in the league who has that responsibility, but he has consistently been one of the lowest rated at doing that job. It was a horrible contract at signing and it still is now. Beane has made a lot of good moves but this wasn't one of them imo. Nobody is perfect.

  That said, let's hope the Bills find a way to mask that weakness in their line and keep winning.

 

 

A lot of this is nonsense. He hasn't been "one of the lowest rated dts in the league for years now." He just hasn't, except among fans who obsess on measureable stats. He's been doing what they want him to do at a high level for a long time. But there does seem to be some regression this year. He's not doing as well as he had.

 

That is indeed a concern. Is it from injury? Something else we don't know? Is he just wearing down? Hard to know, but yeah, it's a concern.

 

It's been a very good contract till now. McDermott knew what Star was. And gave him that contract. Because he needs a guy who does that in his defense, regardless of the pissing and moaning of fans who want numbers. But if Lotulelei's having problems, the contract might weigh against him if he's no longer living up to it.

Edited October 25, 2019 by Thurman#1

[Happy]

Star is not a liability, but he is not an asset, either.  He is overpaid to be a one dimensional DT, which is occupying space.  Maybe that helps keep blockers off of the LB corps or allow other d-linemen to make plays...I dunno and would have to take the player's testimonials on that.  i do know that Star does not blow up plays in the backfield nor does he get to the QB, and the Bills need this badly.  Star is a Bill until 2022, for better or worse.

[GG]

22 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

No. I already explained he got doubled on the Phillips sack right before White INT. That was midway through the third. 

You can’t be serious?  That sack came solely from Philipps’ timing the snap just right to beat the LG to the hole.   The center picked up Star.    

 

Star is the only DL who does not win matchups or push the OLs back.  He occupies space and sometimes engages a couple of blockers.  Often he gets shoved out of the play completely.  That’s not what a $10 million DT is paid to do.  There isn’t much drop off between him and Peko.

[GoBills808]

7 minutes ago, GG said:

You can’t be serious?  That sack came solely from Philipps’ timing the snap just right to beat the LG to the hole.   The center picked up Star.    

 

Star is the only DL who does not win matchups or push the OLs back.  He occupies space and sometimes engages a couple of blockers.  Often he gets shoved out of the play completely.  That’s not what a $10 million DT is paid to do.  There isn’t much drop off between him and Peko.

I was responding to what you said about how he wasn't getting doubled teamed after the second quarter. I don't dispute Phillips made a great play. But they are fundamentally different players with different roles. If you can bring up some examples of Lotulelei getting shoved out of the play it would be helpful. But if you honestly think he and Peko are comparable I dunno...

 

People have been saying this about Lotulelei since early in Carolina. Kawann Short was constantly explaining to the media how Lotulelei made those Panthers defensive lines/LB units better because the average fan doesn't see it. A lot of the nice plays Edmunds makes are because he gets kept clean- like the TFL in the 2nd v Dolphins when Lotulelei took two blockers to give Edmunds a free run at the RB. Rivera and Kuechly used to comment how those good Panthers defenses ran through Short and Lotulelei, and they weren't flashy DTs back then either but they made things easier on the DEs and linebackers.

 

I don't think he's a superstar anymore but he is still a good piece in this defense and serves a function. I certainly don't think he's a liability.

 

 

 

 

[Thurman#1]

9 hours ago, GG said:

 

For the same result that Star has been given?  Absolutely.

 

Note that on the highlights that you linked, Star actually had a full hold of Michel and could hold on.  Or plays where he gets fully pushed back by a single blocker.

 

He's a middling space eater who's nowhere near worth his contract at this point.

 

 

For the same result Star has given this year? Maybe. Possibly a few. But again, are his results this year due to an injury? Could he easily improve back up to rareified air? Yeah. Will he? Dunno. We don't know why he's having problems this year.

 

For the same result he gave the last couple of years? For $4 mill? No. There just aren't. Or not unless they're on rookie contracts and everyone knows they're underpaid.

