In case you forgot: 2-1 since flipping switch against LAC

[BringBackOrton]

3 hours ago, Warcodered said:

So in other words you're unhappy they didn't pick the one you wanted.

No.  Deshaun Watson and Patrick Mahomes are 1000000000% better QBs than Josh Allen right now.  That's pure objective fact.

36 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

 

Yup, acting like they "got it right" makes absolutely no sense ... anymore than pretending they got it wrong.

 

What they've done is started a process. If you become a GM, great, do it your way and we'll evaluate. But in the meantime, if they don't want Dareus on their team after seeing him for months, that's not a mistake. It's a choice which has a long way to go before it will be proven correct or incorrect. If they build a terrific team, their process will have been proven successful. If their team has been proven still sucky after four or five years, their method will have been proven unsuccessful.

 

Putting together groups like the one you have above in your third paragraph is an academic exercise at best. You can't compare a list of names to another list of names and find out if they're better than another list. It's whether that group of guys can play well ... together ... with that coach ... under the coach's system ... within that team's salary cap constrictions. We now know that Dareus can't play for McD. We also know that the owner asked our GM to get the salary cap mess cleaned up by the end of this year, impossible with your list, which is almost certainly why Woods, Watkins, Dareus, Gilmore and a few others aren't here.

 

But arguing anyone is dead wrong at this point is ... well, it's dead wrong. We'll have a much better idea in a year or two. Now, we don't know.

 

 

 

 

That draft was Tre White, Zay, Dion Dawkins, and Milano. Those are three terrific value picks even without Zay, who still might turn out to be a good one if we're lucky and he keeps developing.

They threw out the baby with the bathwater.  They have to prove their baby is better. When we have 1 million posts on how the offense sucks, how this team has no talent, how this is the growing pains, that's completely on McBeane's shoulders.  They created this roster.  They accelerated dead cap by moving players they didn't have to.  They traded a 3rd round pick for KB.  They let go or released or traded players.

[Warcodered]

8 minutes ago, BringBackOrton said:

No.  Deshaun Watson and Patrick Mahomes are 1000000000% better QBs than Josh Allen right now.  That's pure objective fact.

They threw out the baby with the bathwater.  They have to prove their baby is better. When we have 1 million posts on how the offense sucks, how this team has no talent, how this is the growing pains, that's completely on McBeane's shoulders.  They created this roster.  They accelerated dead cap by moving players they didn't have to.  They traded a 3rd round pick for KB.  They let go or released or traded players.

Yeah okay sure...so are we just going to pretend that drafting a QB in that draft was realistic and also should I be making my shocked face when rookies from the previous draft are playing better than the ones that just got here.

 

Also I forgot to ask but how exactly do you think they should of torn down the team for the rebuild so they still somehow win anyway.

Edited October 9, 2018 by Warcodered

[BringBackOrton]

3 minutes ago, Warcodered said:

Yeah okay sure...so are we just going to pretend that drafting a QB in that draft was realistic and also should I be making my shocked face when rookies from the previous draft are playing better than the ones that just got here.

 

Also I forgot to ask but how exactly do you think they should of torn down the team for the rebuild so they still somehow win anyway.

So instead we are supposed to pretend that McD was physically unable from writing Watson or Mahomes on that card?

 

So instead we are supposed to pretend that trading Dareus for a sixth round pick, accelerating his cap hit and then doubling down by signing Star to a long term deal to do exactly what Dareus was doing was physically necessary?

 

You want my rebuild strategy? Okay.

 

Don't trade Darby.  Take Watkins fifth year option.  Boom.  Starting NFL caliber CB and WR.  Draft a rookie QB.  Look at that, he has a WR who can get open, AND we still have a CB who can play in the NFL.  Don't trade Dareus, he's a sunk cost and trading him leaves a hole at DT you'll need to fill with an overpriced FA anyway who won't have All-Pro potential.  Boom.  Starting DT to eat up blockers at the very least.

 

There you go.  Win now and in the future.  Easy as pie.

 

[Ol Dirty B]

5 hours ago, longtimebillsfan said:

Exactly!  Thank you for being a voice of reason and perspective. 

 

Flipping a switch at half time of a game you were getting blown out in just screams reason and perspective.

7 minutes ago, BringBackOrton said:

So instead we are supposed to pretend that McD was physically unable from writing Watson or Mahomes on that card?

 

So instead we are supposed to pretend that trading Dareus for a sixth round pick, accelerating his cap hit and then doubling down by signing Star to a long term deal to do exactly what Dareus was doing was physically necessary?

 

You want my rebuild strategy? Okay.

 

Don't trade Darby.  Take Watkins fifth year option.  Boom.  Starting NFL caliber CB and WR.  Draft a rookie QB.  Look at that, he has a WR who can get open, AND we still have a CB who can play in the NFL.  Don't trade Dareus, he's a sunk cost and trading him leaves a hole at DT you'll need to fill with an overpriced FA anyway who won't have All-Pro potential.  Boom.  Starting DT to eat up blockers at the very least.

