Mark Schofield: Precarious Handling of Young Quarterbacks

[blacklabel]

Good read. Goff and McVay's setup has been known for a while and I've wondered if other teams have tried that. Leave it to Belichick, of course, to find the exact right way to defend against that. 

[Just Joshin']

This is the type of topic and discussion that make TBD a great place to visit.  Members who start junk threads should use this as a model.

 

[Buffalo Junction]

2 hours ago, H2o said:

I have been very reluctant to recognize Goff as one of the top young QB's in this league for the fact that McVay is the brains behind the operation. I think that the blueprint provided by a BB understudy like Patricia has pretty much sealed that team's fate. Couple that with an aging, suspect OL, and Todd Gurley's rapid decline leave you with what you see this year. Now if Goff can become self-sufficient, making the adjustments, reads, and checks at the line himself then things may be different down the road. Many times he looks like a deer in the headlights out there. He just got paid a ton of money by LA though for basically being a puppet. I love what I have seen from Josh this year, despite the mistakes made, and see true growth in our young QB. One would be a fool to say that they haven't seen improvement in Jackson as well, even though I worry about him reverting to his old ways the further we get into the season. Right now he and Josh are looking like the top two QB's from last year's draft with Mayfield taking a step back and Darnold looking like the same player from his Junior year at USC. 

 

In this day and age no one is going to sit a QB for multiple years ala Aaron Rodgers. Front office and coaching leashes are much shorter now than they used to be before. Every regime that comes in wants their guy at the helm and they basically sink or swim from that. See Kingsbury and the Arizona Cardinals. You have to build around your young QB. You have to put them in situations to succeed. You have to play off of his strengths and hopefully build until the weaknesses are no longer that. Outside of Daboll calling in a few head scratchers at times, I feel that is exactly what we are doing with Josh and you can see the improvement from year one to year two. I see improvement in the same manner with Lamar, though him running as much as he does and coming back to earth since the Miami game make me wonder if it is sustainable. Even Vick, who was built like a RB, started coming up with injuries due to that playing style. But what can you do if you are Baltimore? You work with him to continue to make him better, but you have to let him do what he does out there on the field. 

 

Another thing to consider when looking at today's QB's is the college game itself. It's mainly Spread formations, RPO, a lot of dual threat QB's, and not really much traditional QB play anymore. Where a QB has 5 to 7 seconds at times in college to read a defense, and allow things to open up, you only have 3 in the NFL for the most part on any given play. Where guys in college can wait for their guy to come open so they can throw the ball, now they are forced to read where the man will be open and throw with anticipation. Many of these young QB's have a hard time with that, processing the information from pre-snap to the release of the pass. All of the greats have had the mental aptitude to succeed in the game. Brady, Manning, Brees, Marino, Kelly, Montana, Rodgers, Steve Young, Ben Ro, Favre, Rivers, and the rest are/were very cerebral in their approach processing what they see on the field quickly. With the way college offenses are run these days there aren't many who are developed for those 3 or 4 years in this regard in the college game. 

Rodgers was a unicorn. I can’t recall another time when a team with a HOF QB had a possible #1 overall QB slide into the 20’s and become available. Barring a horrible bowl game injury to a highly touted draft prospect it’s unlikely to ever happen again.  
 

This team seems to be walking the fine line with Allen; giving him everything he can handle slowly expanding the playbook and schemes week to week. I keep thinking about Daboll mentioning how the Pats offense works. How they don’t run many new schemes late in the year, but rather recycle things that have worked previously. We’ll see how this develops (pun intended) over time. 
 

Jackson is interesting as well. The Ravens seem to be all in on fully exploiting his running talents while slowly increasing the passing scheme complexity. It appears that their approach is to let Jackson ball out on the run to stress defenses early in his career while gaining experience and recognition with the hope that he ultimately develops into a solid pocket passer before the rookie contract is up. My big question there is “will the league figure out Roman’s system again?” His passing schemes aren’t anywhere near his running schemes and every QB he’s coached seems to peak in year 2 or 3: Kaep, Taylor.... 