 

It's the Parcells "Planet Theory." There are only a few guys on the planet that big and strong who can at the same time satisfy those physical demands. Very very few. And when you get a guy who's not on a rookie contract as a 1-technique for $4 mill, the reason he's so cheap is because he isn't good enough to do what Lotulelei has done up through last year. 

 

 

7 hours ago, GG said:

You can’t be serious?  That sack came solely from Philipps’ timing the snap just right to beat the LG to the hole.   The center picked up Star.    

 

Star is the only DL who does not win matchups or push the OLs back.  He occupies space and sometimes engages a couple of blockers.  Often he gets shoved out of the play completely.  That’s not what a $10 million DT is paid to do.  There isn’t much drop off between him and Peko.

 

 

Yeah, you're wrong about that.

 

They knew who he was. He did the same thing in Carolina, under McDermott. The reason he was brought in again to play in a McDermott defense under McDermott at $10 mill a year is very very simple. McDermott - the coach of an elite defense now for the second time in his career by the way - doesn't agree with you. He needs a guy who's very good at eating space in the middle of his defense, and he considers that function to be worth a great deal more money than you do.

 

In fact, there are several DTs on second contracts as highly paid as Lotulelei or even higher, whose function is mostly to be a space eater. 

 

So you're wrong. You're right in that that's not what all $10 million DTs are paid to do. Plenty of those guys are 3-techs or 1-techs or rush specialists or penetrators. But it is exactly what several $10 million DTs are paid to do. The fact that you and some fans don't like that doesn't much enter into it. It is happening, right now, on several defenses in the NFL, defenses with coaches who are not unhappy about the situation.

 

 

 

And you're wrong as well that Lotulelei had nothing to do with the Phillips sack. Phillips cut between the LG and the center. As you say, the center did indeed go double-team Star. And that was a major help to Phillips. The center had a much better blocking angle on Phillips, slightly inside him on a play when Phillips went slightly inside. The guard was outside him and had a much worse angle. It's why Phillips looked like he was running through a hole. He was, the hole created when the center went to block Star, the hole the guard couldn't get inside quickly enough to fill.  And that's what happens when the opponent feels they have to double the space eater. It leaves other defenders with more advantageous situations. Sometimes someone like Phillips can take advantage. Did Phillips make a great play? Yup. Did the presence of Lotulelei holding his ground against a double help make that great play possible? Absolutely.

 

Now, whether Lotulelei's productivity has fallen enough that he's no longer worth the money ... hey, that's a legitimate question.

Edited October 25, 2019 by Thurman#1

[GoBills808]

1 hour ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

They knew who he was. He did the same thing in Carolina, under McDermott. The reason he was brought in again to play in a McDermott defense under McDermott at $10 mill a year is very very simple. McDermott - the coach of an elite defense now for the second time in his career by the way - doesn't agree with you. He needs a guy who's very good at eating space in the middle of his defense, and he considers that function to be worth a great deal more money than you do.

 

In fact, there are several DTs on second contracts as highly paid as Lotulelei or even higher, whose function is mostly to be a space eater. 

 

So you're wrong. You're right in that that's not what all $10 million DTs are paid to do. Plenty of those guys are 3-techs or 1-techs or rush specialists or penetrators. But it is exactly what several $10 million DTs are paid to do. The fact that you and some fans don't like that doesn't much enter into it. It is happening, right now, on several defenses in the NFL, defenses with coaches who are not unhappy about the situation.

 

Now, whether Lotulelei's productivity has fallen enough that he's no longer worth the money ... hey, that's a legitimate question.

 

Well put. I listed a few of the guys off the top of my head who fit the category a couple pages back, and they're all around the same $$ figure per yearly average. It's not like he's some crazy outlier.

 

This defense has been a top unit since Lotulelei got here. I'm not saying he gets all the credit or anything but McDermott knows defense and was comfortable bringing him in on that contract. The guy is an anchor and he's only 29. He just happens to play a position that doesn't get a ton of credit.

[gr8billsfan]

Beane should release or trade him or restructure his contract. He’s getting side blocked easier than a 12 year old girl out there. 

[Chandler#81]

3 hours ago, gr8billsfan said:

Beane should release or trade him or restructure his contract. He’s getting side blocked easier than a 12 year old girl out there. 