 

There you go.  Win now and in the future.  Easy as pie.

 

 

Great post. These people don't realize the dead cap space was their own doing. And while creating dead cap, they also created holes. They're paying a guy not to work here, and a guy to work here at multiple spots.

 

It's not smart, it doesn't seem like a plan. I love when these people say they look like they have a plan.

 

Gutting your roster, then deciding let's trade for a wr after doing that. Then drafting a QB after you traded a good tackle on an already questionable line at that point. Giving him no receivers.

 

I'd rather give them the benefit of the doubt that they had no plan. Because if this is their plan, it reflects worse upon them. 

Edited October 9, 2018 by Ol Dirty B

[Warcodered]

4 minutes ago, BringBackOrton said:

So instead we are supposed to pretend that McD was physically unable from writing Watson or Mahomes on that card?

 

So instead we are supposed to pretend that trading Dareus for a sixth round pick, accelerating his cap hit and then doubling down by signing Star to a long term deal to do exactly what Dareus was doing was physically necessary?

 

You want my rebuild strategy? Okay.

 

Don't trade Darby.  Take Watkins fifth year option.  Boom.  Starting NFL caliber CB and WR.  Draft a rookie QB.  Look at that, he has a WR who can get open, AND we still have a CB who can play in the NFL.  Don't trade Dareus, he's a sunk cost and trading him leaves a hole at DT you'll need to fill with an overpriced FA anyway who won't have All-Pro potential.  Boom.  Starting DT to eat up blockers at the very least.

 

There you go.  Win now and in the future.  Easy as pie.

 

So your rebuild plan can be summed up as keep things the same add a QB? That is the GM's job who at the time was the guy that would be fired immediately following the draft. Also with the power of hindsight it seems obvious but when your a HC/GM combo taking over a team when you draft a QB with your #1 pick your fate is often tied to that pick. So it's hard for me to imagine that they wanted to pick a QB from a draft where they weren't even working for the organization in time to see them play live.

[BringBackOrton]

5 minutes ago, Ol Dirty B said:

 

Flipping a switch at half time of a game you were getting blown out in just screams reason and perspective.

 

Great post. These people don't realize the dead cap space was their own doing. And while creating dead cap, they also created holes. They're paying a guy not to work here, and a guy to work here at multiple spots.

 

It's not smart, it doesn't seem like a plan. I love when these people say they look like they have a plan.

 

Gutting your roster, then deciding let's trade for a wr after doing that. Then drafting a QB after you traded a good tackle on an already questionable line at that point. Giving him no receivers.

 

I'd rather give them the benefit of the doubt that they had no plan. Because if this is their plan, it reflects worse upon them. 

That's where I disagree.  They ABSOLUTELY have a plan.  But if you're going to intentionally  dismantle a roster, the onus is on them to prove they have a better alternate.  You don't get to trade everyone away then argue it's not fair to judge you for your ****ty roster.

1 minute ago, Warcodered said:

So your rebuild plan can be summed up as keep things the same add a QB? That is the GM's job who at the time was the guy that would be fired immediately following the draft. Also with the power of hindsight it seems obvious but when your a HC/GM combo taking over a team when you draft a QB with your #1 pick your fate is often tied to that pick. So it's hard for me to imagine that they wanted to pick a QB from a draft where they weren't even working for the organization in time to see them play live.

Yep.  The Bills had a ton of talent without a QB.  The new regime traded away all their talent, then drafted a QB in a ****ty position then said "Hey!  We don't have any talent it's not our fault!"

 

bull ****.  

 

With the power of hindsight?!?!  I SCREAMED for Watson the entire predraft process.  McD was hired in January.  He had 4 MONTHS to figure who he wanted in the first round in 2017.  I'm a guy with a keyboard, he's an NFL coach.   He had time to scout Poyer and Hyde in that time. The argument that he couldn't evaluate a QB in 4 months is really bad when you trusted him to evaluate a QB correctly the year after.   Talk about asking for failure.

[Ol Dirty B]

Just now, BringBackOrton said:

That's where I disagree.  They ABSOLUTELY have a plan.  But if you're going to intentionally  dismantle a roster, the onus is on them to prove they have a better alternate.  You don't get to trade everyone away then argue it's not fair to judge you for your ****ty roster.

 

Fair enough, but I don't see a plan and if this is the plan. I don't think it's being executed on the offensive side of the roster well.

 

They showed every intent to sit Allen. Which I'm fine with. I'm fine with playing him. I don't think their is a proven way of developing a QB.

 

I do have a problem with the line looking like it does and not having Cordy. I have a problem with what they trot out at WR. Maybe we agree in that I'm very skeptical of them.

 

I think they have a plan, it's getting to that second guaranteed contract. The way they have handled the Oline, QB, and WR position is completely mind boggling. I can't even say it's just that they got unlucky and missed. They didn't appear to care about the oline or the wr's at all. 