[Buffalo Junction]

2 hours ago, billybob71 said:

This is exactly how i feel you gotta let the kid play and learn. Coach him up during the week but on Sunday the QB should be in control of the offense not a guy on the sideline. Let him fail at times in order to learn and come back more prepared and dont take away his natural ability and stifle his creativity. But coaches are on such a short leash and quickly on the hot seat and fans have zero patience to let a guy take his lumps everything is now now now in our society its just the way it is. I actually think the Bills are doing a pretty good job walking this fine line with Allen. Not over coaching just trying to refine whats already there and give him freedom to audible and make him read defenses, dont be so afraid to fail that you play scared with zero aggression, we have all seen this approach way to many times since Kelly.

I feel like McD ended up with the perfect situation to let things evolve naturally. Rex disaster, cap dump, break the drought with deficient talent, QB injuries, start the rawest rookie the league has seen. Now they’re 5-1 on the backs of a great defense and young QB who will drive you crazy for 3 then show up with a box of chocolates in the 4th. They grabbed the right QB for this city. This fan base would be eating Mayfield or Rosen alive due to their pre-draft cockiness. 

Edited October 23, 2019 by Buffalo Junction

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

this ties in with an ESPN article 

 

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/27902465/top-draft-picks-crossroads-went-wrong-winston-mariota

 

Top draft picks at a crossroads: What went wrong for Winston and Mariota

[yungmack]

Thanks for posting that rarest of things, an article that actually teaches us something useful.

[C.Biscuit97]

The saying is you ruin more quarterbacks than you develop. I definitely have doubts about Allen and I have doubts about some of offensive scouting/ evaluations.  That said, we built a great defense where Allen isn’t forced to win games himself.  I would like to see the next step of Allen dominating a game from start to finish. But overall, Buffalo is a a pretty solid place for a young qb.

[Ethan in Cleveland]

6 hours ago, IgotBILLStopay said:

Aaron Rodgers and Mahomes are the poster boys for having a QB sit and learn. Brady, Josh Allen (when he was hurt last year), Kyle Allen (this year) all benefited from sitting for a bit. Yet the Mannings, Luck, Russell Wilson, Dak Prescott are examples of throwing a QB into the deep end right away.

 

Bottomline - every QB is different and no one method will work for everyone. That said, the article is very well written. I did not know the specifics of the Rams with Goff and it makes for an interesting read. Maybe Darnold had the same issue vs. the Pats, eh?

You nailed it. 

None of these guys know anything more than the casual fan when evaluating a QB. Im serious about that statement. Every team passed on Brady including the Patriots. Kurt Warner, Jamarcus Russell. The list is endless of the hits and misses by supposed experts.  We as fans see the college games too. Many of us know the level of competition these guys face and the silly numbers they put up against inferior competition. 

Mark my words the next Oregon bust will be Herbert. This guy doesn't have a single signature win or play in his entire career. His yards come from dump offs and WR screens. He will be next in a long line of Oregon bust QBs with the notable exception of Fouts.

[section122]

2 minutes ago, Ethan in Portland said:

 

Mark my words the next Oregon bust will be Herbert. This guy doesn't have a single signature win or play in his entire career. His yards come from dump offs and WR screens. He will be next in a long line of Oregon bust QBs with the notable exception of Fouts.

 

Also not a fan of his.  I like to watch QBs in college more so than any other position especially when they are touted as potential high picks.  Herbert doesn't do it for me.  When he is pressured he is absolutely terrible.

[K-9]

25 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

The saying is you ruin more quarterbacks than you develop. I definitely have doubts about Allen and I have doubts about some of offensive scouting/ evaluations.  That said, we built a great defense where Allen isn’t forced to win games himself.  I would like to see the next step of Allen dominating a game from start to finish. But overall, Buffalo is a a pretty solid place for a young qb.

And yet Allen has led a 4th quarter comeback or a come from behind victory in 7 of his 17 starts. Hmm.

[FireChans]

2 minutes ago, K-9 said:

And yet Allen has led a 4th quarter comeback or a come from behind victory in 7 of his 17 starts. Hmm.

He probably wouldn’t have needed those comebacks if he didn’t turn it over multiple times vs the Jets, or that boneheaded TO vs the Bengals. Glad he has the ability to overcome his own mistakes though.

