Notre Dame Cathedral on fire

[ExiledInIllinois]

41 minutes ago, Turk71 said:

Never been to the R&L but there were a couple of dive bars on Gibson St. across from the market us market maintenance workers would sneak off to when my uncle, Redlinski, and friends would go to the R&L. Most of us were underage, I was 15/16, but had no problem getting served. This was around '77, those bars are gone now.

Could have been much worse, thankfully they saved the building.

Yeah... The stone ain't going... Read about the frame work... It is much worse!

[The Senator]

44 minutes ago, Turk71 said:

Never been to the R&L but there were a couple of dive bars on Gibson St. across from the market us market maintenance workers would sneak off to when my uncle, Redlinski, and friends would go to the R&L. Most of us were underage, I was 15/16, but had no problem getting served. This was around '77, those bars are gone now.

 

Not all of ‘em are gone, but yeah.

 

I’m a couple years older - by ‘77  I was 18 and, at that time, legal - but we never had a problem getting served at Merlin’s when I was sixteen. Neighborhood bars could get away with sh*t that just wouldn’t fly elsewhere.  You had a few bucks, you’d get served.

 

When I go to The Market this week to buy our Easter ham, and fresh polish sausage from Lupa’s or Camelia’s (Redlinski fled to Cheektowaga years ago), some freshly ground horseradish, maybe some sponge candy and Crystal Beach suckers, I’ll scout the hood to see what’s left.

.

Edited April 16, 2019 by The Senator

[apuszczalowski]

42 minutes ago, Turk71 said:

Could have been much worse, thankfully they saved the building.

I find photos of fire damage to be fastening but they also creep me out, especially something like this, an old church.

I'm not surprised that alot of the building structure itself survived being stone/concrete. Although with the building being filled with alot of wood fixtures, and some wood framing thats very old, it can take forever to fully extinguish a fire.

[ExiledInIllinois]

1 minute ago, apuszczalowski said:

I find photos of fire damage to be fastening but they also creep me out, especially something like this, an old church.

I'm not surprised that alot of the building structure itself survived being stone/concrete. Although with the building being filled with alot of wood fixtures, and some wood framing thats very old, it can take forever to fully extinguish a fire.

Agree.

 

Amazing... With all the candles in that joint down through the centuries, it is taken down (okay gutted) in 2019.  2019, you would think risk of fire much lower now?

[The Senator]

17 minutes ago, apuszczalowski said:

I find photos of fire damage to be fastening but they also creep me out, especially something like this, an old church.

I'm not surprised that alot of the building structure itself survived being stone/concrete. Although with the building being filled with alot of wood fixtures, and some wood framing thats very old, it can take forever to fully extinguish a fire.

 

The recently restored pipe organ had over 8000 pipes, all in wooden cabinetry - plus the bellows and 5-manual console.  The carvings were wood, the doors were wood, the ceiling was wood, the pews were wood. (Yes, they had pews in the transept and choir, in the nave they had wooden chairs.)  All that wood was old, very dry, and would ignite quickly, I’d imagine.

 

I hope they can save and restore it, but I’m not optimistic.

. 

[Marv's Neighbor]

So sad to see that happen to such an iconic landmark.  We were last there on St Patrick's day, 2013.   Hopefully, when it's daylight there, they can pinpoint the cause, and see what's salvageable.  It will be rebuilt, but not with wood this time.

 

I know a Fire Inspector in NYC who told me that they call the roof of St Patrick's Cathedral, the Lumber Yard.  That was just remodeled too, and they added a water misting system on the wood ceiling.

[Buffalo Barbarian]

9 hours ago, DaBillsFanSince1973 said:

I read somewhere that it was starting to crumble before this fire.

 

here is some info on that. this fire certainly made the possibility of restoration near impossible?

 

 

Crumbling Notre-Dame cathedral needs €100m from donors to 'avert collapse'

 

Paris' Notre-Dame cathedral faces collapse unless donors stump up €100 million (£87 million) to conduct urgent repair work on its flying buttresses, spire, stained-glass windows, gargoyles and stonework, conservationists have warned.

 

Victor Hugo, who helped save the cathedral almost two centuries ago with his novel The Hunchback of Notre-Dame, would be turning his grave if he could see the state of the cathedral today, they told the Telegraph.

 

 

"Police in Paris say the cause of the massive fire enveloping the spire of Notre Dame Cathedral isn’t yet known."

