13 dropped balls all season?????

[Shaw66]

10 minutes ago, ddaryl said:

 

Yeah we have some wr issues but its not all on them either. Zay has improved from his rookie year to this year. Good chance he will improve again going into next year after playing with Allen for a full year, and next year Allen will get most reps in camp which will help. I fail to see why anyone is hating on Zay. 

 

Josh does need to make adjustments....  He still throws with too much velocity to often. He is getting better with accuracy but he is not quite there.

 

Too funny how sensitive people get, and only a few have there heads on straight 

 

 

You're correct that Allen needs to take something off some throws.  But it's also true that receivers have to learn to catch his zingers. It's a real advantage sometimes to get the ball there fast.  

 

The receivers will learn this next year, with Allen getting all the first team reps.

 

And DBs and LBs aren't used to catching balls with a lot of zip, so Allen's fastball also cuts down on INTs. 

 

Elway had that advantage.  

[Thriftygamer83]

7 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

I'm glad someone said this. Great catches are great because most receivers don't make them.  Most good receivers miss tough balls more often than they catch them.  

 

It makes no sense to call everything a receiver touches and doesn't  catch a drop.  

 

Take the throw over the middle that Clay didn't catch discussed early in this thread. You have to consider who the receiver is.  That is a ball I expect Zay to catch, but not necessarily Clay.  He isn't very athletic, and running at full speed across the field and going down for the ball is a tough play for him.  

 

The truth is that Clay just isn't an good modern tight end.  He's more blocker and less receiver than today's game demands. He fit the game 10 years ago better. 

 

Allen knows that throws to Clay have to be better than throws to some other guys.  

 

 

Seen Clay whiff on blocks which allowed for pressure and negative rushing yards.  Guy is completely broken at this point.  Can still remember fans cheering him after that it was routine to catch it and he had made catches like that before his head is somewhere else and he’s ultimately disinterested and unmotivated to live up to his pro-bowl and premier status.  

[Shaw66]

1 minute ago, oldmanfan said:

I'm sorry but the ball was right at waist level and the guy gets both hands on it.  If you're going to say based on that throw that Allen needs to be more accurate (and again people confuse accuracy with precision - that was an accurate throw) then there isn't a QB in the league that can be described as accurate (or more accurately- precise).  Rather than say Allen has to adjust to poor receivers, maybe the solution is to have a TE that can make routine catches.

Of course the solution is to have a better tight end.  But until you do, if you want a high probability of a catch, the throw has to be better.  

 

What you said is like saying it isn't Allen's fault when he overthrows a receiver when the receiver isn't fast enough to get to the ball. 

 

You can only play the game with the players you have.  When Clay is your tight end, you should expect those drops. 

[oldmanfan]

I have commented above on the Clay throw.  But to a larger point, if we're going to continue harping on one throw for a rookie QB and think that provides some kind of definitive evidence of his accuracy or lack thereof, this place is going to get ridiculous. and I'm as guilty as the next guy for doing so.

 

I think everyone should be able to agree on the following:

 

1.  He has shown a pretty fair amount of progress since his first start

2.  He looks better than most thought he would when he was drafted

3.  He has a ways to go and needs to improve in certain areas like touch on passes, reading defenses, being more precise with some throws.

4 .  We don't need to be thinking about another QB next year.

[Shaw66]

2 minutes ago, Thriftygamer83 said:

Seen Clay whiff on blocks which allowed for pressure and negative rushing yards.  Guy is completely broken at this point.  Can still remember fans cheering him after that it was routine to catch it and he had made catches like that before his head is somewhere else and he’s ultimately disinterested and unmotivated to live up to his pro-bowl and premier status.  

I agree he should make that catch and has in the past.  And I agree he was better earlier in his career.  Since he cMe into the league, the game has been asking tight ends to become better receivers, and he hasn't developed that way. He's maybe gone in the other direction.  

 

Ckay needs the ball just right if you're going to expect him to catch it. 

