Is Josh Allen just a taller Tyrod Taylor

[26CornerBlitz]

3 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

It was, but he framed it in terms that were a lot more far-reaching than required. Allen is going to have games this year where the Bills run a lot. It's not going to define his career, just the particular circumstances of this season and the offensive issues that necessitate it. Trying to make one game (or a bunch of them this year) out to be some sort of referendum on Allen by alluding to the Taylor years is sensational, not realistic journalism.

 

That's a stretch when I read the entire article. Too much sensitivity surrounding Josh Allen on TSW. 

[BullBuchanan]

As one of the biggest Allen detractors in the world, I think the kid is doing a nice job. He's managing the game which is something he never did in college as far as I saw. I like to believe he's learning what the NFL is like right now and not trying to make too many mistakes and one or two years from now he'll hopefully start getting more aggressive.

 

His flaws are still very much a concern to me for his long term success, but he isn't giving games away like I thought he might.

[Kelly the Dog]

I think you have to consider it a completely different way. That perhaps Tyrod Taylor is a shorter Josh Allen.

[Cripple Creek]

16 hours ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

?

 

all we heard this offseasin is sin is our passing game couldn’t get worse.  Well in a league where offense records are being set, we are barely over 100 yards passing!  

 

Wins are always nice but other Bills qb would be getting killed for this game.  This is Allen’s 3rd won in 2 years where he passed for under 100 yards.  Isn’t that why we got rid of Tyrod?  

Damn man, you once had what I thought were decent ideas w regard to the Bills.

 

What the hell happened?

 

A rookie making his fourth start is multi-year pro, multi-year starter Tyrod Tailor?

 

Shirley you can do better than this.

[GoBills808]

1 minute ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

 

That's a stretch when I read the entire article. Too much sensitivity surrounding Josh Allen on TSW. 

Well, it starts with these three PPs-

 

When the Buffalo Bills dealt Tyrod Taylor and later traded up to select Josh Allen with the No. 7 pick, their goal was to develop a passer who could raise the team to greater heights than Taylor was able to achieve with his arm.

 

Although the Bills (2-3) escaped with a much-needed, 13-12 win over the Tennessee Titans on Sunday, their path to victory with Allen followed the same sort of conservative approach that once protected Taylor's weaknesses from being exposed.

 

Four games into Allen's career as the Bills' starter, that strategy should come with at least some level of concern. Instead of expanding the offense as Allen grows into his role, the Bills retreated into the protective shell of a ground-and-pound game plan. In the few instances when Allen poked out his head to take a chance, the results were lacking.

 

For me, that's a stretch. First to allude to Allen's first 4 games looking like Taylor's tenure, because the circumstances are much different as to make the comparison invalid on its face. Second to suggest that there should be concern about reverting to a passing strategy that the organization had just moved on from, because again the personnel and their respective experience don't warrant such concern at this point. I'm not trying to be sensitive, just pointing out what imo are inconsistencies with his train of thought.

 

 

 

 

[sleeby]

14 minutes ago, papazoid said:

so far Josh has more rushing TD's (3) than passing (2).

 

his poor accuracy, even on short throws is worrisome. most of his long passes are overthrown.

 

he's not even close to Tyrod...yet !!…….last year TT ranked around 15th in both passer rating and total QBR

 

Josh isn't even in the Top 32 for either.....not good !!

Man, you are just toxic.  I was thinking this would be a week where your type were mostly silent.  Thanks for peeing in the danged cornflakes. 

 

[26CornerBlitz]

1 minute ago, GoBills808 said:

Well, it starts with these three PPs-

 

When the Buffalo Bills dealt Tyrod Taylor and later traded up to select Josh Allen with the No. 7 pick, their goal was to develop a passer who could raise the team to greater heights than Taylor was able to achieve with his arm.

 

Although the Bills (2-3) escaped with a much-needed, 13-12 win over the Tennessee Titans on Sunday, their path to victory with Allen followed the same sort of conservative approach that once protected Taylor's weaknesses from being exposed.