 

Every Bills fan has been bitching about the wr's for a year now, and they've done nothing.

 

That's really what has me concerned. I think SEC schools have better athletes at the position. We don't even have athletes. 

[Thurman#1]

31 minutes ago, BringBackOrton said:

No.  Deshaun Watson and Patrick Mahomes are 1000000000% better QBs than Josh Allen right now.  That's pure objective fact.

They threw out the baby with the bathwater.  They have to prove their baby is better. When we have 1 million posts on how the offense sucks, how this team has no talent, how this is the growing pains, that's completely on McBeane's shoulders.  They created this roster.  They accelerated dead cap by moving players they didn't have to.  They traded a 3rd round pick for KB.  They let go or released or traded players.

 

 

No, it's not on Beane's shoulders. What's on Beane's shoulders is what happened after he became GM. Many or most of the changes you're talking about happened before he got here.

 

And no, stupid posts are absolutely NOT his fault. They are the fault of posters who don't get it. What don't they get? That we're a year and 5 weeks into a rebuild which will not be able to be judged till 3 - 5 years in. People who try to judge now are being clueless. And no, that's not Beane's fault in any way.

 

As for the accelerated cap, yup, they're the ones who accelerated it. Precisely because they'd been told to completely clean up the cap mess by the owners. Fans love to ignore that, but GMs who enjoy their jobs can't ignore what they're told by the Pegulas of the world. They accelerated the cap hits because they'd been told to clear up the cap by the end of this year. Not before. By the end of this year. All those accelerated cap hits hurt this year but will be totally off the books by the owners deadline. Again, fans who want to make final judgments now are simply part of their own little process, in this case the process of "not getting it." And no, that's not Beane's fault.

[BringBackOrton]

2 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

No, it's not on Beane's shoulders. What's on Beane's shoulders is what happened after he became GM. Many or most of the changes you're talking about happened before he got here.

So McD gets no credit for White, Dawkins, Milano, Hyde or Poyer?  Got it.

 

2 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

As for the accelerated cap, yup, they're the ones who accelerated it. Precisely because they'd been told to completely clean up the cap mess by the owners. Fans love to ignore that, but GMs who enjoy their jobs can't ignore what they're told by the Pegulas of the world. They accelerated the cap hits because they'd been told to clear up the cap by the end of this year. Not before. By the end of this year. All those accelerated cap hits hurt this year but will be totally off the books by the owners deadline. Again, fans who want to make final judgments now are simply part of their own little process, in this case the process of "not getting it." And no, that's not Beane's fault.

CITATION NEEDED.

 

[Warcodered]

6 minutes ago, BringBackOrton said:

That's where I disagree.  They ABSOLUTELY have a plan.  But if you're going to intentionally  dismantle a roster, the onus is on them to prove they have a better alternate.  You don't get to trade everyone away then argue it's not fair to judge you for your ****ty roster.

Yep.  The Bills had a ton of talent without a QB.  The new regime traded away all their talent, then drafted a QB in a ****ty position then said "Hey!  We don't have any talent it's not our fault!"

 

bull ****.  

 

With the power of hindsight?!?!  I SCREAMED for Watson the entire predraft process.  McD was hired in January.  He had 4 MONTHS to figure who he wanted in the first round in 2017.  I'm a guy with a keyboard, he's an NFL coach.   He had time to scout Poyer and Hyde in that time. The argument that he couldn't evaluate a QB in 4 months is really bad when you trusted him to evaluate a QB correctly the year after.   Talk about asking for failure.

They can't say it's unfair to judge their plan when they're still mostly in the tear down stage?(They haven't though at most they've said it's a young team)

 

Hindsight is that they seem to be legitimate NFL QB's which I'm a little iffy with saying in year two. Reality is when you draft a QB it's a bit of a crapshoot and you want to know as much as possible before they make that decision. Let's not forget that McDermott probably had a full plate taking over coaching a team without adding scouting a QB. How is saying I trust him to draft a QB better with a year and 4 months than just 4 months bad that just sounds like basic logic. I mean there was an article talking about the work they did scouting Allen they examined everyone of his throws.

5 minutes ago, BringBackOrton said:

So McD gets no credit for White, Dawkins, Milano, Hyde or Poyer?  Got it.

 

CITATION NEEDED.

 

Yeah he should get less credit with that draft though I will say as a Defensive coordinator for another team before he was hired he was probably decently familiar with upcoming players on that side of the ball.

[Big Turk]

Nobody forgot.  The D is playing very well. The O is putrid for the most part.  This is not sustainable, but unfortunately, the D looks like it could be good enough to give us 4 or 5 more wins, which would be the biggest disaster of all, leaving us in no-mans land drafting 9th-13th instead of top 5.  

[MJS]

6 hours ago, TheTruthHurts said:

Defense definitely coming together. Seems the Davis retirement lit a fire. 

 

The Davis retirement was a non factor.

[Ol Dirty B]

20 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

No, it's not on Beane's shoulders. What's on Beane's shoulders is what happened after he became GM. Many or most of the changes you're talking about happened before he got here.

