13 dropped balls all season?????

[row_33]

12 minutes ago, ShadyBillsFan said:

valid point 

 

it was more than three yards past the line of scrimmage, not much experience in catching them

 

[Stank_Nasty]

anyone else find it odd that most all agree the bills wr's and te's suck but yet some feel the need to argue that, while they know they suck, its not like they suck THAT bad?

 

THEY FREAKING SUCK! why do some passionately argue that they suck a little less than what most others think they suck?

[Augie]

21 minutes ago, LABILLBACKER said:

This convaluted site is nonsense.  I've personally counted 15 drops in the last 4 games. 

 

That sounds like a more accurate number. 

[row_33]

13 minutes ago, Stank_Nasty said:

anyone else find it odd that most all agree the bills wr's and te's suck but yet some feel the need to argue that, while they know they suck, its not like they suck THAT bad?

 

THEY FREAKING SUCK! why do some passionately argue that they suck a little less than what most others think they suck?

 

one in ten people will argue about the day of the week just to be that way

 

try to avoid them at all costs

 

heaven help you if you marry into a bunch of them, including your spouse

 

 

[Stank_Nasty]

1 minute ago, row_33 said:

 

one in ten people will argue about the day of the week just to be that way

 

try to avoid them at all costs

 

heaven help you if you marry into a bunch of them, including your spouse

 

 

its the same crap over and over again..... "he should have caught it, BUT... (insert some jab at allens accuracy here)"

 

Josh, just start throwing it so damn hard it wedges into the facemask, at which point we don't need wr's to try and catch anything with their friggin hands!

[Shaw66]

23 minutes ago, BarkleyForGOATBackupPT5P said:

didn't realize we both posted the same thing lol.

 

Great minds think alike

You said it better.

[Alphadawg7]

5 hours ago, JaCrispy said:

If your definition of a drop is hitting the receiver in the hand, then yes...but I could also understand arguments the other way as well....and even if you decide to classify it as a drop, it still doesn’t change the fact that Allen’s throw was not as accurate as it could have been with a clean pocket and a wide open receiver...that should have been a 50 yard catch and run...and it’s throws like that that keep Allen hovering around 50% completions....if he can fix that in the offseason, sky is the limit with this kid.?

 

I greatly disagree. It’s the receivers job to adjust to the pass, not the QBs job to deliver a pin point pass.  Especially on a pass that travels over 50 yards in the air on a cross body throw.

 

Clay made mutliple mistakes.  People keep only talking about the actual catch attempt.  He was late in adjusting and made catch harder himself.

 

1.  Ball travelled 50+ yards in the air giving Clay a lifetime by NFL standards to come back to the ball.

2.  Clay should have already been coming back to the ball with his QB running for his life on the last play of the game.  Clay instead keeps jogging further away towards opposite side of field that Allen is scrambling on.  Everyone and their mom knows how difficult a cross body pass is even if it’s a 20 yard pass, let alone a bomb to the endzone.

3.  Clay was wide open and only 4th and 11, he could have come back a ton and helped Allen and still walked into the endzone.

4.  Ball still hit clay in both hands that any starting TE or WR should make with game on the line.

 

Clay dropped the pass...and Clay is the reason the catch attempt was even more difficult in the first place.  Only a couple QBs in league can heave a pass cross body 50+ yards while running for their life.  Most starting receivers and TEs would have made a move that an easy catch...and still would have caught the one Clay dropped.

 

Clay.  He’s the one.  His fault.  

[Stank_Nasty]

1 minute ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

I greatly disagree. It’s the receivers job to adjust to the pass, not the QBs job to deliver a pin point pass.  Especially on a pass that travels over 50 yards in the air on a cross body throw.

 

Clay made mutliple mistakes.  People keep only talking about the actual catch attempt.  He was late in adjusting and made catch harder himself.

 

1.  Ball travelled 50+ yards in the air giving Clay a lifetime by NFL standards to come back to the ball.

2.  Clay should have already been coming back to the ball with his QB running for his life on the last play of the game.  Clay instead keeps jogging further away towards opposite side of field that Allen is scrambling on.  Everyone and their mom knows how difficult a cross body pass is even if it’s a 20 yard pass, let alone a bomb to the endzone.