[WhyteDwarf]

2 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

Of course the solution is to have a better tight end.  But until you do, if you want a high probability of a catch, the throw has to be better.  

 

What you said is like saying it isn't Allen's fault when he overthrows a receiver when the receiver isn't fast enough to get to the ball. 

 

You can only play the game with the players you have.  When Clay is your tight end, you should expect those drops. 

 

I'm very interested to see where we are at with this argument next December. I certainly hope it's not the same argument!

[oldmanfan]

3 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

Of course the solution is to have a better tight end.  But until you do, if you want a high probability of a catch, the throw has to be better.  

 

What you said is like saying it isn't Allen's fault when he overthrows a receiver when the receiver isn't fast enough to get to the ball. 

 

You can only play the game with the players you have.  When Clay is your tight end, you should expect those drops. 

Shaw we usually agree but I can't with this one.  You are saying because your TE is not talented it's the QB's fault for not making him so?  Doesn't add up for me.

[T master]

13 hours ago, JaCrispy said:

The pass to Clay was catchable, but it was, most definitely, not perfect...in fact, in real time, it appeared low and away...but with a little more effort, the catch could have been made.

 

For the money they have been paying him there should be a lot more effort on his part !! ?

[LVGrown]

11 hours ago, Mango said:

 

 

We can’t expect to have a roster for of ODB’s, but they have to be better than they are now...

 

I can't imagine a roster full of ODB's would be very helpful for JA. BUT, they'd have to be better than what hes been working with. 

 

 

Edited December 19, 2018 by LVGrown

[Shaw66]

Just now, oldmanfan said:

Shaw we usually agree but I can't with this one.  You are saying because your TE is not talented it's the QB's fault for not making him so?  Doesn't add up for me.

Oldman

 

Read what I said.  I wasnt talking about "fault."  I'm talking about the reality of the game.   It's a simple fact that Clay's catch radius is completely different from Odell Beckham's.  That means you're going to have higher completion percentage throwing to Beckham. 

 

If Allen is running that play and sees his tight end, hes going to try to make an accurate throw, like he tries on every play.  But he knows that if Clay is the tight end, his probability of completing an Inaccurate pass is lower than if it's Croom.  It's a question of reality, not fault.  

 

The simple fact is that Clay running across the field at full speed isn't good at catching balls outside a relatively small catch radius. 

[Thriftygamer83]

1 minute ago, T master said:

 

For the money they have been paying him there should be a lot more effort on his part !! ?

He is not interested or motivated to put himself at risk anymore.  With the touchdown he was scared of getting hit along with going across the middle.  Never lived up to his former premier glory and Miami got rid of him because they noticed his plummeting level of play due to his scaredy-cat play in practice.  

[Shaw66]

2 minutes ago, T master said:

 

For the money they have been paying him there should be a lot more effort on his part !! ?

True, but that's meaningless.  If you paid me that money, I still wouldn't have caught the ball.  

 

Talking about the money is about whether a GM's decision turned out well, not about what to expect from players on the field. 

[billsredneck1]

26 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

 

 

You're correct that Allen needs to take something off some throws.  But it's also true that receivers have to learn to catch his zingers. It's a real advantage sometimes to get the ball there fast.  

 

The receivers will learn this next year, with Allen getting all the first team reps.

 

And DBs and LBs aren't used to catching balls with a lot of zip, so Allen's fastball also cuts down on INTs. 

 

Elway had that advantage.  

i'm in the clay shoulda caught that camp. however, as to the bolded,  i think we'll see great improvement in touch and accuracy next year.  we are already seeing it a little more each week imo.  also,  once he gets better protection, he can go through his reads without having to jam the ball out at the last fraction of a second.

 

being able to throw that fast gives him a unique advantage of being able to milk a play just a little,  but when he gets the time and doesn't have to rush it he won't.

plus the game is going to slow down for him. i'm excited.

 

edit: one other factor going forward is getting wrs who get separation. i think a lot of times he needs that zip to fit tight windows and to negate the closing speed of the defender.