 

And no, stupid posts are absolutely NOT his fault. They are the fault of posters who don't get it. What don't they get? That we're a year and 5 weeks into a rebuild which will not be able to be judged till 3 - 5 years in. People who try to judge now are being clueless. And no, that's not Beane's fault in any way.

 

As for the accelerated cap, yup, they're the ones who accelerated it. Precisely because they'd been told to completely clean up the cap mess by the owners. Fans love to ignore that, but GMs who enjoy their jobs can't ignore what they're told by the Pegulas of the world. They accelerated the cap hits because they'd been told to clear up the cap by the end of this year. Not before. By the end of this year. All those accelerated cap hits hurt this year but will be totally off the books by the owners deadline. Again, fans who want to make final judgments now are simply part of their own little process, in this case the process of "not getting it." And no, that's not Beane's fault.

 

The Darius, Watkins, KB trades all happened with Beane....

 

Can you cite anything about the Pegulas telling them to manage the cap this way?

 

I think you just made a bunch of stuff up or put things in different time frames to make it fit what is convenient for you.

Edited October 9, 2018 by Ol Dirty B

[Thurman#1]

13 minutes ago, BringBackOrton said:

That's where I disagree.  They ABSOLUTELY have a plan.  But if you're going to intentionally  dismantle a roster, the onus is on them to prove they have a better alternate.  You don't get to trade everyone away then argue it's not fair to judge you for your ****ty roster.

Yep.  The Bills had a ton of talent without a QB.  The new regime traded away all their talent, then drafted a QB in a ****ty position then said "Hey!  We don't have any talent it's not our fault!"

 

bull ****.  

 

With the power of hindsight?!?!  I SCREAMED for Watson the entire predraft process.  McD was hired in January.  He had 4 MONTHS to figure who he wanted in the first round in 2017.  I'm a guy with a keyboard, he's an NFL coach.   He had time to scout Poyer and Hyde in that time. The argument that he couldn't evaluate a QB in 4 months is really bad when you trusted him to evaluate a QB correctly the year after.   Talk about asking for failure.

 

 

Oh, yeah, they had a ton of talent.  Yeah, I remember those days, before Beane and McDermott came in, when this team was like a playoff juggernaut.

 

Oh, for the good old days of 2016 when your three top receivers were frightening defenses all over the league by throwing up Madden-like stat years of production like 430 yards (Watkins), 613 yards (Woods) and 431 yards (Goodwin). Oh, and when you remember we had Percy Harvin and his hamstring on top of all those riches ... Yeah, we roamed the earth like titans back then. And all three guys have maintained their awesome levels of production on other teams as well.

 

Oh, for the days when we had John Miller and Jordan Mills on the right side of the OL. Oh, wait. 

 

Yup, and remember that awesome defense? Wow, no telling how good we'd be if only we had starters like them ... Adolphus Washington, Preston Brown, Zach Brown, Corey Graham with Jerel Worthy and Corbin Bryant picking up DL snaps and a gimpy Aaron Williams being spelled by Ihedigbo.

 

Dude, that team was mediocre even before you get around to mentioning Tyrod Taylor, and that mediocre team was crammed up against the salary cap like a team at the end of a Super Bowl window. That's what ended up causing them to let go some pretty good players, such as Gilmore. Throw in the fact that they wanted to keep Eric Wood and Incognito but couldn't and it's ridiculous to think that team was a few  pieces away.

[Thurman#1]

5 minutes ago, Ol Dirty B said:

 

The Darius, Watkins, KB trades all happened with Beane....

 

I think you just made a bunch of stuff up or put things in different time frames to make it fit what is convenient for you.

 

 

Right, those all happened with Beane. So they're on his head. But it's you who keeps screaming on about Beane and at the same time whining endlessly about Mahomes and Watson. 

 

You're the one who is screwing up the time frames here. It's real real simple. Beane is responsible for the moves after he joined us. But not for the ones before.

[Ol Dirty B]

5 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Right, those all happened with Beane. So they're on his head. But it's you who keeps screaming on about Beane and at the same time whining endlessly about Mahomes and Watson. 

 

You're the one who is screwing up the time frames here. It's real real simple. Beane is responsible for the moves after he joined us. But not for the ones before.

 

Eh... I've never said anything about Mahomes or Watson regarding Beane.

 

Is that your last grasp at making sense? Really? That was a weak post. I don't even really B word about them passing on those two because I didnt think they'd be good.

 

Some quality crap posting there. 

 

I'd love for you to quote me since you specifically said "you". So you're clearly talking about me. I did say Watson looks to be the better QB over Allen at this point, but I've never said they should have drafted either of the two.

 

With the dysfunction of the organization in that draft, with a lame duck GM. I knew they wouldn't take one. 

Edited October 9, 2018 by Ol Dirty B

[The Process]

10 hours ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

SD? South Dakota? Sudden Death? Stupid Decision?  Come on what the hell is SD!?!  

