The blame lies squarely with the HC, FO & Refusal to build an Offense - Not Allen

[Reed83HOF]

With Allen's developmental issues, the offense has to be simplified for half-field reads and I would assume elementary play calls. If he is not moving around in the pocket well and having trouble making reads; the entire offense has to be dummed down for him.

[C.Biscuit97]

32 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

I don't think the front office "refused" to do anything. The salary cap did. And they still managed to build a pretty good defense. 

1). They traded up for Zay instead of staying out and picking JuJu or Cooper Kupp.

 

2). They thought Jordan Matthews could replace Sammy as a threat.

 

3). They picked 2 undersized slot receivers this year instead of taking a guy like ESB from Notre Dame who is 6’5” and had 80 yards last game.

 

4). They traded draft picks for Kelvin Benjamin.

 

5) they hired Dennison, fired him and Tyrod, hired Daboll and on a historically awful pace offensively.

 

6) they keep Peterman, nice guy, around to be terrible.

 

i know it’s cool to try and blame Whaley and the salary cap for all of the problems but it’s not true.  A lot of the offensive moves are self inflicted. 

[GunnerBill]

1 hour ago, Reed83HOF said:

 

 

Look through the last two games and the offensive execution is offensive. I am not ready to blame Daboll. I don't think he has any talent to work with. These guys can't and don't do the basics. 

[GG]

1 hour ago, MAJBobby said:

 

Sure. Glenn would be better than say Mills 

 

Sammy would add a better element than say I dont run routes Pre Game Benjamin. 

 

He walked. They wanted him at 3.5 a year. He walked. So yeah Still nothing. 

 

 

So i ask again. What have they dont ON OFFENSE that gives you confidence they know how to build one?

 

It would be great to keep all those underperforming players at top salaries, wouldn't it? 

 

Bottom line is that all the players who the team voluntarily cast off haven't done squat compared to their replacements.

 

It's still too early to call the finish game on offense because they spent the ammo on Allen.  I said above, the biggest mistake was not going after Bridgewater.  He would have won the starting job outright over Peterman.

 

Beane took a lot of flack for not being more aggressive in getting a vet QB this spring, yet all of those guys look like fools' gold right now.   This offense is suffering from only one glaring problem - the QB.  Allen shouldn't be on the field yet and Peterman sucks.  Everything else flows from there.

 

[DuckyBoys]

Well the majority of the draft picks and free agency money have been poured into defense the last two years.  I can see Beane drafting a db with the first pick in 2019.  Offense has no speed no quickness besides whatever McCoy has left.  They need to poach a young talented WR from a team that cant pay to keep him.

[GG]

Just now, ScottLaw said:

These guys would've done the exact same thing the Jets did with Bridgewater had they signed him.

 

They obviously took stock in Petermans preseason performance so I have no doubt they would've traded Bridgewater in a heartbeat for a similar return that the Jets got for him.

 

They would have traded Bridgewater if he was as putrid as McCarron was in preseason.  Don't ignore that tidbit of history when formulating your opinion. 

 

I think the Bills had every intention of starting the season with McCarron and he failed spectacularly to win the job.

 

Bridgewater was the best QB in Jets' preseason games, while McCarron was the worst for the Bills.

[Billsfan1972]

2 minutes ago, GG said:

 

They would have traded Bridgewater if he was as putrid as McCarron was in preseason.  Don't ignore that tidbit of history when formulating your opinion. 

 

I think the Bills had every intention of starting the season with McCarron and he failed spectacularly to win the job.

 

Bridgewater was the best QB in Jets' preseason games, while McCarron was the worst for the Bills.

And Bridgewater is a much better QB then McCarron and put up decent #'s with Minn before the injury and being squeezed out.  The got another 5th round no talent in McCarron and still think highly of Peterman.  

 

No confidence whatsoever in the FO/Coach. 

[GG]

2 minutes ago, Billsfan1972 said:

And Bridgewater is a much better QB then McCarron and put up decent #'s with Minn before the injury and being squeezed out.  The got another 5th round no talent in McCarron and still think highly of Peterman.  