 

Four games into Allen's career as the Bills' starter, that strategy should come with at least some level of concern. Instead of expanding the offense as Allen grows into his role, the Bills retreated into the protective shell of a ground-and-pound game plan. In the few instances when Allen poked out his head to take a chance, the results were lacking.

 

For me, that's a stretch. First to allude to Allen's first 4 games looking like Taylor's tenure, because the circumstances are much different as to make the comparison invalid on its face. Second to suggest that there should be concern about reverting to a passing strategy that the organization had just moved on from, because again the personnel and their respective experience don't warrant such concern at this point. I'm not trying to be sensitive, just pointing out what imo are inconsistencies with his train of thought.

 

Too sensitive. Everyone knows what happened yesterday and why: "The Bills' method for making Allen better on Sunday was to keep the ball out of his hands, which is a fair strategy for dealing with a rookie quarterback. That was good enough for the victory over the Titans, as Buffalo, which entered the game allowing a staggering 21 sacks through four games, gave up only one on Sunday."

[GoBills808]

Just now, 26CornerBlitz said:

 

Too sensitive. Everyone knows what happened yesterday and why: "The Bills' method for making Allen better on Sunday was to keep the ball out of his hands, which is a fair strategy for dealing with a rookie quarterback. That was good enough for the victory over the Titans, as Buffalo, which entered the game allowing a staggering 21 sacks through four games, gave up only one on Sunday."

Yeh, we do, which is why there's no concern about a few games this season looking statistically like Taylor's tenure. 

[26CornerBlitz]

Just now, GoBills808 said:

Yeh, we do, which is why there's no concern about a few games this season looking statistically like Taylor's tenure. 

 

There is some concern because of how much development he needs in many critical areas that define long term QB success at the NFL level which is why the game plan was remedial.  

[GoBills808]

1 minute ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

 

There is some concern because of how much development he needs in many critical areas that define long term QB success at the NFL level which is why the game plan was remedial.  

No doubt, but not 'sure looked like a Tyrod Taylor offense out there!' type article concern, at least not yet for me...too many limiting factors on offense outside just Allen to make that comparison. 

 

I don't want to argue over a Rodak article ?...this is right in his wheelhouse wrt low hanging fruit as far as I'm concerned.

[26CornerBlitz]

Just now, GoBills808 said:

No doubt, but not 'sure looked like a Tyrod Taylor offense out there!' type article concern, at least not yet for me...too many limiting factors on offense outside just Allen to make that comparison. 

 

I don't want to argue over a Rodak article ?...this is right in his wheelhouse wrt low hanging fruit as far as I'm concerned.

 

Andy Benoit pointed out many of the same things in the piece he wrote today.  Let's be mad at him too. While we're at it get PO'ed at Wawrow who points at the Titans' game from 2015. 

 

 

[JohnC]

1 minute ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

 

There is some concern because of how much development he needs in many critical areas that define long term QB success at the NFL level which is why the game plan was remedial.  

No question that the game plan for Josh the rookie is going to be very simple. That shouldn't be surprising.  But even with a more experienced qb because of the caliber of the OL and especially the receiving corps the game plan is still going to be relatively simple because of their inadequacies. When your receivers on quick hitting pass plays are blanketed you know that your play book and passing game is going to be very abridged. 

[GoBills808]

Just now, 26CornerBlitz said:

 

Andy Benoit pointed out many of the same things in the piece he wrote today.  Let's be mad at him too. While we're at it get PO'ed at Wawrow who points at the Titans' game from 2015. 

 

 

I'm not mad, I'm saying this is the easy take, guaranteed to generate interest and the occasional argument like the one you and I are currently having. So I guess it worked in that respect.

[Kelly the Dog]

8 minutes ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

 

There is some concern because of how much development he needs in many critical areas that define long term QB success at the NFL level which is why the game plan was remedial.  

For those people who think he should be sitting and watching a year, I think it is truly invaluable experience to be out on the field with four minutes to go and lead a game winning 4+ minute drive. Regardless of how many passes he threw (and he did throw for two first downs). You don't learn anything about that situation on the bench IMO.