South Dakota Chargers..... love it!!!! Or maybe combine SD and ND like Carolina....because there are not enough fans in one state. The DAKOTA CHARGERS!

[Thurman#1]

5 hours ago, Ol Dirty B said:

 

Eh... I've never said anything about Mahomes or Watson regarding Beane.

 

Is that your last grasp at making sense? Really? That was a weak post. I don't even really B word about them passing on those two because I didnt think they'd be good.

 

Some quality crap posting there. 

 

I'd love for you to quote me since you specifically said "you". So you're clearly talking about me. I did say Watson looks to be the better QB over Allen at this point, but I've never said they should have drafted either of the two.

 

With the dysfunction of the organization in that draft, with a lame duck GM. I knew they wouldn't take one. 

 

 

Oh, I answered that post because I thought it was Orton. If I'd realized it was you, I wouldn't have bothered answering.

 

And you're right, your post was indeed some quality crap.

[Thurman#1]

7 hours ago, BringBackOrton said:

So McD gets no credit for White, Dawkins, Milano, Hyde or Poyer?  Got it.

 

  

 

Do you not get the words "before" and "after"? Do you get confused between Beane and McDermott? Hint: Beane is the one with hair. For what is now the third time, Beane gets credit for what happened after Beane was here. Not before. This ain't long division. Don't know why you're having trouble with it.

 

What you say here is simply butt-stupid and besides has not earthly connection to what I said.

 

Beane wasn't there. He gets no credit. McD was there and by all accounts was in charge. He gets the responsibility, and right now that looks like credit.

 

 

7 hours ago, BringBackOrton said:

 

CITATION NEEDED.

 

 

What? That Beane promised the Pegulas he'd clean it up by the end of this year? 

 

That's been reported several times. A super-quick google search produces this:

 

 

 

"They fixed the salary cap by taking the dead money medicine in 2018, and are set up to make some moves in the offseason with a ton of cap space. They've also re-tooled much of the staff around the building for a less leaky, and a much more communal team.

"Everything that Sean McDermott and Brandon Beane have promised owners Terry and Kim Pegula, they've made it happen." 

- Joe Buscaglia

https://www.wkbw.com/sports/bills/at-long-last-the-buffalo-bills-rebuild-is-here

 

and this

 

 

 

 

and this

 

 

"Buffalo Bills general manager Brandon Beane told Kim and Terry Pegula that it would take a couple of years to reshape the roster and salary cap to the way it should be when he was hired to run the personnel department. Look ahead to the 2019 salary cap space available and you can see the fruits of those labors.

 

"The Bills have shed a few massive contracts over the last two seasons, in many cases gaining assets in the process. But a lot of the corresponding cap hits have come in 2017 and 2018. The dead money on the deals - the remaining signing bonus money that hadn’t yet been accounted for in the salary cap structure - is all accelerated when the player is released or retires. In 2018, that number is almost 47 million dollars. It’s $20 million more than the next team on the list!

"But in fitting with the vision for the team, with Josh Allen in place this year to learn the ropes, Buffalo will hit the ground with a ton of cap space in 2019 to surround their young quarterback with established talent. That dead cap money will all be gone.

"With the yoke of dead money off the cap, Buffalo has a whopping $76 million in salary cap space for 2019, second-most in the league."

https://www.buffalorumblings.com/2018/7/3/17530342/buffalo-bills-2019-salary-cap-space-is-massive-marcell-dareus-eric-wood-tyrod-taylor

 

 

 

Took me roughly five minutes even though I knew I didn't remember which press conferences I'd heard it in. Was it really too difficult for you?

Edited October 9, 2018 by Thurman#1

[H2o]

Yes we are 2-1 since the Chargers game, but is there video of McDermott walking on water? Are there accounts of him turning water into beer for the people? Has he gotten his clapping under control? All these things are critical. 

[Thurman#1]

24 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

The salary cap issue is way overblown on here.

 

They were tight on the salary cap after the 2016 season, but they would've been fine going forward even with picking up Watkins contract, and keeping Dareus and Glenn. They obviously wouldn't have had the ability to sign guys like Star and Murphy but Id take keeping Watkins, Dareus and Glenn over having guys Star and Murphy on the roster any day. 

 

You act as if those guys were a prime reason for the mediocrity. Coaching was the issue. Not talent.... and as has been said millions of times, those guys are all starting on Super Bowl contending teams now. 

 

 

It's not, Scott. Not overblown one tiny little bit.

 

They cut a number of contracts for cap reasons even under Whaley as the pressure mounted.

 

And yeah, they could have kept going while picking up a bunch of other contracts. All they'd have had to do was keep re-negotiating contracts and kicking the can down the road, mortgaging the future and getting closer and closer to another complete purge year like the one that came about as a result of John Butler's overspending. 

 

Watkins, Dareus and Glenn would together have cost a ton more than Star and Murphy. Making that exchange would have put them yet further behind the eight ball. Watkins alone, with his 254 yards and 1 touchdown would have cost pretty much the same as Lotulelei and Murphy together over the next three years ... 

