Jim Kelly vs. Dan Marino In The Snow

[Phil The Thrill]

Check this classic game out.  I was pretty young when it was played so this was pretty cool to watch.  The Bills and Dolphins rivalry at its finest.  

 

 

So a few thoughts from this game:

 

The atmosphere and energy in the old Rich Stadium was electric.  Tons of people everywhere.

 

Kelly and his receivers were at the top of their game.  Andre Reed did a ton of damage to Louis Oliver in the middle of the field.

 

The “Buffalo winter” advantage is a myth.  Dan Marino and the warm weather proved that snowy conditions have very little impact at slowing a good offense and QB.

 

Nate Odomos was just PNWED by Mark Duper time and time again.

 

Don Shula was somewhat overrated as a HC toward the end of his career.

 

Scott Norwood should have been replaced prior to the 1990 season.  He was not good.  You see the short FG that he kicked barey made it through the uprights and the ball traveled sideways.  This came back to bite them in the arse at SB25.

 

Bills D-line could get no pressure on Mario.  Maybe it’s the field?  Yet the receivers seemed to have no problem running on the snow.  

 

Andre Reed ran some awesome crossing routes.

 

Disappointed that we didn’t see the clip of a dejected Marino nearly crying on the sideline when time was running down in the game. 

 

What are are your thoughts?

 

[row_33]

Shula rode his SB success into the ground for two decades, hard to put blame on this, but fish fans in my life despised him the last 10 years. The TV announcers crowed about his untouchable genius nonstop but the results were never the same after the Sea of Hands game.

 

  Norwood was a decent kicker who was unfortunately asked to make a crucial kick from the far end of his range. A terrible strategy in football.

 

Ironic that Marino, who was ten times the QB Griese was, couldn’t play for a team that would dominate the Bills like the 70s Fish.

 

many thanks for the memory return on a day off!

 

 

 

 

Edited December 8, 2018 by row_33

[LeGOATski]

Man, those phins unis were ugly.

 

The velocity on Marino's throws... Allen's look the same.

[NoHuddleKelly12]

This is one of the games that sticks out the most for me during the Bills SB run—set the stage for playoff dominance over the fish, and showed that Kelly was perfectly capable of always going toe to toe with the Dolphin wunderkind at QB when the chips were down, and in fact always bested him in the playoffs. Quick note as to the fair weather team vs snowy Rich stadium issue—Marino like Kelly was born and bred in the QB cradle of western PA where it gets plenty cold and snowy, plus he also played his college ball at Pitt (NP’s alma mater, lol) So the fact is Marino would have played plenty of snow games in his life from the time he started with backyard ball. Not sure it matters all that much but for whatever it’s worth, the conditions on this day would not have fazed Danny anyway. Thanks for sharing this!

Edited December 8, 2018 by NoHuddleKelly12

[row_33]

My prize game of that era was Dec 90 and beating the full strength Giants at The Meadowlands, even with Kelly hurt

 

the day the Bills were now truly the best in football, held until the Norwood kick

 

 

[RalphWilson'sNewWar]

This was a fun game to be at!  Of course being pretty young, 8 years old, the memories aren’t all crystal clear.

 

Some plays here and there.  AND I recall the Halftime Band was Cancelled so they could plow the field.

 

I do recall that my family had a deal though, I got to go to the Divisonal Game but another family member took the second ticket to the Raiders Championship game.  Had to pick which one I wanted to go to.  Think I made out alright!  ?

 

Edited December 8, 2018 by RalphWilson'sNewWar

[Phil The Thrill]

48 minutes ago, row_33 said:

Shula rode his SB success into the ground for two decades, hard to put blame on this, but fish fans in my life despised him the last 10 years. The TV announcers crowed about his untouchable genius nonstop but the results were never the same after the Sea of Hands game.

 

  Norwood was a decent kicker who was unfortunately asked to make a crucial kick from the far end of his range. A terrible strategy in football.

 

Ironic that Marino, who was ten times the QB Griese was, couldn’t play for a team that would dominate the Bills like the 70s Fish.

 

many thanks for the memory return on a day off!

 

 

 

 

 

Disagree on Norwood.  He struggled mightily in 1990 and was far from his 1988 Pro Bowl form.  The warning signs were there that Norwood was on the decline in 1990.   In 1991 season it was blatantly obvious.  Notice how he never kicked for another team after his release?  Teams noticed.... he was done

[Helpmenow]

I have the complete game on DVD. Beautiful 

[ChevyVanMiller]

Always surprised to see how few fans wore Bills gear to,the games in that era. A hat or coat here and there, but jerseys almost never.