Edited December 19, 2018 by billsredneck1

[HeHateMe]

Clay deserves to go the way of Kelvin Benjamin..

[Billsfan1972]

How about watching all 32 starting QB's and what they get out of their receivers and the passes they throw.

 

I'll give you a hint......  Not everyone is on the money.  Allen's accuracy actually has really impressed me if I was to believe the draft experts. 

 

This was about the 13 dropped passes, but again look at the pass charts from the weekend.

 

https://nextgenstats.nfl.com/charts/list/pass

 

I just am appalled at the lack or support he gets from his receivers.

[Ridgewaycynic2013]

11 hours ago, Mango said:

We can’t expect to have a roster for of ODB’s, but they have to be better than they are now...

 

Bills’ roster WRs 2018:  Less drama than ODB.  A LOT less catches.

[oldmanfan]

14 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

Oldman

 

Read what I said.  I wasnt talking about "fault."  I'm talking about the reality of the game.   It's a simple fact that Clay's catch radius is completely different from Odell Beckham's.  That means you're going to have higher completion percentage throwing to Beckham. 

 

If Allen is running that play and sees his tight end, hes going to try to make an accurate throw, like he tries on every play.  But he knows that if Clay is the tight end, his probability of completing an Inaccurate pass is lower than if it's Croom.  It's a question of reality, not fault.  

 

The simple fact is that Clay running across the field at full speed isn't good at catching balls outside a relatively small catch radius. 

I see your point.  Given that, then would you agree if he is so limited he should be on the bench?

[Shaw66]

4 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

I see your point.  Given that, then would you agree if he is so limited he should be on the bench?

Oh, yeah. He's gotta go.  Allen needs a better option. 

 

But that's the future. Right now, you play with the guys you have. 

 

[ddaryl]

16 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

 

 

You're correct that Allen needs to take something off some throws.  But it's also true that receivers have to learn to catch his zingers. It's a real advantage sometimes to get the ball there fast.  

 

The receivers will learn this next year, with Allen getting all the first team reps.

 

And DBs and LBs aren't used to catching balls with a lot of zip, so Allen's fastball also cuts down on INTs. 

 

Elway had that advantage.  

 

Allens zingers are way more zing than most if not ALL QB's..... and those finger tip grabs are not as possible at those velocities. Coming out of break and grabbing a football that's already on its way is easier at lower velocity and that will even haunt the best finger tip catchers WR's in the game

 

As for Allen's speed cutting down on INT's well it goes both ways then.. Our WR's will be having issues at high velocity just like Opposing D's. Its a double edge sword, so its up to Allen to learn when to zip it with all he's got and when to take a few MPH off the throw in any given situation.

 

Yes a full Allen camp next year will help the O

 

 

[HappyDays]

1 hour ago, JESSEFEFFER said:

Face it, having an arm like that means that Josh can beat the defense anywhere on the field but also means his intended targets get less time to track and adjust to the ball and will have more difficulty actually catching it.

 

McKenzie hasn't had any issues catching his passes. Foster hasn't either since leaving the practice squad. Just Zay and Clay and Benjamin, and they all had trouble catching the ball last year too. We don't need to make excuses. They are just bad.

[Jobot]

13 hours ago, JaCrispy said:

The pass to Clay was catchable, but it was, most definitely, not perfect...in fact, in real time, it appeared low and away...but with a little more effort, the catch could have been made.

 

Clay shouldn't have been in the back of the endzone by that point in the play.  Once the play broke down you need to work back towards the qb... at least a little bit.  Allen threw the ball as hard as he could falling away.. can't ask much more from him.

[ddaryl]

21 minutes ago, HeHateMe said:

Clay deserves to go the way of Kelvin Benjamin..