When’s the last time you side blocked a 12 year old girl??

 

Thank you, @Thurman#1. Not that your insight will change anyone’s mind. You just happen to be accurate.

[GG]

12 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

Man...Damon Harrison, Malcom Brown, Linval Joseph, Eddie Goldman would definitely disagree with you.

 

All these guys do much more than eat up space and actually show up on the stat sheet.  FWIW, Malcom Brown makes about half of Star's salary for more production. 

 

You dispute that good space eating DTs can be had for $4 million/year, yet Danny Shelton was available for a song this offseason, as was Hankins.  

 

You are arguing against visible game tape that clearly shows Star's diminished utility and then bring up comparable players who do more for less pay.   Star was the #57 ranked DT in '17, and coincidentally that's his Spotrac rank of DT salary value this year.  That and not seeing any drop off in the defense when Peko is on the field indicates that either Star is not that good, overpaid, or both.

Edited October 25, 2019 by GG

[dave mcbride]

8 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

For the same result Star has given this year? Maybe. Possibly a few. But again, are his results this year due to an injury? Could he easily improve back up to rareified air? Yeah. Will he? Dunno. We don't know why he's having problems this year.

 

For the same result he gave the last couple of years? For $4 mill? No. There just aren't. Or not unless they're on rookie contracts and everyone knows they're underpaid.

 

It's the Parcells "Planet Theory." There are only a few guys on the planet that big and strong who can at the same time satisfy those physical demands. Very very few. And when you get a guy who's not on a rookie contract as a 1-technique for $4 mill, the reason he's so cheap is because he isn't good enough to do what Lotulelei has done up through last year. 

 

 

 

 

Yeah, you're wrong about that.

 

They knew who he was. He did the same thing in Carolina, under McDermott. The reason he was brought in again to play in a McDermott defense under McDermott at $10 mill a year is very very simple. McDermott - the coach of an elite defense now for the second time in his career by the way - doesn't agree with you. He needs a guy who's very good at eating space in the middle of his defense, and he considers that function to be worth a great deal more money than you do.

 

In fact, there are several DTs on second contracts as highly paid as Lotulelei or even higher, whose function is mostly to be a space eater. 

 

So you're wrong. You're right in that that's not what all $10 million DTs are paid to do. Plenty of those guys are 3-techs or 1-techs or rush specialists or penetrators. But it is exactly what several $10 million DTs are paid to do. The fact that you and some fans don't like that doesn't much enter into it. It is happening, right now, on several defenses in the NFL, defenses with coaches who are not unhappy about the situation.

 

 

 

And you're wrong as well that Lotulelei had nothing to do with the Phillips sack. Phillips cut between the LG and the center. As you say, the center did indeed go double-team Star. And that was a major help to Phillips. The center had a much better blocking angle on Phillips, slightly inside him on a play when Phillips went slightly inside. The guard was outside him and had a much worse angle. It's why Phillips looked like he was running through a hole. He was, the hole created when the center went to block Star, the hole the guard couldn't get inside quickly enough to fill.  And that's what happens when the opponent feels they have to double the space eater. It leaves other defenders with more advantageous situations. Sometimes someone like Phillips can take advantage. Did Phillips make a great play? Yup. Did the presence of Lotulelei holding his ground against a double help make that great play possible? Absolutely.

 

Now, whether Lotulelei's productivity has fallen enough that he's no longer worth the money ... hey, that's a legitimate question.

Lotuleilei actually produced in Carolina up until his final season there, which is when he began his decline into the ultimate JAG. On the positive side, he knows his assignments and doesn’t get injured (no small thing). But as I said earlier, NFL players are paid to make plays. He is not even close to being a disruptor, and his lack of ability to pressure the QB is one reason why the Bills’ sack numbers are pretty low (13).

[Dopey]

9 hours ago, GG said:

You can’t be serious?  That sack came solely from Philipps’ timing the snap just right to beat the LG to the hole.   The center picked up Star.    