[26CornerBlitz]

Just now, GoBills808 said:

I'm not mad, I'm saying this is the easy take, guaranteed to generate interest and the occasional argument like the one you and I are currently having. So I guess it worked in that respect.

 

There's nothing to argue. It's what happened for good reason as the BIlls are trying to win games as I stated earlier.  

[GoBills808]

Allen has been up and down to start his career as expected. He's looked as uneven as a guy as raw as he is coming into the league should look. So that's normal to me. I'm certainly not expecting his career to look like Taylor's and that is of zero concern to me. Also of zero concern is whether we have a few (or even many) games with offensive output resembling Taylor's this season, for the aforementioned reasons. So Rodak's article doesn't speak to me. That is what I'm trying to convey.

 

 

[LSHMEAB]

What I notice is that people who wanted to go out of their way to bash Tyrod are going out of their way to defend Allen.

 

Taylor was not good enough AND Josh Allen may not be the answer. The two are not mutually exclusive.

Edited October 8, 2018 by LSHMEAB

[JohnC]

3 minutes ago, Kelly the Dog said:

For those people who think he should be sitting and watching a year, I think it is truly invaluable experience to be out on the field with four minutes to go and lead a game winning 4+ minute drive. Regardless of how many passes he threw (and he did throw for two first downs). You don't learn anything about that situation on the bench IMO.

Although his passing numbers are not sterling one area where there is a noticeable improvement is his pocket presence. The only way to get that feel for the pressure to to experience it. 

 

JA still has trouble with those short dump off passes and he can't consistently cleanly throw to the back or receiver in stride. But that is also another example where the only remedy is to play and gain experience. 

 

Because of his makeup where the stage isn't too big for him I'm excited about the future. I couldn't say that about the previous qbs. 

[GoBills808]

Just now, LSHMEAB said:

What I notice is that people who wanted to go out of their way to bash Tyrod are going out of their way to defend Allen.

 

Taylor was not good enough AND Josh Allen may not be the answer. The two are not mutually exclusive.

Does the fact that Taylor had 4 years under his belt when he came to the Bills, as opposed to Allen's 4 games, mean anything to you when you compare them statistically? 

[JohnC]

1 minute ago, LSHMEAB said:

What I notice is that people who wanted to go out of their way to bash Tyrod are going out of their way to defend Allen.

 

Taylor was not good enough AND Josh Allen may not be the answer. The two are not mutually exclusive.

There was little progression to the experienced qb's game who was in the league for more than a half dozen years. Although Allen is very raw I can see some progression to his game. With Taylor what you see is what you get. If you don't believe me just ask the Browns about him. 

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

16 hours ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

?

 

all we heard this offseasin is sin is our passing game couldn’t get worse.  Well in a league where offense records are being set, we are barely over 100 yards passing!  

 

Wins are always nice but other Bills qb would be getting killed for this game.  This is Allen’s 3rd won in 2 years where he passed for under 100 yards.  Isn’t that why we got rid of Tyrod?  

 

Tyrod isn’t that reckless with the ball?

[LSHMEAB]

Just now, GoBills808 said:

Does the fact that Taylor had 4 years under his belt when he came to the Bills, as opposed to Allen's 4 games, mean anything to you when you compare them statistically? 

You clearly didn't read my post. 

 

I stated that Josh Allen MAY not be the answer. What is controversial about that? Right now, he looks terrible. We can talk about all the reasons why he looks terrible, but he looks terrible. 

[GoBills808]

6 minutes ago, LSHMEAB said:

You clearly didn't read my post. 

 

I stated that Josh Allen MAY not be the answer. What is controversial about that? Right now, he looks terrible. We can talk about all the reasons why he looks terrible, but he looks terrible. 

I read it in its entirety. Your premise was a point about your perceived discrepancy between fans' tolerance of Allen's play vis a vis Taylor. The comparison you draw begets the question whether you understand the pointlessness in making such differentiations. 

 

As to 'terrible', again: contextualize. As compared to league averages, or among his rookie peers? By what metric? Establish a baseline. Otherwise it's just more hyperbole.