 

No confidence whatsoever in the FO/Coach. 

 

There's no question that Bridgewater is better than McCarron and Peterman, if healthy.  But for that, you have to question almost every team's medical personnel for their concerns about his ability to play in 2018.   In a QB starved league, he went to the Jets as the #3 QB

[Reed83HOF]

18 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Look through the last two games and the offensive execution is offensive. I am not ready to blame Daboll. I don't think he has any talent to work with. These guys can't and don't do the basics. 

Oh I agree. I also think he is calling a very simplified offense for Allen, half-field reads, RPOs and such along with very basic routes. He has to be mitigating Allen's limited pocket movement and his inability/lack of speed to read a defense. 

 

[Nitro]

As a fan since the mid 1960s I have seen my share of putrid Bills football.  This front office/HC team is building a solid defense.  More depth at LB and starting caliber CB will make them a top 10 defense.  The offense is in need of an infusion of talent.  I suspect the brain trust will focus their attention on upgrading through the draft and possibly mid level FA next off season. This offense is painful to watch.   WR is has only one guy I would keep, Zay Jones as a #3 slot guy.  The rest are expendable.  O line needs to be beefed up.  Protect the QB is a must since Allen is the future so take care of him. Pound the rock, run the clock and limit the throws until this young guy gets his sea legs as a NFL QB.  I give this front office an other off season to turn this around and improve. 

[BillsVet]

3 hours ago, Dopey said:

That last sentence is EPIC. 17 years and we make the playoffs and you're complaining about it. Let me guess, you kneeled to the floor yelling "noooo! We can't get in this way!!" When Cincy scored that td.

Give it a rest already. Trust me, he respects himself and doesn't care if you don't.

 

No one's complaining about the result from last season. I'm certainly not. And this is a message board, not McCoach's Twitter feed, so I don't care what he thinks.  I was talking about how they were a really mediocre team that lucked into the playoffs.

 

This is a rebuild going nowhere.  They've misfired at the QB, spent a ton on defense, and still don't field anything resembling a modern offense. As to the thread subject, they've built nothing on offense and their major accomplishment has been the mere drafting of a QB in the 1st round.  That's it. Otherwise, in rebuild year 2, this is the lowest scoring team in the NFL through 6 weeks. Let that sink in and then tell me they're making progress. 

 

Now, cue the "rebuilds take time" mantra. Yeah, they do. They take a lot longer when the "process" is flawed from inception. 

[CardinalScotts]

not much could be done along the offensive line - play him let him get experience stop anticipating victories were not good

 

[GG]

18 minutes ago, Reed83HOF said:

Oh I agree. I also think he is calling a very simplified offense for Allen, half-field reads, RPOs and such along with very basic routes. He has to be mitigating Allen's limited pocket movement and his inability/lack of speed to read a defense. 

 

 

Remember how Nate Hackett was vilified when he ran the Bills offense?

 

It was very similar in what he had to do to dumb the game down for EJ.  Suddenly when Tuel & Lewis came in, the offense opened up.  

[DuckyBoys]

1 minute ago, Nitro said:

As a fan since the mid 1960s I have seen my share of putrid Bills football.  This front office/HC team is building a solid defense.  More depth at LB and starting caliber CB will make them a top 10 defense.  The offense is in need of an infusion of talent.  I suspect the brain trust will focus their attention on upgrading through the draft and possibly mid level FA next off season. This offense is painful to watch.   WR is has only one guy I would keep, Zay Jones as a #3 slot guy.  The rest are expendable.  O line needs to be beefed up.  Protect the QB is a must since Allen is the future so take care of him. Pound the rock, run the clock and limit the throws until this young guy gets his sea legs as a NFL QB.  I give this front office an other off season to turn this around and improve. 

We'll see . I hope Beane has a much better plan for offense for 2019  .  He needs to upgrade at minimum T and the two WR on the outside. Have some provisions in mind  They way they handled qb this year was pretty terrible 

[Nitro]

Just now, DuckyBoys said:

We'll see . I hope Beane has a much better plan for offense for 2019  .  He needs to upgrade at minimum T and the two WR on the outside. Have some provisions in mind  They way they handled qb this year was pretty terrible 

The QB situation is a mess.  