3.  Clay was wide open and only 4th and 11, he could have come back a ton and helped Allen and still walked into the endzone.

4.  Ball still hit clay in both hands that any starting TE or WR should make with game on the line.

 

Clay dropped the pass...and Clay is the reason the catch attempt was even more difficult in the first place.  Only a couple QBs in league can heave a pass cross body 50+ yards while running for their life.  Most starting receivers and TEs would have made a move that an easy catch...and still would have caught the one Clay dropped.

 

Clay.  He’s the one.  His fault.  

fairly certain they are talking about the crossing pattern clay dropped vs jets..... that also should have been caught.

[VW82]

This is further proof that Josh hasn’t been as accurate as some of you think he’s been. We can all agree the number seems low right? That’s because there have been way more than 13 times this year where the ball touched a receivers hands but still fell incomplete. An objective party looked at all the passes and deemed a huge chunk we’re at least partly on the QB, which is what many of us have been saying. Yes our receivers should have come up with more catches. No these catchable imcompletes are not all their fault.

 

That doesn’t mean Allen sucks or he can’t improve or we’re all biased against. It’s just further evidence that he hasn’t been as consistently accurate as some of you are saying.

Edited December 19, 2018 by VW82

[billsintaiwan]

13 hours ago, CincyBillsFan said:

So do you think he put Clay in a tough position with that throw against the Jets?  Or that he put Jones in a tough position with that second down throw over the middle that was dropped?  In the NFL a great throw can be a QB getting he ball near the receiver and relying on the receiver to make a play.  Every week I see guys making tough catches look routine.  My guess is if espn were to pick out the 100 best catches of the year not a single Buffalo Bill catch would make the cut.  NOT ONE. 

Croom made a tough catch Sunday. But in general we have nobody who wins a contested ball. That lions receiver flat out won how many balls last week? We need a guy like that.

[BillsSB2020]

12 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I guess I get to raise my hand for the dunce cap?  I don't think it was well expressed, but if I understand the basic premise, the OP is saying that teams with great QB or even good QB have WR who make the QB look better, by routinely hauling in those high-degree-of-difficulty "catch that can't be made" catches. 

 

I mean, it's not a state secret that Aaron Rodgers completion % fell off 5 percentage points and his ypg dropped about 10% between 2014 and 2015 when he lost Jordy Nelson, showing an exceptional WR makes a difference even for a great QB.

We can't expect to have a roster full of ODB's but I would like to see one, and the rest better than they are now - hauling in say half of those "makeable but tough" throws.

 

Allen also needs to be better than he is now.

 

 

We've written 40,000 books about it?

Give it time. It's only been a few days!?

 

I just happened to be watching the Seinfeld where they were talking about the Keith Hernandez spitting incident and they repeated "back and to the left." There must have been a second spitter! Either way, it wasn't a perfect pass but certainly one that should have been caught.

Edited December 19, 2018 by BillsSB2020

[Paulus]

15 hours ago, JaCrispy said:

The pass to Clay was catchable, but it was, most definitely, not perfect...in fact, in real time, it appeared low and away...but with a little more effort, the catch could have been made.

It is a subjective measure... 

 

How much is a lot? 

[JaCrispy]

1 hour ago, Jobot said:

 

Clay shouldn't have been in the back of the endzone by that point in the play.  Once the play broke down you need to work back towards the qb... at least a little bit.  Allen threw the ball as hard as he could falling away.. can't ask much more from him.

I think we are talking about a different play but I agree with you on the one you are referring to

1 hour ago, CincyBillsFan said:

 

It's called throwing a WR open.  If our NFL TE can only muster high school level speed then he shouldn't be out there.  To me the photos make it even more clear that he should have caught the ball.  Or another way to look at it is if you drop a pass like that you better make a spectacular catch to make up for it. 

Fair enough

[Alphadawg7]

34 minutes ago, Stank_Nasty said:

fairly certain they are talking about the crossing pattern clay dropped vs jets..... that also should have been caught.

 

Ah, thanks for clarification, saw the 50 yard reference and thought it was that one.