[sleeby]

25 minutes ago, LSHMEAB said:

 

Taylor was not good enough AND Josh Allen may not be the answer. The two are not mutually exclusive

Why are they not exclusive?  They are two different players.  Those two opinions are not conjoined in any way.

 

I've seen JA make passes in tight spaces this summer and fall which I don't think I ever saw from tyrod - and he's just out of the gate.  Not hating tyrod mind you. . .I never bashed him but did admit he would require a top 1 or 2 defense to ever win it all.

Edited October 8, 2018 by sleeby

[LSHMEAB]

3 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

I read it in its entirety. Your premise was a point about your perceived discrepancy between fans' tolerance of Allen's play vis a vis Taylor. The comparison you draw begets the question whether you understand the pointlessness in making such differentiations. 

 

As to 'terrible', again: contextualize. As compared to league averages, or among his rookie peers? By what metric? Establish a baseline. Otherwise it's just more hyperbole.

I like the argument you made in the first paragraph. It was a quality retort.

 

As far as contextualizing Josh Allen's performance, he's been terrible by any metric. Rookie metrics, vet metrics, Pee Wee metrics, sabermetrics. The guy has been bad. I don't know how you establish a baseline.

 

I'm glad we have a Head Coach who knows how to win close games because we're not gonna be blowing anyone out anytime soon.

[sleeby]

4 minutes ago, LSHMEAB said:

 

As far as contextualizing Josh Allen's performance, he's been terrible by any metric. Rookie metrics, vet metrics, Pee Wee metrics, sabermetrics. The guy has been bad. I don't know how you establish a baseline.

 

I'm glad we have a Head Coach who knows how to win close games because we're not gonna be blowing anyone out anytime soon.

Just why?  Why attack this kid?  Crab in a barrel. Who is our offense right now? 

 

Who are the studs?  The #1 and 2 RBs.  Who else?  What is this kid working with?  The only people who catch reliably are also the RBs.  If those many catchable balls had been caught then the stats would be very different.  So damned toxic.  

 

[GoBills808]

6 minutes ago, LSHMEAB said:

I like the argument you made in the first paragraph. It was a quality retort.

 

As far as contextualizing Josh Allen's performance, he's been terrible by any metric. Rookie metrics, vet metrics, Pee Wee metrics, sabermetrics. The guy has been bad. I don't know how you establish a baseline.

 

I'm glad we have a Head Coach who knows how to win close games because we're not gonna be blowing anyone out anytime soon.

Imo a good starting point would be to see how Allen stacks up against the other starting rookies. In terms of raw #s, it looks like this:

 

Allen- 53.3% completion, 6.1 YPA, 2TD/5INT (3 rush TDs)

 

Mayfield- 58.9% completion, 7.95 YPA, 3TD/3INT (0 rush TDs)

 

Rosen- 49.2% completion, 6.5 YPA, 2TD/1INT (0 rush TDs)

 

Darnold- 55.7% completion, 7.2 YPA, 7TD/6INT (0 rush TDs)

 

These are obviously open to interpretation as they don't take into account factors like SOS, offensive personnel, advanced metrics like ANY/A (or DYAR, DVOA etc), and the like. They also don't measure drops by receivers or other relevant team-related circumstances...given that I haven't watched every snap by the others but have seen enough to make what I'd call a relatively informed comparison, I think calling Allen 'terrible' thus far, when measured against his comparable peers, is too strong.

[Dablitzkrieg]

To the OP, no...Allen is basically Blake Bortles

[HappyDays]

I feel like this point should be obvious, but Allen is not considered a finished product right now. He was seen as the most raw of the top 4 QBs. He wasn't drafted for what he can do now, he was drafted for his long term potential. This is why the comparisons to Josh Rosen don't work. Rosen was drafted as essentially a finished product. He might already be at his ceiling. Cardinals fans should be much more concerned about his game yesterday than we should be about any game Allen has this year. This whole season is Allen's orientation to the NFL - he'll take his lumps, make some bad passes, get accustomed to NFL game speed, and hopefully come out at the end of the season with a better understanding of being a pro QB. Tyrod got worse every year he started. If Allen is still making the same mistakes a year from now we will have good reason to be concerned.