[row_33]

21 minutes ago, Phil The Thrill said:

 

Disagree on Norwood.  He struggled mightily in 1990 and was far from his 1988 Pro Bowl form.  The warning signs were there that Norwood was on the decline in 1990.   In 1991 season it was blatantly obvious.  Notice how he never kicked for another team after his release?  Teams noticed.... he was done

 

I said he was a decent kicker, was trying to be a bit nice, it was way too much to ask of him to make that....

 

The fans and media made him out to be a great kicker during his time in town, the hype never ended

 

Steve Christie would have made that kick blindfolded

 

 

 

 

[Phil The Thrill]

16 minutes ago, row_33 said:

 

I said he was a decent kicker, was trying to be a bit nice, it was way too much to ask of him to make that....

 

The fans and media made him out to be a great kicker during his time in town, the hype never ended

 

Steve Christie would have made that kick blindfolded

 

 

 

 

 

Well to his credit,  he did have a great season in 1988.  It was a career year and also the year the Bills won the AFCE in many years.  He did make several big kicks that year, so I think that endeared himself to Bills fans.  The problem was he was not that great the rest of his career.  

 

I feel that during those years teams stuck with players and coaches for a longer amount of time.  This is probably why they kept him 2 seasons too long.

[The Jokeman]

1 hour ago, Phil The Thrill said:

 

Well to his credit,  he did have a great season in 1988.  It was a career year and also the year the Bills won the AFCE in many years.  He did make several big kicks that year, so I think that endeared himself to Bills fans.  The problem was he was not that great the rest of his career.  

 

I feel that during those years teams stuck with players and coaches for a longer amount of time.  This is probably why they kept him 2 seasons too long.

All things considered Kelly's clock management in that final drive was poor, he could have easily run another play before the final kick and think Levy would know know Norwood's limits.

[Estelle Getty]

My biggest takeaway was how hard they all hit and constantly lead with the crown of their helmets. The game has definitely changed and after watching all of that head trauma I think it is for the better.  

[NoHuddleKelly12]

15 minutes ago, The Jokeman said:

All things considered Kelly's clock management in that final drive was poor, he could have easily run another play before the final kick and think Levy would know know Norwood's limits.

Norwood was hitting solidly in pregame warmups from 45+ so that was at the outside  range yes, but doable. And in terms of clock mgmt, running one more play would have been dicey at best—and too much risk for something bad happening (fumble, INT, penalty, clock runoff in bounds) to chance not getting a kick off at all. You might say Kelly put them in position to win at the end like Allen did just last week when it was all said and done, and it just didn’t work out—it happens. Just hate that in both examples it happened to us. But let’s see how this team responds this week. 

Edited December 8, 2018 by NoHuddleKelly12

[row_33]

1 hour ago, The Jokeman said:

All things considered Kelly's clock management in that final drive was poor, he could have easily run another play before the final kick and think Levy would know know Norwood's limits.

 

That was the Bills strategy, to squeak out a winning FG at Norwood’s outer range

 

it failed

 

Parcells and Belichick completely outcoached  the Bills and stole that SB and the rest is history 

2 hours ago, Phil The Thrill said:

 

Well to his credit,  he did have a great season in 1988.  It was a career year and also the year the Bills won the AFCE in many years.  He did make several big kicks that year, so I think that endeared himself to Bills fans.  The problem was he was not that great the rest of his career.  

 

I feel that during those years teams stuck with players and coaches for a longer amount of time.  This is probably why they kept him 2 seasons too long.

 

They kept him around for another year, so he wasn’t ruined by the miss, but Christie immediately showed what an elite kicker looked like

[NoHuddleKelly12]

The fan at 5:04 mark has a great newspaper—hope he saved it for the JA run! ??

[TroutDog]

I see men playing the game of football. While that is still done, the ridiculous penalties, questioning what a ‘catch’ is, not allowing a QB to be really touched, etc the game has declined. 

 

I still love it (with guilt) and am glad they are working to protect the players, but some aspects have pushed the envelope. 

 

Boy, those were fun years for Bills football! I believe we’ll see them again soon! I watched this one from home. ? 

[Nextmanup]

4 hours ago, Phil The Thrill said:

Check this classic game out.  I was pretty young when it was played so this was pretty cool to watch.  The Bills and Dolphins rivalry at its finest.  