 

Funny though, the other drop over the middle was even more on Clay lol.  It’s not even worth discussing.  Flat out drop while wide open.  

Edited December 19, 2018 by Alphadawg7

[oldmanfan]

23 minutes ago, VW82 said:

This is further proof that Josh hasn’t been as accurate as some of you think he’s been. We can all agree the number seems low right? That’s because there have been way more than 13 times this year where the ball touched a receivers hands but still fell incomplete. An objective party looked at all the passes and deemed a huge chunk we’re at least partly on the QB, which is what many of us have been saying. Yes our receivers should have come up with more catches. No these catchable imcompletes are not all their fault.

 

That doesn’t mean Allen sucks or he can’t improve or we’re all biased against. It’s just further evidence that he hasn’t been as consistently accurate as some of you are saying.

I know you won't like hearing this, and I am not doing this just to troll or to be deliberately confrontational, but you keep using the term accurate incorrectly.  When you hit guys in the hands and they don't catch the ball, the pass is accurate.  I keep trying to tell you, and you keep ignoring, that there is a difference between being accurate and being precise, and when you talk about him being inaccurate what you are really saying is that he is not as precise as you want him to be.  And this is not a semantic argument; there is a real difference between the two.  If Allen was missing guys by a yard or two where they can't make a play on the ball, then he's not being accurate.  And that could be a difficult thing to overcome.

 

When people talk about throwing a ball into a tight window, they are talking about hitting a very small target:  That is being precise.  When you talk about putting a ball into a receiver's catch radius, maybe not right on his numbers but where the receiver gets his hands on it and can make a play, that's accuracy.  The best Qb's have both high accuracy and high precision, and that's what Allen should be striving to achieve.

Allen is accurate.  He needs to work more on precision when a throw needs to be in a tight window, and he needs to work on consistency as do most young QBs.  People need to be, well, more accurate in the terminology they use to evaluate the kid, and more accurate in interpreting the data used to evaluate the kid.  The idea that completion percentage is a measure of accuracy has been debunked many times now, and folks need to stop cycling back to it as a valid measure since it does not account for dropped accurate throws, throw aways, and such.

[Shaw66]

5 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Ah, thanks for clarification, saw the 50 yard reference and thought it was that one.

 

Funny though, the other drop over the middle was even more on Clay lol.  It’s not even worth discussing.  Flat out drop while wide open.  

But now go back and look at the post you responded to.  The ooster's point was that if Allen makes the throw he should have made, it's a 50-yard catch and run. 

 

That's not to say Clay shouldn't have caught the ball.  Th point is that to be a too QB Allen still has work to do. But that isn't news. 

[oldmanfan]

2 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

But now go back and look at the post you responded to.  The ooster's point was that if Allen makes the throw he should have made, it's a 50-yard catch and run. 

 

That's not to say Clay shouldn't have caught the ball.  Th point is that to be a too QB Allen still has work to do. But that isn't news. 

We will never agree on this.  But one disagreement after - what, ten years on these boards?  I  can live with that.  I can't live with a TE that can't catch though.

[Alphadawg7]

8 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

But now go back and look at the post you responded to.  The ooster's point was that if Allen makes the throw he should have made, it's a 50-yard catch and run. 

 

That's not to say Clay shouldn't have caught the ball.  Th point is that to be a too QB Allen still has work to do. But that isn't news. 

 

Doesnt matter. It’s 100% on Clay.  If you need the ball to hit you in the numbers to make a catch, you don’t belong in the NFL.  90+% of all completed passes could be “placed better”.  It’s such a ridiculous notion to think QBs need to hit a perfect throw each time.  

 

Sometimes I wonder if people watch football outside Bills games.  Rodgers, Brees, etc make a throw just like that one many times every week.  A catchable pass that “could have” been in an even easier spot to catch.  The difference is, their guys make the play.  

 

I mean you can literally pick a part 90+% of all completed passes, and maybe more, and say well it would have been easier to cacth if the ball was placed in this other exact spot.  There is just no excuse for Clay to drop that pass, not one.