 

The Latest on a fire at Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris (all times local):  7:55 p.m.

 

the Vatican has Trillions, they could easily afford to build a new one.

 

 

[Buffalo Barbarian]

8 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

 

Pretty much my feelings...if you want it to last forever sans major earthquake/war, build it out of stone. Once you start introducing wood, glass, plaster etc, yeah it's pretty but you're building in a shelf life too. 

 

Some report mentioned they were lacking funds for the restoration...anyone happen to know how much fire insurance they had on it? 

 

https://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/vatican/vatican_billions.htm

 

 

https://www.amazon.com/Vatican-Billions-Avro-Manhattan/dp/0937958166

 

 

[sherpa]

3 hours ago, BuffaloBud said:

Really?  You ever been there?  In person?

 

Ya. Lots.

Only in the cathedral a few times, but used to cut across Lle de la Cite frequently to get to the left bank and Latin Quarter/Sorbonne area.

[Turk71]

3 hours ago, The Senator said:

 

Not all of ‘em are gone, but yeah.

 

I’m a couple years older - by ‘77  I was 18 and, at that time, legal - but we never had a problem getting served at Merlin’s when I was sixteen. Neighborhood bars could get away with sh*t that just wouldn’t fly elsewhere.  You had a few bucks, you’d get served.

 

When I go to The Market this week to buy our Easter ham, and fresh polish sausage from Lupa’s or Camelia’s (Redlinski fled to Cheektowaga years ago), some freshly ground horseradish, maybe some sponge candy and Crystal Beach suckers, I’ll scout the hood to see what’s left.

.

Where I grew up in SB you could get in the bars at 16 if they liked you. When I graduated 8th grade they served us pitchers of beer at a few of the parties. We used to go to Merlins during free mods senior year. I made a fake sheriff's card in my backyard when I was 16 with a red blanket and a polaroid that got me into bars outside my neighborhood. Mickey Rats in Angola, Mulligans Beach Club, Brick Bar Allentown, etc. It fell apart eventually and was confiscated at Mulligans Sunset Beach a week before my 18th birthday.☺️

[Shamrock]

14 hours ago, \GoBillsInDallas/ said:

https://www.lemonde.fr/societe/article/2019/04/15/incendie-en-cours-dans-la-cathedrale-notre-dame-de-paris_5450533_3224.html

 

 

 

Claude Drollo and Quasimodo brought it to life so many years ago. 

Wow, it’s survived a lot of history. 

I understand that Francois Pinault is chipping in a lazy $100,000,000 Euros.  Guess being married to Salma Hayek, he’s already won the lottery of life.

 

[Nextmanup]

Sounds like the reconstruction funding effort is off to a 300 million Euro head start.   

 

From BBC:

 

Billionaire François-Henri Pinault, chairman and CEO of the Kering group that owns the Gucci and Yves Saint Laurent fashion brands, pledged €100m (£86m; $113m) towards rebuilding Notre-Dame, AFP news agency reports.

 

Another €200m was pledged by Bernard Arnault's family and their company LVMH - a business empire which includes Louis Vuitton and Sephora - on Tuesday morning, according to Reuters news agency.

 

The French charity Fondation du Patrimoine is launching an international appeal for funds for the cathedral, a Unesco World Heritage site.

[Bill from NYC]

https://www.newsweek.com/spate-attacks-catholic-churches-france-sees-altars-desecrated-christ-statue-1370800?fbclid=IwAR0yYTV96wVuhmKAVemx4pAkyiaFnHhbhQkd7KJv5u3AIk3PCMzlp-OkIW4

 

What a coincidence!

[Ridgewaycynic2013]

9 hours ago, Buffalo Barbarian said:

 

the Vatican has Trillions, they could easily afford to build a new one.

 

 

I wonder what a skybox will go for?  Annual seat licensing?

*

One can hardly wait for all the conspiracy theories regarding the fire’s origin to begin floating around.

[apuszczalowski]

5 minutes ago, Ridgewaycynic2013 said:

I wonder what a skybox will go for?  Annual seat licensing?

*

One can hardly wait for all the conspiracy theories regarding the fire’s origin to begin floating around.

It's already started. (Just look above you)

 

 Close to one of the biggest catholic holidays, start of holy week, other churches being vandalized. Of course it was also undergoing massive renovations to the area where the fire started which is much more difficult to access then where the damage and vandalism was done in other churches. It's easy to assume that it must be terrorist (seen many comments already just saying it was muslims) and not a construction accident.