 

[dave mcbride]

37 minutes ago, GG said:

 

They would have traded Bridgewater if he was as putrid as McCarron was in preseason.  Don't ignore that tidbit of history when formulating your opinion. 

 

I think the Bills had every intention of starting the season with McCarron and he failed spectacularly to win the job.

 

Bridgewater was the best QB in Jets' preseason games, while McCarron was the worst for the Bills.

I think this is basically right, but what I focus on is judging Peterman on preseason games. McCarron is actually a serviceable backup and has proven it in real-live NFL games. Preseason performances can only tell you so much, especially at the QB position when defenses are very vanilla. They should have realized that, but they learned the hard way that Peterman is the same guy they put out on the field in real games last year (outside of garbage time v. New Orleans, which was basically a preseason level game by that point).  

[DaBillsFanSince1973]

5 hours ago, Billsfan1972 said:

Why the hate for Allen?  This staff & FO have done nothing to help Josh.  The playcalling and game plans are stuck in the 70's.  McDermott & McBeane have abandoned the offense and in their stupidity had Peterman as the starter and Allen's mentor.  Now they bring in another back-up with at least some experience, but little else.  

 

I watched yesterday and again Allen looked okay, but was playing against a stacked deck that this Bills organization is to blame for.  

 

BTW the two passes to KB were great along with that cross body to McCoy.  

 

Not much however one can do with coaches who refuse to acknowledge and have players or a system that wins games in today's NFL.

 

who hates allen? only the schmucks that like to clutter the board do with their agendas and haven't the patience to see this pan out. anyone with any common sense can see this team is in its second year of a rebuild that should and likely will address the offensive side of the ball this off season in the draft and FA.

 

if they don't, then one can start to show some real concern?

[DuckyBoys]

14 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

I think this is basically right, but what I focus on is judging Peterman on preseason games. McCarron is actually a serviceable backup and has proven it in real-live NFL games. Preseason performances can only tell you so much, especially at the QB position when defenses are very vanilla. They should have realized that, but they learned the hard way that Peterman is the same guy they put out on the field in real games last year (outside of garbage time v. New Orleans, which was basically a preseason level game by that point).  

I think their plan was MCCaron all the way  I wonder what he did to get run out so quick.  I cant believe they honestly thought Peterman was a better option  Looking back they should have named Mccaron the guy day one and stuck with it or give all the reps to Allen   The wishy washy decision making led to the mess on offense along with not bringing in any help

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

27 minutes ago, BillsVet said:

They've misfired at the QB,

 

this right here makes it completely logical to ignore the rest of your post.

 

You've made this determination after a third of a season.

 

[Reed83HOF]

48 minutes ago, GG said:

 

Remember how Nate Hackett was vilified when he ran the Bills offense?

 

It was very similar in what he had to do to dumb the game down for EJ.  Suddenly when Tuel & Lewis came in, the offense opened up.  

Shudders at the thoughts of all of those names...

[GunnerBill]

49 minutes ago, BillsVet said:

 

No one's complaining about the result from last season. I'm certainly not. And this is a message board, not McCoach's Twitter feed, so I don't care what he thinks.  I was talking about how they were a really mediocre team that lucked into the playoffs.

 

This is a rebuild going nowhere.  They've misfired at the QB, spent a ton on defense, and still don't field anything resembling a modern offense. As to the thread subject, they've built nothing on offense and their major accomplishment has been the mere drafting of a QB in the 1st round.  That's it. Otherwise, in rebuild year 2, this is the lowest scoring team in the NFL through 6 weeks. Let that sink in and then tell me they're making progress. 

 

Now, cue the "rebuilds take time" mantra. Yeah, they do. They take a lot longer when the "process" is flawed from inception. 

 

I agree with the first bit. It wasn't even the best Bills team of the last 18 years. It doesn't mean they don't deserve credit for getting in - but they were not a really good team that is just a fact.