 

$48 mill over the next three years for Sammy. $22.5 mill over three for Murphy and Lotulelei averages $10 mill a year so his three year cost will be around $30 mill.

 

And that's fine that those guys are starting on Super Bowl contending teams. First, none of those teams would NOT be Super Bowl contending teams without those players. Second and more to the point, those teams have different schemes, they have different coaches, different cultures and different salary cap situations. Know who else is on a Super Bowl contending team? Chris Hogan and Stephon Gilmore. Hell, Gillislee was there last year. Teams that use their cap intelligently can bring in guys who they think will help, as any look at the Patriots over the years will show.

 

And as of next year, the Bills will be one of those teams because they'll have dug their way out of Whaley's overspending.

Edited October 9, 2018 by Thurman#1

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

Was LF's playbook too extensive and McD said simplify it?  

 

 

 

[longtimebillsfan]

12 hours ago, BringBackOrton said:

McD was.

The Titans don't have a losing record.  They are the team with the winning record.

I realized my error.   My bad. 

[BringBackOrton]

6 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Oh, yeah, they had a ton of talent.  Yeah, I remember those days, before Beane and McDermott came in, when this team was like a playoff juggernaut.

 

Oh, for the good old days of 2016 when your three top receivers were frightening defenses all over the league by throwing up Madden-like stat years of production like 430 yards (Watkins), 613 yards (Woods) and 431 yards (Goodwin). Oh, and when you remember we had Percy Harvin and his hamstring on top of all those riches ... Yeah, we roamed the earth like titans back then. And all three guys have maintained their awesome levels of production on other teams as well.

 

Oh, for the days when we had John Miller and Jordan Mills on the right side of the OL. Oh, wait. 

 

Yup, and remember that awesome defense? Wow, no telling how good we'd be if only we had starters like them ... Adolphus Washington, Preston Brown, Zach Brown, Corey Graham with Jerel Worthy and Corbin Bryant picking up DL snaps and a gimpy Aaron Williams being spelled by Ihedigbo.

 

Dude, that team was mediocre even before you get around to mentioning Tyrod Taylor, and that mediocre team was crammed up against the salary cap like a team at the end of a Super Bowl window. That's what ended up causing them to let go some pretty good players, such as Gilmore. Throw in the fact that they wanted to keep Eric Wood and Incognito but couldn't and it's ridiculous to think that team was a few  pieces away.

I mean, when you’re mentioning the third string safeties instead of the starters, that’s admitting defeat. “That team sucked! Look at the player we signed week 3 due to injuries.”

 

Yikes dude. 

10 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

It's not, Scott. Not overblown one tiny little bit.

 

They cut a number of contracts for cap reasons even under Whaley as the pressure mounted.

 

And yeah, they could have kept going while picking up a bunch of other contracts. All they'd have had to do was keep re-negotiating contracts and kicking the can down the road, mortgaging the future and getting closer and closer to another complete purge year like the one that came about as a result of John Butler's overspending. 

 

Watkins, Dareus and Glenn would together have cost a ton more than Star and Murphy. Making that exchange would have put them yet further behind the eight ball.

 

And that's fine that those guys are starting on Super Bowl contending teams. First, none of those teams would NOT be Super Bowl contending teams without those players. Second and more to the point, those teams have different schemes, they have different coaches, different cultures and different salary cap situations. Know who else is on a Super Bowl contending team? Chris Hogan and Stephon Gilmore. Hell, Gillislee was there last year. Teams that use their cap intelligently can bring in guys who they think will help, as any look at the Patriots over the years will show.

 

And as of next year, the Bills will be one of those teams because they'll have dug their way out of Whaley's overspending.

How much did we save this year with KB over Watkins? 4M?

[Thurman#1]

11 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

What was our cap two years ago? How bout last year? 

 

 

 

Both ended up around $5 mill or less, if I remember correctly, but that's missing the point.

 

You're not necessarily in cap trouble when you end up close to the cap for a given year. You're in cap trouble when you're running low on funds for the next year while you're still in this year. And that's how the Bills have been for the last three or four years. And thank goodness Beane and McDermott held their nose closed and swallowed their bitter medicine this year. Some of that dead money this year could've been kicked down the road. They didn't do it, for exactly the reason that they want to clear out future cap as they told the Pegulas they would do.

 

Next year they'll be able to re-sign any players who play well enough to warrant it. They'll be able to bring in a bunch of the low- to medium-priced FAs who can fill holes at WR and OL and elsewhere with capable though not outstanding guys. And they'll be able to do that each year because with them in charge the Bills are finally treating the cap the way the Steelers, Pats, Packers, Ravens, Eagles (and, um, the Panthers) ... the best and most consistent teams ... treat it.

Edited October 9, 2018 by Thurman#1

[Thurman#1]

36 minutes ago, BringBackOrton said:

I mean, when you’re mentioning the third string safeties instead of the starters, that’s admitting defeat. “That team sucked! Look at the player we signed week 3 due to injuries.”