 

Yeah he's gone after this year. Just not producing for the cost

[Shaw66]

32 minutes ago, ddaryl said:

 

Allens zingers are way more zing than most if not ALL QB's..... and those finger tip grabs are not as possible at those velocities. Coming out of break and grabbing a football that's already on its way is easier at lower velocity and that will even haunt the best finger tip catchers WR's in the game

 

As for Allen's speed cutting down on INT's well it goes both ways then.. Our WR's will be having issues at high velocity just like Opposing D's. Its a double edge sword, so its up to Allen to learn when to zip it with all he's got and when to take a few MPH off the throw in any given situation.

 

Yes a full Allen camp next year will help the O

 

 

This wasn't true for Elway.  His receivers learned to look just a little quicker and to handle the speed.  The defenders never got used to it because they couldn't practice it.

 

It gave Elway an edge that others didn't have.  

25 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

McKenzie hasn't had any issues catching his passes. Foster hasn't either since leaving the practice squad. Just Zay and Clay and Benjamin, and they all had trouble catching the ball last year too. We don't need to make excuses. They are just bad.

Actually, Mc and Foster aren't targeted over the middle like Zay and Clay. Those are the throws that are getting on the receivers quickly.  And Zay is catching them. Clay is having trouble with them. 

 

None of the Bills receivers are worldbeaters, and upgrades will be welcome.  

Edited December 19, 2018 by Shaw66

[CincyBillsFan]

10 hours ago, JaCrispy said:

Exactly what I thought...low and away and far from a perfect throw... but with a little more effort on Clay’s part, the catch could have been made...great screen shot here.

 

It's called throwing a WR open.  If our NFL TE can only muster high school level speed then he shouldn't be out there.  To me the photos make it even more clear that he should have caught the ball.  Or another way to look at it is if you drop a pass like that you better make a spectacular catch to make up for it. 

[ddaryl]

4 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

This wasn't true for Elway.  His receivers learned to look just a little quicker and to handle the speed.  The defenders never got used to it because they couldn't practice it.

 

It gave Elway an edge that others didn't have.  

 

Dude you do not know this.

 

Elway may have made a slight adjustment to his velocity that made a difference. Elway also had a long career and his early days were not much different then Allens. This signifies Elways may have also had very similar growing pains.

 

Yes the WR's will have to adjust to the velocity of Allens throws just the same but I do not blame some of the drops on WR's and I do not blame Allen either. Both need to make adjustments....  Yes we need upgrades and that will help but right now Allen has to adjust just the same> it will only make him better and more complete QB

[HappyDays]

10 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

Actually, Mc and Foster aren't targeted over the middle like Zay and Clay.

 

I've seen both of them catch tough passes over the middle where a defender was on them immediately. In fact I'm pretty sure just about all our drops since Allen returned from injury have been Jones, Clay, and Thompson. Foster has miraculously found his hands and McKenzie doesn't have any issues holding the ball until he is running with it. Allen is never going to be a perfectly precise passer like Brady. Instead of expecting him to suddenly become that kind of QB, we just need to get pass catchers that can make small adjustments. That's what the Chiefs offense is built around. Mahomes isn't blowing up the record book by throwing the ball to an exact spot. He's using his athleticism and pure arm strength to get the ball in the area of his receivers and they're doing the rest.

Edited December 19, 2018 by HappyDays

[Shaw66]

7 minutes ago, ddaryl said:

 

Dude you do not know this.

 

Actually, I do know this.  It was regularly commented on by offensive and defensive players during Elway's career.   The receivers said it took nearly a year to get used to it, and it was obvious watching defenders be unprepared when the ball arrived. 

[row_33]

25 minutes ago, ddaryl said:

 

Dude you do not know this.

 

Elway may have made a slight adjustment to his velocity that made a difference. Elway also had a long career and his early days were not much different then Allens. This signifies Elways may have also had very similar growing pains.

 

Yes the WR's will have to adjust to the velocity of Allens throws just the same but I do not blame some of the drops on WR's and I do not blame Allen either. Both need to make adjustments....  Yes we need upgrades and that will help but right now Allen has to adjust just the same> it will only make him better and more complete QB

 

Elway threw the ball way too hard throughout his career, i believe he learned to take it down a notch as he matured

 

Only Jeff George and Doug Williams threw it harder.