 

Doesnt make Allen infalliable, every throw gets analayzed to see what could have been done better, and I’m sure Allen is looking to get that ball higher there in the future.  But it in no way excuses the drop, you absolutely have to cacth that pass, and Clays drop isn’t an anamoly, he’s made plenty.

[JaCrispy]

37 minutes ago, Paulus said:

It is a subjective measure... 

 

How much is a lot? 

Definitely 

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

1 hour ago, row_33 said:

 

it was more than three yards past the line of scrimmage, not much experience in catching them

 

I was agreeing with the comment -  old vets not practicing as much or as hard 

 

I'm not buying the 13 #.   

If I were   ....  KB had 62 targets with 23 catches

 

Even if we say 50% were uncatchable balls, that makes it 31 targets.  That's still 8 of the OP's "13 dropped" catches.

[Shaw66]

45 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Doesnt matter. It’s 100% on Clay.  If you need the ball to hit you in the numbers to make a catch, you don’t belong in the NFL.  90+% of all completed passes could be “placed better”.  It’s such a ridiculous notion to think QBs need to hit a perfect throw each time.  

 

Sometimes I wonder if people watch football outside Bills games.  Rodgers, Brees, etc make a throw just like that one many times every week.  A catchable pass that “could have” been in an even easier spot to catch.  The difference is, their guys make the play.  

 

I mean you can literally pick a part 90+% of all completed passes, and maybe more, and say well it would have been easier to cacth if the ball was placed in this other exact spot.  There is just no excuse for Clay to drop that pass, not one.

 

Doesnt make Allen infalliable, every throw gets analayzed to see what could have been done better, and I’m sure Allen is looking to get that ball higher there in the future.  But it in no way excuses the drop, you absolutely have to cacth that pass, and Clays drop isn’t an anamoly, he’s made plenty.

You're 100% wrong.

 

There are only two things that 100% certain about that play, at least things that matter.  It's 100% certain that McDermott and Clay will both tell you that Clay should have caught it.  And it's 100% certain that both McDermott and Allen will tell you that Allen should have thrown it better.  

 

When these guys get graded on that play, and they do get graded, Clay will get high markets for his recognition and route running and low marks for his execution of the catch.  Allen will get high marks for handling the pocket, recognition and decent but not high marks for the throw.   Clay won't get an F- and Allen won't get an A+ on the play.   

 

If you want to place blame AND if blame has to be 100%, then Clay gets the blame, because his total grade certainly is lower than Allen's.   But these coaches are not about blame.  They're about improvement, and your dreaming if you think the coaches didn't tell Allen that he didn't completely meet his objective on that play.   Of course, they didn't have to tell him, because he already knew.  

[Alphadawg7]

17 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

You're 100% wrong.

 

There are only two things that 100% certain about that play, at least things that matter.  It's 100% certain that McDermott and Clay will both tell you that Clay should have caught it.  And it's 100% certain that both McDermott and Allen will tell you that Allen should have thrown it better.  

 

When these guys get graded on that play, and they do get graded, Clay will get high markets for his recognition and route running and low marks for his execution of the catch.  Allen will get high marks for handling the pocket, recognition and decent but not high marks for the throw.   Clay won't get an F- and Allen won't get an A+ on the play.   

 

If you want to place blame AND if blame has to be 100%, then Clay gets the blame, because his total grade certainly is lower than Allen's.   But these coaches are not about blame.  They're about improvement, and your dreaming if you think the coaches didn't tell Allen that he didn't completely meet his objective on that play.   Of course, they didn't have to tell him, because he already knew.  

 

Wrong.  The ball was in a more than catchable location.  The failure to complete is 100% on Clay.  Of course Allen could have made it “easier” but that’s categorically not an excuse to justify a flat out drop.  

 

Again, you can literally pick apart the accuracy of about 90% of passes thrown and show how it could have been thrown better.  Brees, Rodgers, Brady, everyone makes throws that are as “off” as this one was every week that are complete because their guys make a play.  

 

Again, it’s not incorrect to say it could have been better placed.  But it’s categorically incorrect to excuse, validate, or justify Clay dropping that pass. And the vast majority of people putting that mostly on Allen are the same people who are already critical of him and looking for any sign of evidence to sell their negative, pessimistic, or doubtful outlook on Allen.  