 

 

So a few thoughts from this game:

 

The atmosphere and energy in the old Rich Stadium was electric.  Tons of people everywhere.

 

Kelly and his receivers were at the top of their game.  Andre Reed did a ton of damage to Louis Oliver in the middle of the field.

 

The “Buffalo winter” advantage is a myth.  Dan Marino and the warm weather proved that snowy conditions have very little impact at slowing a good offense and QB.

 

Nate Odomos was just PNWED by Mark Duper time and time again.

 

Don Shula was somewhat overrated as a HC toward the end of his career.

 

Scott Norwood should have been replaced prior to the 1990 season.  He was not good.  You see the short FG that he kicked barey made it through the uprights and the ball traveled sideways.  This came back to bite them in the arse at SB25.

 

Bills D-line could get no pressure on Mario.  Maybe it’s the field?  Yet the receivers seemed to have no problem running on the snow.  

 

Andre Reed ran some awesome crossing routes.

 

Disappointed that we didn’t see the clip of a dejected Marino nearly crying on the sideline when time was running down in the game. 

 

What are are your thoughts?

 

Glad you've become aware of this.

 

Every time I hear some pundit talk about Buffalo in the cold and snow I cringe, including the current HC of the team.

 

The best Bills era on record is when we had a revolutionary, dynamic passing attack.

 

McDermott's "win all games 10-7" philosophy is outdated and doomed to failure.

 

 

 

 

 

[NoHuddleKelly12]

37 minutes ago, Nextmanup said:

Glad you've become aware of this.

 

Every time I hear some pundit talk about Buffalo in the cold and snow I cringe, including the current HC of the team.

 

The best Bills era on record is when we had a revolutionary, dynamic passing attack.

 

McDermott's "win all games 10-7" philosophy is outdated and doomed to failure.

 

 

 

 

 

IDK; seems to me like the Bills have been pushing the ball vertically over the past month and other threads here are backing up the notion that Daboll is making a concerted effort to use JA’s skill set in all respects including mid-deep routes. I’d say we’re a lot of things but a short game passing attack or all Shady/Ivory all the time? Not so much. If McD was not on board with that, it wouldn’t be happening. I think the 4 week stretch of truly awfulness while JA was out has tainted a lot of us and the discussion of the O philosophy. But we’ll see what happens the rest of the way.

[LSHMEAB]

Did you see Kelly adjust mid throw on the lollipop to Reed in the 2nd quarter?

 

That's what I want to see from Allen.

[C.Biscuit97]

Sneaky fact: Kelly wasn’t a good playoff qb.

[Phil The Thrill]

12 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Sneaky fact: Kelly wasn’t a good playoff qb.

 

Explain....because the stats and the scoreboard say otherwise

[C.Biscuit97]

2 minutes ago, Phil The Thrill said:

 

Explain....because the stats and the scoreboard say otherwise

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/K/KellJi00.htm

 

21 tds, 28 ints, 72.3 QBs rating.  Also, he should have run Thurman Thomas 30 times in the first SB.  

 

And I’ll leave this right here  :  https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/R/ReicFr00.htm

 

 

[Lenigmusx]

4 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/K/KellJi00.htm

 

21 tds, 28 ints, 72.3 QBs rating.  Also, he should have run Thurman Thomas 30 times in the first SB.  

 

And I’ll leave this right here  :  https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/R/ReicFr00.htm

 

 

I remember very well and he was an excellent playoff QB. The Stats are skewed by 3 tremendously bad Super Bowls, the Pittsburgh game in 95' and Jacksonville in 96'. If you look at his stats without those games his Stats are great. 

 

My take away watching 20 plus years removed is Andre Reed was impossible to cover and Marino and Kelly could both drop the ball on a dime. These teams under 1990's rules would crush today's teams. The toughness was so much greater. 

I will say Kelly knew how to lay an egg at the worst times though...

[Flip Johnson]

In an era where receivers were not protected, Reed was incredible after the catch. One of the best all time.

34 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Sneaky fact: Kelly wasn’t a good playoff qb.

 

This is a truly absurd statement.

 

Kelly has some bad stats in a few games that got away. He decimated the AFC in the playoffs for years and led the Bills in some very cold weather games.

[row_33]

41 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Sneaky fact: Kelly wasn’t a good playoff qb.

 

None of Jim or Thurman or Andre were elite, but very very good and meshed perfectly 

 

Bruce was elite

 

 

 

 

[Phil The Thrill]

33 minutes ago, row_33 said:

 

None of Jim or Thurman or Andre were elite, but very very good and meshed perfectly 

 

Bruce was elite

 

 

 

 

 

That’s very much debatable considering that Kelly and Thurman are Hall of Famers.  Isn’t that the definition of Elite?