 

Some comments I read said it couldnt have been from the work cause workers left 2 hours before they think it started. Of course in an old structure like that it doesnt matter because it can take time for a fire to actually start flaming. I saw a fire that was caused by a discarded cigarette butt thrown by a roofer off a roof that was blown into an attic space during the day. The home owner noticed her attic was on fire around 10-11pm that night.

 

Depending on the damage and the cooperation from the contractors/workers, it may never be known how it actually started. 

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

What?  No one had insurance on this piece of History?  

 

[Marv's Neighbor]

4 minutes ago, ShadyBillsFan said:

What?  No one had insurance on this piece of History?  

 

I expect that whomever had the remodel contract had some.  If it's proven that the fire started there, they are in deep merde.

[apuszczalowski]

2 minutes ago, Marv's Neighbor said:

I expect that whomever had the remodel contract had some.  If it's proven that the fire started there, they are in deep merde.

Yeah, might be difficult to get work on an office building or apartment doing Reno work after you become known for your work starting a fire that almost destroyed a historic 800+ year old building.

 

Probably going to be impossible to get contractors insurance again too....

11 minutes ago, ShadyBillsFan said:

What?  No one had insurance on this piece of History?  

 

How do you insure it though? I have read some articles saying you couldnt get insurance for it, and if it was possible, the premiums would be astronomical. I would assume that there was insurance to protect most of the valuables inside, but the building itself probably not. What insurance company could afford to insure a building like that?

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

3 minutes ago, apuszczalowski said:

Yeah, might be difficult to get work on an office building or apartment doing Reno work after you become known for your work starting a fire that almost destroyed a historic 800+ year old building.

 

Probably going to be impossible to get contractors insurance again too....

How do you insure it though? I have read some articles saying you couldnt get insurance for it, and if it was possible, the premiums would be astronomical. I would assume that there was insurance to protect most of the valuables inside, but the building itself probably not. What insurance company could afford to insure a building like that?

Lloyd's of London?    

 

I hear you.   Priceless artifacts and stained glass.   

 

How about you invest in a FIRE suppression system?  

[apuszczalowski]

3 minutes ago, ShadyBillsFan said:

Lloyd's of London?    

 

I hear you.   Priceless artifacts and stained glass.   

 

How about you invest in a FIRE suppression system?  

Did areas of the building have fire suppression? They may have only had it in certain areas where people would be normally. Most of the time they arent going to spend the money to install it in areas that are low risk for a fire starting, like an attic space unless people use it alot or it contains equipment that can start a fire. The roof was lead, with wood framing supporting it, and I'm assuming plaster to the underside. From the looks of a few photos I saw of it before, that attic area didnt contain anything but some walkways that dont appear to be frequently used. A construction/renovation accident is probably the only way that area would/could catch fire.

[MDH]

15 hours ago, The Senator said:

 

I found just the opposite to be true - some were kind, polite, gracious, but most were very abrupt and rude.

 

I suppose it helps if you speak the language.  I am not fluent at all, my French is very poor.

 

I remember when they refused to join the coalition against Iraq in 2003 - I swore I’d never drive another Puegot, and never have.

 

We were spilling bottles of Dom and fine French wine down storm sewers, and re-named French Fries...

 

 

 

And so we finally get to the real truth. It's not that the French don't like Americans, you don't like the French.

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

by the looks of it  REAL  millionaires are donating 

 

 

Millionaires Francois Henri Pinault and Bernard Arnault donate $339 million to Notre Dame restoration

[The Senator]

1 hour ago, MDH said:

 

And so we finally get to the real truth. It's not that the French don't like Americans, you don't like the French.

 

Sacre bleu, not true!  I made good friends in France, most of whom I have lost touch with, have several great friends from France here in the US, had a wonderful professor from France when I was in Ithaca, two of my largest clients back in the 80s/90s were from Grenoble (HP) and La Gaude (IBM), and I love French food (except for snails) and French wine.  

 

I particularly enjoyed the 4 hour dinners with IBM, a different bottle of wine with each course, and - naturally - Cognac or Armagnac afterwards. And, they insisted on picking up the check.

 

Your supposition is a vile canard.

.

Edited April 16, 2019 by The Senator

[BuffaloBill]

1 hour ago, ShadyBillsFan said:

Lloyd's of London?    

 

I hear you.   Priceless artifacts and stained glass.   

 

How about you invest in a FIRE suppression system?  