 

Nobody is saying Allen can’t improve the ball location, but it’s ridiculous to blame the ball location (which wasn’t that bad) to validate yet another failure by Clay.  

[Shaw66]

1 hour ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Wrong.  The ball was in a more than catchable location.  The failure to complete is 100% on Clay.  Of course Allen could have made it “easier” but that’s categorically not an excuse to justify a flat out drop.  

 

Again, you can literally pick apart the accuracy of about 90% of passes thrown and show how it could have been thrown better.  Brees, Rodgers, Brady, everyone makes throws that are as “off” as this one was every week that are complete because their guys make a play.  

 

Again, it’s not incorrect to say it could have been better placed.  But it’s categorically incorrect to excuse, validate, or justify Clay dropping that pass. And the vast majority of people putting that mostly on Allen are the same people who are already critical of him and looking for any sign of evidence to sell their negative, pessimistic, or doubtful outlook on Allen.  

 

Nobody is saying Allen can’t improve the ball location, but it’s ridiculous to blame the ball location (which wasn’t that bad) to validate yet another failure by Clay.  

Who is excusing, validating or justifying Clay's play?  No one, so far as I can tell.

 

Who's putting it mostly on Allen? Again, nobody.   

 

So your point seems to be that you want to argue with nobody.  

 

Are we to assume that you're okay with Allen's accuracy? Of you are, you're in the minority.  If you aren't, then despite your arguments, you agree with what several of us have been saying. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

7 hours ago, cd1 said:

You can see by these takes that CLAY misjudged the balls velocity.

Perhaps THIS is what happens when old players don't have to practice!

JMO

 

That's actually a good point you and Jesseffer made.  You can see by the second screen shot that Clay is still looking to his left then it's "oh crap there it is" and he lunges for it.

And if Clay is being held out of practice during the week, he has not much chance to adjust to Allen's velocity during practice.

I wonder if that's a problem for Zay also - he had his best week with Barkley and has been poor since Allen came back.

 

6 hours ago, JESSEFEFFER said:

Clay probably could not track that ball as it was a bullet on a low trajectory and he has just cleared the defender and the ball is almost there.  Face it, having an arm like that means that Josh can beat the defense anywhere on the field but also means his intended targets get less time to track and adjust to the ball and will have more difficulty actually catching it.  Learning when it's not necessary to drill the ball to the target and instead it's better to lead the receiver into an open area with a touch pass that is easy to track and lands softly is a lesson that experience will teach.  I thought our receiving corps looked much better when catching Matt Barkley's soft tosses, for instance.

 

Also, we as fans tend to ignore a play the DB makes on the ball.  If a DB gets a pbu on a play, we shouldn't view it as a "drop."  Since we want the ball caught regardless of the circumstances, it tends to get recorded in our collective memories as another "*^%&$^%# dropped ball instead of "credit to the defender."

 

To be fair, a touch pass easy to track and landing softly would have landed in arms attached to a white and green jersey.  The adjustment can not be on one side, Allen's.  He has the ability to fire it in there and his targets have to learn to handle 'em.

I agree with your point about contested catches, but there again - the top WR make those catches anyway some of the time.  We don't have anyone on our roster who can make them at all.

1 hour ago, Alphadawg7 said:

Again, it’s not incorrect to say it could have been better placed.  But it’s categorically incorrect to excuse, validate, or justify Clay dropping that pass. And the vast majority of people putting that mostly on Allen are the same people who are already critical of him and looking for any sign of evidence to sell their negative, pessimistic, or doubtful outlook on Allen. 

 

Who is putting it "mostly on Allen" and "ooking for any sign of evidence to sell their negative, pessimistic, or doubtful outlook on Allen" here?

 

It was a ball that could have been caught, that a number of WR and TE would have caught. 

 

But it's not a catch that would be scored as a dropped pass, nor regarded as a textbook example of "he should have caught that".  Even in the NFL game description it's listed as thrown wide of receiver.

[blacklabel]

19 hours ago, Idandria said:

So a pass is only good if it hits the player perfectly in stride in the numbers. 