[K-9]

1 minute ago, FireChans said:

He probably wouldn’t have needed those comebacks if he didn’t turn it over multiple times vs the Jets, or that boneheaded TO vs the Bengals. Glad he has the ability to overcome his own mistakes though.

 

Are you really glad about that? Really? Somehow it just doesn’t ring true when you say it. 

 

[ProcessTruster]

10 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

It's supposed to cut off 15 seconds into the 30 second playclock eg 15 seconds before the snap

 

So what the Rams were doing was coming to the line quickly, which forced the D to come to the line quickly.  Then McVay would make the read and change the play before the (legal) radio cut off.

 

[Rumor was, and there was enough "smoke" about it that it may be true, that early on in Brady**'s career, the Patriots*** found a way to circumvent the radio shutoff (2nd radio perhaps?) and Belicheck**** was able to help Brady up until right before the snap.  He doesn't need that now, of course, but even for an experienced QB having an "eye in the sky" who can quickly spot and decode defensive patterns would be invaluable. 

 

Especially if you've been videotaping other team's practices for extra help indecoding their defensive play call signals.]

so when the playclock is down to 15 the headsets have to be turned off... thanks.. i'll pay much closer attention inside and outside of that mark ... "Omaha" means a lot more to me now...

 

Edited October 24, 2019 by ProcessTruster

[That's No Moon]

So Sean McVey develops QBS by NOT developing QBs. He welds the training wheels on permanently.

[HOUSE]

14 hours ago, Hue5711 said:

I second that, perfect coffee read.

 

 

 

I love the blue lettering on the black background...really made reading enjoyable.

[ProcessTruster]

13 hours ago, H2o said:

I have been very reluctant to recognize Goff as one of the top young QB's in this league for the fact that McVay is the brains behind the operation. I think that the blueprint provided by a BB understudy like Patricia has pretty much sealed that team's fate. Couple that with an aging, suspect OL, and Todd Gurley's rapid decline leave you with what you see this year. Now if Goff can become self-sufficient, making the adjustments, reads, and checks at the line himself then things may be different down the road. Many times he looks like a deer in the headlights out there. He just got paid a ton of money by LA though for basically being a puppet. I love what I have seen from Josh this year, despite the mistakes made, and see true growth in our young QB. One would be a fool to say that they haven't seen improvement in Jackson as well, even though I worry about him reverting to his old ways the further we get into the season. Right now he and Josh are looking like the top two QB's from last year's draft with Mayfield taking a step back and Darnold looking like the same player from his Junior year at USC. 

 

In this day and age no one is going to sit a QB for multiple years ala Aaron Rodgers. Front office and coaching leashes are much shorter now than they used to be before. Every regime that comes in wants their guy at the helm and they basically sink or swim from that. See Kingsbury and the Arizona Cardinals. You have to build around your young QB. You have to put them in situations to succeed. You have to play off of his strengths and hopefully build until the weaknesses are no longer that. Outside of Daboll calling in a few head scratchers at times, I feel that is exactly what we are doing with Josh and you can see the improvement from year one to year two. I see improvement in the same manner with Lamar, though him running as much as he does and coming back to earth since the Miami game make me wonder if it is sustainable. Even Vick, who was built like a RB, started coming up with injuries due to that playing style. But what can you do if you are Baltimore? You work with him to continue to make him better, but you have to let him do what he does out there on the field. 

 

Another thing to consider when looking at today's QB's is the college game itself. It's mainly Spread formations, RPO, a lot of dual threat QB's, and not really much traditional QB play anymore. Where a QB has 5 to 7 seconds at times in college to read a defense, and allow things to open up, you only have 3 in the NFL for the most part on any given play. Where guys in college can wait for their guy to come open so they can throw the ball, now they are forced to read where the man will be open and throw with anticipation. Many of these young QB's have a hard time with that, processing the information from pre-snap to the release of the pass. All of the greats have had the mental aptitude to succeed in the game. Brady, Manning, Brees, Marino, Kelly, Montana, Rodgers, Steve Young, Ben Ro, Favre, Rivers, and the rest are/were very cerebral in their approach processing what they see on the field quickly. With the way college offenses are run these days there aren't many who are developed for those 3 or 4 years in this regard in the college game. 

yeah but what if Daboll is calling all the plays into Josh's headset at the line?   what exact progress is Josh making if he's just a puppet on a string like Goff was???