 

Star is the only DL who does not win matchups or push the OLs back.  He occupies space and sometimes engages a couple of blockers.  Often he gets shoved out of the play completely.  That’s not what a $10 million DT is paid to do.  There isn’t much drop off between him and Peko.

I just spent some time watching some film of every game this year. A lot of what we say is subjective, but Peko is not good. To say there isn't much of a drop off between the 2 is crazy. In the film I watched, Star gave up ground on 2 plays, 1/2 yd on one and 1 yd on the other. He was constantly taking on double teams and doing a really good job. He is pushing guys back, not all the time, but it's not even close to what you make it loo like.  Phillips is a nice addition, but when I saw him in there he was either the only interior guy(passing downs) or in place of Oliver, not Star. When Phillips and Star are in together, you can easily see Star is more stout than Phillips in his play. The Dolphins 1st td was Phillips getting pushed back, not Star. Between you and Buscaglia, I'm not sure what your watching to say he's terrible or even a liability. On Phillip's sack, at least 2 people explained how Star's presence helped, I could be the 3rd, but the film speaks for itself. Is he overpaid, probably. A liability, no way. Peko .

[GoBills808]

14 hours ago, GG said:

You can’t be serious?  That sack came solely from Philipps’ timing the snap just right to beat the LG to the hole.   The center picked up Star.    

 

Star is the only DL who does not win matchups or push the OLs back.  He occupies space and sometimes engages a couple of blockers.  Often he gets shoved out of the play completely.  That’s not what a $10 million DT is paid to do.  There isn’t much drop off between him and Peko.

Went back through the game footage. The sack came from Phillips' timing the snap, yes, but almost 100% he was the TE's assignment in motion not LG, tried to get him on the wham which should speak to how they view blocking priorities vis a vis Buffalo DTs respectively. 

 

Lotulelei doesn't 'sometimes engage a couple blockers', he gets doubled a lot and usually maintains ground. Phillips gets physically lifted off his feet and spun around backwards on the occasions he faced doubles vs Miami that I saw. Didn't see Lotulelei get 'shoved out of the play completely' once. As for there not being much drop off between him and Peko...difference is stark imo. 

 

 

First play is a Walton run where Lotulelei takes on a double, stacks/sheds C...that's a win. That's his job, that's what he's there for. The play succeeds because Edmunds takes a bad step right. 

 

Last play is Peko and Phillips both getting wiped out by Dolphins offensive line for one of the cleanest pockets you'll ever see. It looks like Peko tries to take 2 on a twist with Lawson but he's not strong and gets turned sideways immediately. Phillips gets stood up and spun around.

[GG]

1 hour ago, GoBills808 said:

Went back through the game footage. The sack came from Phillips' timing the snap, yes, but almost 100% he was the TE's assignment in motion not LG, tried to get him on the wham which should speak to how they view blocking priorities vis a vis Buffalo DTs respectively. 

 

Lotulelei doesn't 'sometimes engage a couple blockers', he gets doubled a lot and usually maintains ground. Phillips gets physically lifted off his feet and spun around backwards on the occasions he faced doubles vs Miami that I saw. Didn't see Lotulelei get 'shoved out of the play completely' once. As for there not being much drop off between him and Peko...difference is stark imo. 

 

 

First play is a Walton run where Lotulelei takes on a double, stacks/sheds C...that's a win. That's his job, that's what he's there for. The play succeeds because Edmunds takes a bad step right. 

 

Last play is Peko and Phillips both getting wiped out by Dolphins offensive line for one of the cleanest pockets you'll ever see. It looks like Peko tries to take 2 on a twist with Lawson but he's not strong and gets turned sideways immediately. Phillips gets stood up and spun around.

 

I don't think it's fair to compare running plays to passing plays, especially when Bills don't even think of inserting Star in on passing downs (which should give you a hint of what they think of his abilities).  If you go through the running plays, you won't see too much difference between the two, and Peko is slightly better in actually penetrating into the backfield.

 

Funny how you're turning this thread into a slam fest of J Philips, who's been playing well and leads the team in sacks.

 

If I have time this weekend, I'll put together reel of Star's greatest hits for all to analyze.