 

 

Quite simply, cost vs. expected risk.  

[The Senator]

59 minutes ago, ShadyBillsFan said:

by the looks of it  REAL  millionaires are donating 

 

 

Millionaires Francois Henri Pinault and Bernard Arnault donate $339 million to Notre Dame restoration

 

$339M is a phenomenal amount of money so I hate to say this, but it is a mere pittance of what it will cost to rebuild that structure.

 

There must some French multi-gazillionairres hiding out in Monaco that could bankroll the whole thing.

.

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

1 minute ago, The Senator said:

 

$339M is a phenomenal amount of money so I hate to say this, but it is a mere pittance of what it will cost to rebuild that structure.

 

There must some French multi-gazillionairres hiding out in Monaco that could bankroll the whole thing.

.

Agreed.    by all accounts its a drop in the collection bowl.

 

 

[That's No Moon]

23 minutes ago, ShadyBillsFan said:

Agreed.    by all accounts its a drop in the collection bowl.

 

 

They've raised over 500 million dollars in less than a day from 2 people and one company. They'll bring in billions. Billions.

 

Miraculously all the important art, relics, statuary and stained glass were apparently saved or had just been removed prior to the fire.

[BuffaloBill]

16 minutes ago, That's No Moon said:

They've raised over 500 million dollars in less than a day from 2 people and one company. They'll bring in billions. Billions.

 

Miraculously all the important art, relics, statuary and stained glass were apparently saved or had just been removed prior to the fire.

 

 

There were estimates that before the fire it would take $800MM to full restore the structure. It’s hard to say how the fire may have changed this cost estimate.  In some ways trying to preserve while repairing may be more costly than simply replacing.  The counter to this is what water and structural damage costs will come into play given the fire.  There will also be additional costs associated with temporarily stabilizing the structure just to start renovation work.  

 

It will take months for engineers and experts to come up with the full cost.   

[The Senator]

13 hours ago, Buffalo Barbarian said:

 

the Vatican has Trillions, they could easily afford to build a new one.

 

 

 

That’s very true. You’d think Pope Francis could pony up a few billion - shouldn’t cost more than that.

 

OTOH, the US spends roughly $7B annually to fund NATO, operate US military bases, and defend Europe, which begs the question - What is France doing with it’s own money?

.

.

Edited April 16, 2019 by The Senator

[apuszczalowski]

24 minutes ago, BuffaloBill said:

 

 

There were estimates that before the fire it would take $800MM to full restore the structure. It’s hard to say how the fire may have changed this cost estimate.  In some ways trying to preserve while repairing may be more costly than simply replacing.  The counter to this is what water and structural damage costs will come into play given the fire.  There will also be additional costs associated with temporarily stabilizing the structure just to start renovation work.  

 

It will take months for engineers and experts to come up with the full cost.   

I would think the bulk of the costs would come in restoration of anything original that is damaged that can be saved. The structural repairs also will depend on how they decide to proceed with it. They are no longer repairing/restoring the existing roof now, so they can weigh options on whether to rebuild using some modern methods and materials or what they can do to replicate what was there. It sounding like it's almost impossible to recreate the original due to there no longer being able to get lumber like what was used. Structural framing that isint visible can always be redone in  metal or engineered lumber for the spans. From now on people know that certain parts arent original anymore, so it's not like they need to try an fool people in thinking it's original. 

 

The statues, stain glass, fixtures, furniture and finishes will be the stuff that they will want to rebuild and replicate to what was existing before and that's usually the most expensive things. Like in all construction, it's the finishes that drive up the costs of the build.

[apuszczalowski]

19 minutes ago, The Senator said:

 

That’s very true. You’d think Pope Francis could pony up a few billion - shouldn’t cost more than that.

.

Doubtful, their wealth is tied up in real estate (churches) and artifacts (and legal settlements), they arent sitting on a ton of cash. Similar to most million/billionaires, their wealth is in property and what they own, very few are sitting on Scrooge McDuck vaults of cash. Considering they had to pass collection plates to pay for the renovation work that was going on, I doubt they have the money ready to rebuild. 

 

This is a good way for the Million/Billionaires to pay their way to a better after life to make up for any shady business/investing to make their money....

26 minutes ago, The Senator said:

OTOH, the US spends roughly $7B annually to fund NATO, operate US military bases, and defend Europe, which begs the question - What is France doing with it’s own money?

.

.

Baguettes and wine ain't cheap........