 

As for whether the process was flawed.... I don't know that I agree with that. I think the process was close to the right one. I think the player evaluation of some of the guys they have brought in is what is wrong. They still like Nate Peterman for some reason and there are a plethora of other evluation mistakes. Yes, they picked Tre White and Matt Milano and Taron Johnson. They deserve credit for that. But they also drafted Zay Jones and Peterman and traded for Benjamin and brought in Jordan Matthews and Jeremy Kerley and some questionable olinemen. 

 

 

[Billsguy]

6 hours ago, Billsfan1972 said:

Why the hate for Allen?  This staff & FO have done nothing to help Josh.  The playcalling and game plans are stuck in the 70's.  McDermott & McBeane have abandoned the offense and in their stupidity had Peterman as the starter and Allen's mentor.  Now they bring in another back-up with at least some experience, but little else.  

 

I watched yesterday and again Allen looked okay, but was playing against a stacked deck that this Bills organization is to blame for.  

 

BTW the two passes to KB were great along with that cross body to McCoy.  

 

Not much however one can do with coaches who refuse to acknowledge and have players or a system that wins games in today's NFL.

 

It is ALL about the management from the president of the Bills (K Pegula), to the GM, to the head coach, to the assistant coaches. They are failing in every way. In particular, the GM and head coach are very mediocre. They have made numerous bad decisions too many to list, but the bottom line is that the team is not progressing. Personnel decisions have been particularly bad Mr. Beane. What kind of organization puts out a QB like Peterman into NFL games when he is clearly not capable. This organization would prefer to lose with Peterman rather than hire a much better QB (Kaepernick) because of politics and non-football BS. This organization is seriously flawed. Here we go again.

[C.Biscuit97]

1 hour ago, GG said:

 

Remember how Nate Hackett was vilified when he ran the Bills offense?

 

It was very similar in what he had to do to dumb the game down for EJ.  Suddenly when Tuel & Lewis came in, the offense opened up.  

EJ averaged more yards passing than the other 2 qbs.  For as bad as EJ was, he averaged 197 yards passing per game.  That’s how bad this offense is!

[BillsVet]

40 minutes ago, joesixpack said:

 

this right here makes it completely logical to ignore the rest of your post.

 

You've made this determination after a third of a season.

I'm referring to the QB decision sequence McBeane have demonstrated:

 

1. Starting Peterman versus LA last year. 

2. Dealing McCarron for a song which meant:

3. Having an opening day depth chart of Peterman and Allen.

4. Peterman stepping all over himself in Week 1, leaving Allen the only option.

5. Not signing a veteran at all after Week 1.

6. Allen having to play before he's truly ready.

7. Peterman having to play by default yesterday.

 

I'm not closing the door in any way on Allen, but he's in way over his head at this point.  Doesn't remove the fact that everything else decision wise has been inept.

Edited October 15, 2018 by BillsVet

[dakrider]

Bills made huge mistake starting the season with 2 completely inexperienced quarterbacks.  But also having just barely NFL capable receivers and an average at best Offensive line - I'm not sure what some of you are expecting.   I watched the Denver Broncos with an experienced QB and some of the best relievers in the league, get 2 different first down and goals and have to settle for 2 field goals in loss to Rams.  You have to be clicking on all cylinders to succeed in the NFL.   

[ctk232]

6 hours ago, bmur66 said:

I prefer the Andy Reid approach myself. Not at all confident this team has the staff to build a high powered offense. I can’t understand how you go all in on a QB that everybody knows needs a year on the sidelines and then throw him out there with nothing. 

Defense is playing well and that’s all great and everything but all that emphasis should have been placed on building an offense first. I really like Josh Allen but I am afraid they are going to hurt his development by the choices they have made.

 

While I agree that what Andy Reid did for Mahomes was perfect for Mahomes given the roster and coaching staff available, Allen would likely still have the same raw struggles this year regardless, but just with players that put the support in supporting cast. I think people would be more upset if we did have a competent offense, because there are issues with Allen that a talented offense can't compensate for. Regardless of Reid's offensive background versus McD's defensive background (although I believe this to be a major contributing factor in QB development), Reid also has decades of experience as an HC over McD and has seen these threads play out in many different cases. But we really need to stop comparing things to Mahomes and Reid, because we don't have any of that nor is Allen Patrick Mahomes.