 

I was first base line at the ASG in Toronto when Rob Dibble picked up a routine no-hurry grounder to him and hurled it as hard as he could to first.  I forget the AllStar who fielded it but he stood there for a second and looked at his glove repeatedly as he walked back to the dugout

 

Edited December 19, 2018 by row_33

[Augie]

10 hours ago, Ol Dirty B said:

 

Meh... it seems more like you don't like what the stats are so then you seem them not reliable.

 

Routinely making catches that can't be made is one of the worst sentences I've ever read. It makes absolutely no sense. 

 

What happened to Jordy after he left GB? You really think Jordy made Rodgers?

 

No......I’ve been watching all the games. 

[row_33]

 

It will be nice when I don't feel Bills are dropping 100% catchable throws

 

or repeatedly doing this, things happen out there

 

Brady's crew dropped 3 of them last Sunday

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 19, 2018 by row_33

[Shaw66]

21 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

I've seen both of them catch tough passes over the middle where a defender was on them immediately. In fact I'm pretty sure just about all our drops since Allen returned from injury have been Jones, Clay, and Thompson. Foster has miraculously found his hands and McKenzie doesn't have any issues holding the ball until he is running with it. Allen is never going to be a perfectly precise passer like Brady. Instead of expecting him to suddenly become that kind of QB, we just need to get pass catchers that can make small adjustments. That's what the Chiefs offense is built around. Mahomes isn't blowing up the record book by throwing the ball to an exact spot. He's using his athleticism and pure arm strength to get the ball in the area of his receivers and they're doing the rest.

I don't disagree with this, but it's all irrelevant when the team is on the field. 

 

Do you think that Allen on the field isn't aware that Clay needs a more precise pass than Croom?   I'm sure he is.  

 

I haven't said and am not saying there's anything wrong with Allen. I'm a big Allen fan.  We're talking about a single play on the football field.  The truth is that where Allen put the ball, with Clay in the route, is a relatively low probability completion because Clay in 2018 doesn't make tough catches as often as he should.  Allen knew that before the throw and after the throw.

 

Should he not have made the throw? No, he made the right throw.  That's his job.  But if you ask him, speaking frankly he will tell you that he has to throw it better because Clay was the receiver. 

 

It's just the reality of playing games.  Steph Curry wants every pass he makes to be perfect, but he knows Clay Thompson will handle the inaccurate pass better than Dramond Green. 

[Bing Bong]

12 hours ago, nedboy7 said:

 

That ball is looks like a knuckle ball.  Not the easiest catch.  Still doesn't make sense.  It does hit him in the hands. 

Definitely a drop. Really no need to throw it so hard. He's not fitting it in tight coverage where no YAC is possible. Catchers that wide open are expecting a touch pass leading them to the YAC they already got their minds on getting.. then BOOM ball is rifled to our TE with not-so-great hands. Know your personnel when they are wide open.. Fitz would half *** putting any power in that throw just to make his own throw easier, an easy catch and YAC. 

 

But JA's got the arm it's probably easier for him to lead a WR by rifling it. When you throw it that hard you lead Clay by like half a yard. If you're throwing for YAC you have to take into account a lot more factors.. judge Clay's speed, where he should be directed to go by where you place the ball. Just food for thought. Definitely a drop with a TE with bad hands. It just didn't need to be really. You're blocking-first TE needs things to be easier on him when he's that wide open.

[row_33]

9 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

I don't disagree with this, but it's all irrelevant when the team is on the field. 

 

Do you think that Allen on the field isn't aware that Clay needs a more precise pass than Croom?   I'm sure he is.  

 

I haven't said and am not saying there's anything wrong with Allen. I'm a big Allen fan.  We're talking about a single play on the football field.  The truth is that where Allen put the ball, with Clay in the route, is a relatively low probability completion because Clay in 2018 doesn't make tough catches as often as he should.  Allen knew that before the throw and after the throw.