 

Yikes dude. 

How much did we save this year with KB over Watkins? 4M?

 

 

Hmm, how much will we save with KB over Watkins? You do the math, dude,

 

Sammy's under contract for $48 mill over 3 years. KB's under contract for this year only for about $8 mill. The short answer? Not $4M. A ton.

 

And the one admitting defeat is you. You couldn't even bring yourself to mention the players I listed, six or seven of whom were (lousy) starters. I mentioned Preston Brown, Zach Brown, Corey Graham, Miller, Mills, Goodwin (431 yards), Woods (613 yards) and Watkins (430 yards)  and Tyrod. No wonder you couldn't answer. Makes me a bit sick to my stomach to type that wave of mediocrity.

 

My work here is done, because you're not even giving serious replies anymore, just unsuccessfully trying to distract and save face.

Edited October 9, 2018 by Thurman#1

[SoCal Deek]

It’s really too bad these next two winnable games are on the road. I could see the Bills feeding off a home crowd against the Texans and Colts...but they’ll get no such break. This year’s schedule is a tough one for a team trying to figure itself out.

[BringBackOrton]

15 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Hmm, how much will we save with KB over Watkins? You do the math, dude,

 

Sammy's under contract for $48 mill over 3 years. KB's under contract for this year only for about $8 mill. The short answer? Not $4M. A ton.

 

And the one admitting defeat is you. You couldn't even bring yourself to mention the players I listed, six or seven of whom were (lousy) starters. I mentioned Preston Brown, Zach Brown, Corey Graham, Miller, Mills, Goodwin (431 yards), Woods (613 yards) and Watkins (430 yards)  and Tyrod. No wonder you couldn't answer. Makes me a bit sick to my stomach to type that wave of mediocrity.

 

My work here is done, because you're not even giving serious replies anymore, just unsuccessfully trying to distract and save face.

Watkins played like 8 games that year. Stop embarrassing yourself.

 

If we had picked up Sammy’s fifth year, it would have been $4M in difference from KB. Oh, and we would still have another 3rd rounder.

[nucci]

Regarding the wins...it doesn't matter who you beat or how....it's a win and it's a good thing...any of you that played competitive sports knows at the end of the game it's the final score that counts

[Dopey]

14 hours ago, BringBackOrton said:

Because you're dead wrong.  That's why it's so funny.

 

We had the assets to get the QB all along.  Our head coach passed on Watson AND Mahomes.

 

If we had re-signed Woods, we would have had Watson/Mahomes in 2017 passing to Watkins, Woods, Zay, with Richie, Wood, Glenn, Darby, Hyde, Poyer, Dareus, Hughes, Kyle, Dawkins, Milano.

 

Acting like this FO "got it right" trading everyone from the 2016 team away, just to get assets to try to replace them is hilarious. And acting like they needed to trade everybody to get a QB when they had already passed on two better ones to get a DB is even more funny. 

So, I guess you 2 don't agree.

[teef]

so...what i'm getting from this thread is that the bills are done building, and that the salary cap problems were a lie.  nice.

[billsfan1959]

12 minutes ago, teef said:

so...what i'm getting from this thread is that the bills are done building, and that the salary cap problems were a lie.  nice.

...and, apparently,  that you should never, ever lose your rage over past team decisions  you didn't agree with, or stop expressing that rage in every other post that you write...

Edited October 9, 2018 by billsfan1959

[teef]

7 minutes ago, billsfan1959 said:

...and, apparently,  that you should never, ever lose your rage over past team decisions  you didn't agree with, or stop expressing that rage in every other post that you write...

i am into this.

[Ol Dirty B]

3 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Oh, I answered that post because I thought it was Orton. If I'd realized it was you, I wouldn't have bothered answering.

 

And you're right, your post was indeed some quality crap.

 

Another awful post. You realize you're on two posts of saying nothing and attempting to insult people? 

 

[fridge]

16 hours ago, BringBackOrton said:

Because you're dead wrong.  That's why it's so funny.

 

We had the assets to get the QB all along.  Our head coach passed on Watson AND Mahomes.

 

If we had re-signed Woods, we would have had Watson/Mahomes in 2017 passing to Watkins, Woods, Zay, with Richie, Wood, Glenn, Darby, Hyde, Poyer, Dareus, Hughes, Kyle, Dawkins, Milano.

 

Acting like this FO "got it right" trading everyone from the 2016 team away, just to get assets to try to replace them is hilarious. And acting like they needed to trade everybody to get a QB when they had already passed on two better ones to get a DB is even more funny. 

 

Himdsight is a factor, but this is undeniably a solid point. It’s not like there weren’t plenty of us calling for Watson or Mahomes either.

[cba fan]

11 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

No, it's not on Beane's shoulders. What's on Beane's shoulders is what happened after he became GM. Many or most of the changes you're talking about happened before he got here.