 

The kid needed development, whether that was starting his first year or not, but makes more sense to commit to an offense once they know with greater clarity, the QB they drafted, and how their defensive rebuild is progressing. I think they'll now look for players that fit a scheme and skill set that will be more designed for Allen's play style, strengths, and understanding of game fundamentals. Or at least that's my hope...

Edited October 15, 2018 by ctk232

[bmur66]

1 hour ago, ctk232 said:

 

While I agree that what Andy Reid did for Mahomes was perfect for Mahomes given the roster and coaching staff available, Allen would likely still have the same raw struggles this year regardless, but just with players that put the support in supporting cast. I think people would be more upset if we did have a competent offense, because there are issues with Allen that a talented offense can't compensate for. Regardless of Reid's offensive background versus McD's defensive background (although I believe this to be a major contributing factor in QB development), Reid also has decades of experience as an HC over McD and has seen these threads play out in many different cases. But we really need to stop comparing things to Mahomes and Reid, because we don't have any of that nor is Allen Patrick Mahomes.

 

The kid needed development, whether that was starting his first year or not, but makes more sense to commit to an offense once they know with greater clarity, the QB they drafted, and how their defensive rebuild is progressing. I think they'll now look for players that fit a scheme and skill set that will be more designed for Allen's play style, strengths, and understanding of game fundamentals. Or at least that's my hope...

Good take. Sounds like a plan

[Dopey]

2 hours ago, BillsVet said:

 

No one's complaining about the result from last season. I'm certainly not. And this is a message board, not McCoach's Twitter feed, so I don't care what he thinks.  I was talking about how they were a really mediocre team that lucked into the playoffs.

 

This is a rebuild going nowhere.  They've misfired at the QB, spent a ton on defense, and still don't field anything resembling a modern offense. As to the thread subject, they've built nothing on offense and their major accomplishment has been the mere drafting of a QB in the 1st round.  That's it. Otherwise, in rebuild year 2, this is the lowest scoring team in the NFL through 6 weeks. Let that sink in and then tell me they're making progress. 

 

Now, cue the "rebuilds take time" mantra. Yeah, they do. They take a lot longer when the "process" is flawed from inception. 

 They're making progress.

Whether you think so or not, this is a subjective conversation. We're not all going to agree. Unless we agree to disagree. I'm kool with that.

[BillsVet]

15 hours ago, Dopey said:

 They're making progress.

Whether you think so or not, this is a subjective conversation. We're not all going to agree. Unless we agree to disagree. I'm kool with that.

 

Understood and agree to disagree. And I'm good with that.

[ALF]

It would be nice if the Bills had the scouting to find good talent and coaches who could develop them.

[Billsfan1972]

And now the Allen injury watch begins and who will start Sunday.

 

McDermott has a no lose situation Sunday if Anderson starts and a vanilla offense as he was not ready to go deep in the playbook.

 

If Peterman starts it will all be to ensure he is just bad (his ceiling) vs. artrocious, abysmal, pathetic, overwhelmed, disastrous.......

 

 

[Helpmenow]

On 10/15/2018 at 9:51 AM, OldTimeAFLGuy said:

 

...agree.......starting to think McDermott has too much power and too much say..........thinks he should be GM,HC & Personnel Director like his idol Andy.......does McBeane report TO him?...

Never hear from the GM. McDermott seems like he is the GM.

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

6 minutes ago, Helpmenow said:

Never hear from the GM. McDermott seems like he is the GM.

 

 

...maybe I'm WAAAAAY off base......but allegedly, McDermott idolizes Andy being from his tree......Andy is GM, HC AND Personnel Director in KC.......but other than his playoff record, those stripes are WELL EARNED.....if and a BIG IF McDermott thinks he should be in the same power wielding category as his idol, the neophyte needs some serious "attitude adjustment".....

Edited October 16, 2018 by OldTimeAFLGuy

[Helpmenow]

Marv was the coach and polian ran the show.

Edited October 16, 2018 by Helpmenow