 

I did hear that in France, theres an even bigger division between church and state and the government is not allowed to pay for anything associated with religion....

[KD in CA]

11 hours ago, Nextmanup said:

Sounds like the reconstruction funding effort is off to a 300 million Euro head start.   

 

From BBC:

 

Billionaire François-Henri Pinault, chairman and CEO of the Kering group that owns the Gucci and Yves Saint Laurent fashion brands, pledged €100m (£86m; $113m) towards rebuilding Notre-Dame, AFP news agency reports.

 

Another €200m was pledged by Bernard Arnault's family and their company LVMH - a business empire which includes Louis Vuitton and Sephora - on Tuesday morning, according to Reuters news agency.

 

The French charity Fondation du Patrimoine is launching an international appeal for funds for the cathedral, a Unesco World Heritage site.

 

As sad as this is, big tragic events is what opens pocketbooks.

 

I bet they raise 10x what they were asking for the renovations.

[Marv's Neighbor]

It's a modern day tragedy but when you think of all the European Cathedrals that were bombed during WW!!, and later rebuilt, it's maybe more imaginable.

 

France "owns" Notre Dam.  It's an important a Catholic worship site, but it's also a huge tourist attraction, so there will be $$ to keep that going.  Substitute structural steel for the 800 year old timbers and Viola!  There are also many stained glass masters in France/Germany that could help with the restoration.

[Nextmanup]

13 minutes ago, Marv's Neighbor said:

It's a modern day tragedy but when you think of all the European Cathedrals that were bombed during WW!!, and later rebuilt, it's maybe more imaginable.

 

France "owns" Notre Dam.  It's an important a Catholic worship site, but it's also a huge tourist attraction, so there will be $$ to keep that going.  Substitute structural steel for the 800 year old timbers and Viola!  There are also many stained glass masters in France/Germany that could help with the restoration.

*voila*

 

viola =

 

[BuffaloBill]

16 minutes ago, Nextmanup said:

*voila*

 

viola =

 

 

 

Maybe it’s like his nose, he means to pick it.

[apuszczalowski]

1 hour ago, Marv's Neighbor said:

It's a modern day tragedy but when you think of all the European Cathedrals that were bombed during WW!!, and later rebuilt, it's maybe more imaginable.

 

France "owns" Notre Dam.  It's an important a Catholic worship site, but it's also a huge tourist attraction, so there will be $$ to keep that going.  Substitute structural steel for the 800 year old timbers and Viola!  There are also many stained glass masters in France/Germany that could help with the restoration.

I was reading something earlier about the stain glass, they said that it may not be possible to reproduce because alot of the techniques and methods for how it was made are lost because no one has done it those ways for centuries. They can make similar ones I guess, but it wont be the same

[SomeDudeAtHome]

So I haven't read through all 7 pages but I read in an article about a number of fire prevention measures they have in place which makes it even more tragic that this happened. 

 

In this article for those interested 

 

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/notre-dame-appears-structurally-sound-after-fire-as-investigators-look-for-cause/ar-BBVYTqC?ocid=ientp#image=BBVXSlX|60

Edited April 17, 2019 by SomeDudeAtHome
adding article

[Marv's Neighbor]

13 hours ago, apuszczalowski said:

I was reading something earlier about the stain glass, they said that it may not be possible to reproduce because alot of the techniques and methods for how it was made are lost because no one has done it those ways for centuries. They can make similar ones I guess, but it wont be the same

As of today, the glass seems to be mostly OK.  It will all be inspected because some of the lead, holding it together, may have taken some heat damage, but when we remember the hoffific pics. during the fire, it's amazing that it mostly all survived.

 

All the stained glass is not original to the initial building.  Much of it has been replaced over the years, and that craft continues to live on.

14 hours ago, Nextmanup said:

*voila*

 

viola =

 

Looks the same to my old typing skills.

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

nearly $1B in donations (reported)

[KD in CA]

14 hours ago, SomeDudeAtHome said:

So I haven't read through all 7 pages but I read in an article about a number of fire prevention measures they have in place which makes it even more tragic that this happened. 

 

In this article for those interested 

 

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/notre-dame-appears-structurally-sound-after-fire-as-investigators-look-for-cause/ar-BBVYTqC?ocid=ientp#image=BBVXSlX|60

 

Geez....they couldn’t find the fire after the first alarm?  Makes you wonder how much difference it would have made if they responded 20 minutes earlier.  Probably a lot.