[H2o]

29 minutes ago, ProcessTruster said:

yeah but what if Daboll is calling all the plays into Josh's headset at the line?   what exact progress is Josh making if he's just a puppet on a string like Goff was???

He's not. I haven't seen a single report where that is the case. On the other hand, this fact has been widely known about McVay and Goff since he took over. 

Edited October 24, 2019 by H2o

[SoTier]

21 hours ago, Buffalo Junction said:

Rodgers was a unicorn. I can’t recall another time when a team with a HOF QB had a possible #1 overall QB slide into the 20’s and become available. Barring a horrible bowl game injury to a highly touted draft prospect it’s unlikely to ever happen again.  
 

This team seems to be walking the fine line with Allen; giving him everything he can handle slowly expanding the playbook and schemes week to week. I keep thinking about Daboll mentioning how the Pats offense works. How they don’t run many new schemes late in the year, but rather recycle things that have worked previously. We’ll see how this develops (pun intended) over time. 
 

Jackson is interesting as well. The Ravens seem to be all in on fully exploiting his running talents while slowly increasing the passing scheme complexity. It appears that their approach is to let Jackson ball out on the run to stress defenses early in his career while gaining experience and recognition with the hope that he ultimately develops into a solid pocket passer before the rookie contract is up. My big question there is “will the league figure out Roman’s system again?” His passing schemes aren’t anywhere near his running schemes and every QB he’s coached seems to peak in year 2 or 3: Kaep, Taylor.... 

 

The success or failure of any offensive (or defensive) system usually depends upon the pieces that the OC (or DC) has to work into that system.  I think that in Roman's case, neither Kaepernick nor Taylor were good enough to sustain it. 

 

20 hours ago, SlimShady'sGhost said:

this ties in with an ESPN article 

 

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/27902465/top-draft-picks-crossroads-went-wrong-winston-mariota

 

Top draft picks at a crossroads: What went wrong for Winston and Mariota

 

What I got from the ESPN article is that neither Winston nor Mariota developed enough since their rookie/sophomore seasons to be considered competent NFL QBs much less than excellent ones.   Neither seems to have improved/overcome some of their worse flaws, and the situations of their teams -- coaching changes, talent levels, etc -- only obscure their failures.  In Mariota's case, his frequent injuries have been used as an excuse for him, but at least some of those injuries occurred because he takes too many sacks because of flaws in his own game.  

[SoTier]

18 hours ago, K-9 said:

 

Are you really glad about that? Really? Somehow it just doesn’t ring true when you say it. 

 

 

Are you personally offended that a poster DARES to view Allen with any kind of objectivity rather than subscribing to your "Josh Allen can do no wrong" hero worship mantra?

 

[BringBackFlutie]

On 10/23/2019 at 7:17 AM, ProcessTruster said:

Wow, so McVay was changing the play in Goff's headset at the line?   Wow, didn't know Goff was a total robot.   So McVay maybe ruined him by not allowing him to learn from mistakes, not allowing him to checkdown, etc. based on what the defense did?   McVay simply changed the play at the line based on the defense McVay saw and Goff just obeyed?   That kind of control?   Wow...  Maybe that is why young QBs seem to be running around a little lost if the original read isn't there? 

 

did not know the headset is not on all the time.. never knew it cuts off at a certain time in the pre play.  Does anyone know what the headset turn off timing is??  That would be super good to know when watching the play clock wind down.  Interesting.    Thanks OP.    Does Daboll do this with Allen?   I hope not.   If he's just a puppet on a string, how much and by when will he really learn to do on this own? 

 

Doubt this ruined Goff.  It helped develop Brady.  Remember that the Pats were caught keeping their headsets on beyond the allowed period when Brady was younger?  He had his hand held on pre-snap reads for quite a while.  I think it worked like training wheels for him.