53 minutes ago, Lenigmusx said:

I remember very well and he was an excellent playoff QB. The Stats are skewed by 3 tremendously bad Super Bowls, the Pittsburgh game in 95' and Jacksonville in 96'. If you look at his stats without those games his Stats are great. 

 

My take away watching 20 plus years removed is Andre Reed was impossible to cover and Marino and Kelly could both drop the ball on a dime. These teams under 1990's rules would crush today's teams. The toughness was so much greater. 

I will say Kelly knew how to lay an egg at the worst times though...

 

Yes this.  Actually the Jacksonville and Pittsburgh games are the only two playoff games that I can remember thinking that Kelly “lost” for the team.  This stat is garbage.

[Beast]

6 hours ago, The Jokeman said:

All things considered Kelly's clock management in that final drive was poor, he could have easily run another play before the final kick and think Levy would know know Norwood's limits.

 

He drove the team 61 yards in 2 minutes against the best defense in the game.

 

The”Kelly’s clock management stunk” narrative is retarded.

[BillsPride12]

3 hours ago, row_33 said:

 

None of Jim or Thurman or Andre were elite, but very very good and meshed perfectly 

 

Bruce was elite

 

 

 

 

Thurman Thomas was absolutely elite...1991 NFL MVP, Led NFL in total yards from scrimmage 4 years in a row, was considered Top 3 RB in his era along with Emmitt and Barry.  I can see at least a debate over Jim and Andre but you cannot tell me that Thurman wasn't considered an elite RB during his playing days...hell to this day!

[Lenigmusx]

8 hours ago, row_33 said:

 

None of Jim or Thurman or Andre were elite, but very very good and meshed perfectly 

 

Bruce was elite

 

 

 

 

Just a quick fair question... Are you old enough to have lived through the 1990's Bills? Or are you posting from a modern perspective watching historical footage? It was the most elite roster ever assembled to that point. That is why the four super bowl losses  are even more painful and absurd. Trust me... if you lived it you know. If you are younger than 35 you can't know. Sorry

Edited December 9, 2018 by Lenigmusx

[NoHuddleKelly12]

On 12/8/2018 at 1:59 PM, C.Biscuit97 said:

Sneaky fact: Kelly wasn’t a good playoff qb.

Ok, great, thanks for that sneaky fact! Only 9 wins in the playoffs. And I’ll be sure to let each of the other HOF QB’s that he beat in the playoffs (combined 0-6 against Kelly) know that they should’ve never lost to him, like Dan Marino (90, 92, 95) John Elway (91), Warren Moon (88) and Joe Montana (93). I guess they just didn’t read your memo in time. 

 

I guess all of those national non-Buffalo HOF committee voters just didn’t know enough about Kelly in the playoffs to keep him from getting into the Hall on the 1st ballot. What suckers! I mean, 8 playoffs in 11 seasons, 6 division titles and 4 conference championships in a row are so <yawn>. Thankfully our franchise has done so much better since he played, right? I mean, sure, not even the G.O.A.T with Hoodie has ever won 4 AFC titles in a row (or even 3 in a row) while dominating us over the past 2 decades, but whatever, at least Kelly still sucked in the playoffs. ?

Edited December 10, 2018 by NoHuddleKelly12

[Bing Bong]

On 12/8/2018 at 10:19 AM, Estelle Getty said:

My biggest takeaway was how hard they all hit and constantly lead with the crown of their helmets. The game has definitely changed and after watching all of that head trauma I think it is for the better.  

I know. It's crazy watching old games like that and thinking their bells have to be getting rung every other play. I caught the Packers Broncos SB highlights and the trenches were.. a nightmare for the knees. Never seen so many cut blocks in my life before I watched those SB Broncos teams. Actually looked like dirty play given the Packers and other opponents of the day didn't do it so exclusively like the Broncos did.. to great advantage.

[Tenhigh]

On ‎12‎/‎8‎/‎2018 at 9:22 AM, ChevyVanMiller said:

Always surprised to see how few fans wore Bills gear to,the games in that era. A hat or coat here and there, but jerseys almost never.

My first jersey was a "Champion Outlet" special.  In 1990, my brother (in college at the time) bought me a Christmas present for $5 in the misprint bin, it had 78 on the front and back and 97 on the sleeves.  I would KILL to have that back today, lol.