 

And no, stupid posts are absolutely NOT his fault. They are the fault of posters who don't get it. What don't they get? That we're a year and 5 weeks into a rebuild which will not be able to be judged till 3 - 5 years in. People who try to judge now are being clueless. And no, that's not Beane's fault in any way.

 

As for the accelerated cap, yup, they're the ones who accelerated it. Precisely because they'd been told to completely clean up the cap mess by the owners. Fans love to ignore that, but GMs who enjoy their jobs can't ignore what they're told by the Pegulas of the world. They accelerated the cap hits because they'd been told to clear up the cap by the end of this year. Not before. By the end of this year. All those accelerated cap hits hurt this year but will be totally off the books by the owners deadline. Again, fans who want to make final judgments now are simply part of their own little process, in this case the process of "not getting it." And no, that's not Beane's fault.

you got it backwards.

 

Beane advised Pegula he was going to fix the cap problem and it would take a couple years to do it.

 

Pegula wanted Mahomes as his QB and for unknown reasons Whaley and McDermott would not draft him when they had the chance. A report says Whaley was fired for that reason. I don't believe that, as other reports had Whaley really liked D Watson, and very likely McDerma exerted his influence on Whaley to not take a QB until his friend Beane was hired.

11 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Oh, yeah, they had a ton of talent.  Yeah, I remember those days, before Beane and McDermott came in, when this team was like a playoff juggernaut.

 

Oh, for the good old days of 2016 when your three top receivers were frightening defenses all over the league by throwing up Madden-like stat years of production like 430 yards (Watkins), 613 yards (Woods) and 431 yards (Goodwin). Oh, and when you remember we had Percy Harvin and his hamstring on top of all those riches ... Yeah, we roamed the earth like titans back then. And all three guys have maintained their awesome levels of production on other teams as well.

 

Oh, for the days when we had John Miller and Jordan Mills on the right side of the OL. Oh, wait. 

 

Yup, and remember that awesome defense? Wow, no telling how good we'd be if only we had starters like them ... Adolphus Washington, Preston Brown, Zach Brown, Corey Graham with Jerel Worthy and Corbin Bryant picking up DL snaps and a gimpy Aaron Williams being spelled by Ihedigbo.

 

Dude, that team was mediocre even before you get around to mentioning Tyrod Taylor, and that mediocre team was crammed up against the salary cap like a team at the end of a Super Bowl window. That's what ended up causing them to let go some pretty good players, such as Gilmore. Throw in the fact that they wanted to keep Eric Wood and Incognito but couldn't and it's ridiculous to think that team was a few  pieces away.

That team you speak so negatively about had a 9-7 record under Marrone and was ONE very good QB and a year of better health from the rest, away from being a real Super Bowl contender.

Edited October 9, 2018 by cba fan

[Alphadawg7]

15 hours ago, BringBackOrton said:

No.  Deshaun Watson and Patrick Mahomes are 1000000000% better QBs than Josh Allen right now.  That's pure objective fact.

They threw out the baby with the bathwater.  They have to prove their baby is better. When we have 1 million posts on how the offense sucks, how this team has no talent, how this is the growing pains, that's completely on McBeane's shoulders.  They created this roster.  They accelerated dead cap by moving players they didn't have to.  They traded a 3rd round pick for KB.  They let go or released or traded players.

 

Stop saying "THEY"!

 

Seriously what is your major malfunction that keeps from you understanding the fact that NEITHER Mahomes or Watson has ANYTHING to do with Beane. He was not the GM of that draft.

 

Neither does Woods, Goodwin, etc.  You keep ranting about moves our front office has done and lump in Beane with those decisions.  Beane was here for ONE draft and in that ONE draft he went and got a QB.  And that was THIS year.  

 

Edited October 9, 2018 by Alphadawg7

[Warcodered]

3 hours ago, fridge said:

 

Himdsight is a factor, but this is undeniably a solid point. It’s not like there weren’t plenty of us calling for Watson or Mahomes either.

What there were a bunch of fans calling for the drafting of one of the top QB prospects for a team with a bad QB...how shocking.

 

I mean just looking at the last draft there were plenty of people rooting for several different QBs but you don't listen to the fans on that you do some serious scouting and pick who, with your actual football experience, you think is the best fit. I don't think he had enough time to be as confident as you want to be when making that choice in that draft.

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

9 hours ago, teef said:

so...what i'm getting from this thread is that the bills are done building, and that the salary cap problems were a lie.  nice.

Cake walk 

[BringBackOrton]

5 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Stop saying "THEY"!

 

Seriously what is your major malfunction that keeps from you understanding the fact that NEITHER Mahomes or Watson has ANYTHING to do with Beane. He was not the GM of that draft.

 

Neither does Woods, Goodwin, etc.  You keep ranting about moves our front office has done and lump in Beane with those decisions.  Beane was here for ONE draft and in that ONE draft he went and got a QB.  And that was THIS year.  

 

Dude, McD hired Beane.