 

Should he not have made the throw? No, he made the right throw.  That's his job.  But if you ask him, speaking frankly he will tell you that he has to throw it better because Clay was the receiver. 

 

It's just the reality of playing games.  Steph Curry wants every pass he makes to be perfect, but he knows Clay Thompson will handle the inaccurate pass better than Dramond Green. 

 

even with my limited time at WR i still have nightmares about the coaching screaming at us for not securing passes we touched with the tip of our baby finger reaching out with total vulnerability to a helmet in the ribs

 

-3 trillion % sympathy for a slacker low-talent big-paycheck fatcat who can't catch a pass right into his hands

[LABILLBACKER]

This convaluted site is nonsense.  I've personally counted 15 drops in the last 4 games. 

[row_33]

9 minutes ago, LABILLBACKER said:

This convaluted site is nonsense.  I've personally counted 15 drops in the last 4 games. 

 

it's only a dropped pass if the ball wasn't delivered on a silver tea service to the fatass who butterfingered it

 

 

[Bing Bong]

1 hour ago, Shaw66 said:

Oldman

 

Read what I said.  I wasnt talking about "fault."  I'm talking about the reality of the game.   It's a simple fact that Clay's catch radius is completely different from Odell Beckham's.  That means you're going to have higher completion percentage throwing to Beckham. 

 

If Allen is running that play and sees his tight end, hes going to try to make an accurate throw, like he tries on every play.  But he knows that if Clay is the tight end, his probability of completing an Inaccurate pass is lower than if it's Croom.  It's a question of reality, not fault.  

 

The simple fact is that Clay running across the field at full speed isn't good at catching balls outside a relatively small catch radius. 

QBs need to know who their throwing to.. tendencies, etc. I 100% agree. If your receivers suck and are so wide open, make it easier on them if you can. Not that Clay shouldn't be better and Allen SHOULDN'T always have to worry about that, but that's the nature of the game. WRs all like their passes differently, be it lack of talent, preference of speed when thinking of YAC, catching with hands or body, etc. It points to an understandable lack of chemistry since Allen hasn't had much time to learn this constantly changing group. But that's room to improve on. Just because it's not technically his fault doesn't mean he could do better minding he's not working with good WRs.

 

It's a drop, but it certainly didn't need to be.. between Allen and Clay one of them has to make a wide open throw and catch look routine and easy.

[Shaw66]

8 minutes ago, BarkleyForGOATBackupPT5P said:

Definitely a drop. Really no need to throw it so hard. He's not fitting it in tight coverage where no YAC is possible. Catchers that wide open are expecting a touch pass leading them to the YAC they already got their minds on getting.. then BOOM ball is rifled to our TE with not-so-great hands. Know your personnel when they are wide open.. Fitz would half *** putting any power in that throw just to make his own throw easier, an easy catch and YAC. 

 

But JA's got the arm it's probably easier for him to lead a WR by rifling it. When you throw it that hard you lead Clay by like half a yard. If you're throwing for YAC you have to take into account a lot more factors.. judge Clay's speed, where he should be directed to go by where you place the ball. Just food for thought. Definitely a drop with a TE with bad hands. It just didn't need to be really. You're blocking-first TE needs things to be easier on him when he's that wide open.

Exactly.

[Bing Bong]

Just now, Shaw66 said:

Exactly.

didn't realize we both posted the same thing lol.

 

Great minds think alike

Edited December 19, 2018 by BarkleyForGOATBackupPT5P

[row_33]

What is this "lead the WR" you talk so freely of, as if we have seen this the last decade in Buffalo?

 

(a few glimpses this year)

 

 

 

 

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

3 hours ago, cd1 said:

You can see by these takes that CLAY misjudged the balls velocity.

 

Perhaps THIS is what happens when old players don't have to practice!

 

JMO

valid point