 

Receivers arent paid well to make adjustments and do crazy things to come down with the ball, right? 

 

Josh has to make all perfect throws every single time? I say, how about a damn receiver make a great catch that he shouldn’t have made dammit. Like that ODB jr one handed circus catch. Instead we have Clay who can’t make a simple diving catch.

 

Yeah, this is what's up. I don't know if I've ever seen a season in which the receivers just aren't coming down with the ball the way these Bills receivers haven't been doing. For someone as big and (supposedly) as strong as KB, I've never seen more "drops after the catch" from someone. Guy can get his hands on the ball but like, every other pass he couldn't reel it all the way in. It'd get knocked out on his way to the ground, or the ground would knock it out. Zay has passes zipping through his hands and smacking him in the facemask. Clay looks like the most adjusting to a throw he can do is to move his hands maybe 6 or 8 inches outside his frame and that's it. 

 

The receivers they go after in free agency or the draft need to be guys who are really good at adjusting to oddly placed throws and coming down with contested catches. I know Allen can fire a pinpoint perfect pass when everything goes just right for him but that doesn't happen 100% of the time. Allen has that "area code" accuracy going on. He can get it within a receivers catch radius but it's not always gonna be right in the numbers. Receivers that play here are just gonna have to get used to that. I dunno, if I'm Terry Robiskie, maybe I find a way for the Juggs machine to fire "at random" so these guys get used to catching balls from a variety of catch points.

Edited December 19, 2018 by blacklabel

[PrimeTime101]

2 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

You're 100% wrong.

 

There are only two things that 100% certain about that play, at least things that matter.  It's 100% certain that McDermott and Clay will both tell you that Clay should have caught it.  And it's 100% certain that both McDermott and Allen will tell you that Allen should have thrown it better.  

 

When these guys get graded on that play, and they do get graded, Clay will get high markets for his recognition and route running and low marks for his execution of the catch.  Allen will get high marks for handling the pocket, recognition and decent but not high marks for the throw.   Clay won't get an F- and Allen won't get an A+ on the play.   

 

If you want to place blame AND if blame has to be 100%, then Clay gets the blame, because his total grade certainly is lower than Allen's.   But these coaches are not about blame.  They're about improvement, and your dreaming if you think the coaches didn't tell Allen that he didn't completely meet his objective on that play.   Of course, they didn't have to tell him, because he already knew.  

I am 100% certain that McD, Josh and Clay tell the fans what the fans want to hear. no more no less. he could of run back to the 10 yard line and caught a pass. Clay did a horrible job tracking it.

[row_33]

4 hours ago, VW82 said:

This is further proof that Josh hasn’t been as accurate as some of you think he’s been. We can all agree the number seems low right? That’s because there have been way more than 13 times this year where the ball touched a receivers hands but still fell incomplete. An objective party looked at all the passes and deemed a huge chunk we’re at least partly on the QB, which is what many of us have been saying. Yes our receivers should have come up with more catches. No these catchable imcompletes are not all their fault.

 

That doesn’t mean Allen sucks or he can’t improve or we’re all biased against. It’s just further evidence that he hasn’t been as consistently accurate as some of you are saying.

 

you have at least 4 straw men you are attacking there...

 

it's only a leisure-time cheering for a team that isn't very good...

[Freddie's Dead]

On 12/18/2018 at 8:00 PM, Billsfan1972 said:

http://hosted.stats.com/fb/tmleaders.asp?type=Receiving&range=NFL&rank=232

 

Where do they find these stats?

 

I can't believe Zay hasn't alone dropped 13 balls this year.

 

To illustrate how bad the statistic is, ESPN did not call Allen's pass to Clay vs. NYJ over the middle a drop.....  

 

Still looking for a replay as he was wide open with room to run and it was a perfect pass and an easy catch.....

 

Heck Zay had two hit him in the hands too that game dropped. 

 

 

 

Kelvin Benjamin alone dropped 6 TD passes.  BS stat.

[Mr. WEO]

13 dropped balls all season?? That's nothing.

 

Allegedly, Peyton Manning dropped a pair of balls after every practice at Tennessee...