[26CornerBlitz]

 

 

[LSHMEAB]

1 hour ago, sleeby said:

Just why?  Why attack this kid?  Crab in a barrel. Who is our offense right now? 

 

Who are the studs?  The #1 and 2 RBs.  Who else?  What is this kid working with?  The only people who catch reliably are also the RBs.  If those many catchable balls had been caught then the stats would be very different.  So damned toxic.  

 

I'm frustrated bro.

 

We haven't had a quarterback in forever and I feel like we drafted a bust.

 

I'm not attacking Josh Allen personally because I dislike his mother or want him to get hit by a bus. Nothing I state on a message board is going to change the trajectory of the team. I've tried to bend the universal arc through sheer will with astonishingly poor results.

 

What really frustrates me is that I like McDermott and feel like if we had found our quarterback, this time WOULD be different.

 

I'd like to be wrong as much as you'd like to be right. 

[sleeby]

17 minutes ago, LSHMEAB said:

I'm frustrated bro.

 

We haven't had a quarterback in forever and I feel like we drafted a bust.

Negativity and bringing everyone down at this early stage is surely not going to make good though.  I think it matters when a ton of vocal critics and local sports writers attack a young QB.  There are those who claim he should be impervious to it and somehow not human but that's crap - he's a young guy with half of new York state holding the past 20 years on his shoulder - and he has no talent around him other than RBs and maybe Dawkins.  Many great QBs had rough rookie NFL years and were not run out of town for it - so to speak.

 

Next year will likely see a very new and very young bills offense; complete with its own, new problems.  What will JA be in 2021?  Nobody can even intelligently guess at this point.  He is good though at the very least.

 

How about that defense?  ?

Edited October 8, 2018 by sleeby

[Big Gun]

19 hours ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

?

 

all we heard this offseasin is sin is our passing game couldn’t get worse.  Well in a league where offense records are being set, we are barely over 100 yards passing!  

 

Wins are always nice but other Bills qb would be getting killed for this game.  This is Allen’s 3rd won in 2 years where he passed for under 100 yards.  Isn’t that why we got rid of Tyrod?  

No, not at all.

 

If he performs like this 7 years from now then this can be revisited. For now, no way.

[LSHMEAB]

2 minutes ago, sleeby said:

Negativity and bringing everyone down at this early stage is surely not going to make good though.  I think it matters when a ton of vocal critics and local sports writers attack a young QB.  There are those who claim he should be impervious to it and somehow not human but that's crap - he's a young guy with half of new York state holding the past 20 years on his shoulder - and he has no talent around him other than RBs and maybe Dawkins.  Many great QBs had rough rookie NFL years and were not run out of town for it - so to speak.

 

Next year will likely see a very new and very young bills offense; complete with its own, new problems.  What will JA be in 2021?  Nobody can even intelligently guess at this point.  He is good though at the very least.

 

How about that defense?  ?

I feel very comfortable with McDermott's defense.

 

The main thing I want to see from that side of the ball is pressure and takeaways. He seems to get that.

 

As far as Allen goes, lets say he doesn't improve and he's not the answer. How long is too long to stick with him and is there any chance McDermott gets another quarterback?

 

I fully expect Allen to bust, but I'd like to see McDermott remain as HC. That seems improbable. 

 

 

[DrDawkinstein]

29 minutes ago, LSHMEAB said:

I'm frustrated bro.

 

We haven't had a quarterback in forever and I feel like we drafted a bust.

 

I'm not attacking Josh Allen personally because I dislike his mother or want him to get hit by a bus. Nothing I state on a message board is going to change the trajectory of the team. I've tried to bend the universal arc through sheer will with astonishingly poor results.

 

What really frustrates me is that I like McDermott and feel like if we had found our quarterback, this time WOULD be different.

 

I'd like to be wrong as much as you'd like to be right. 

 

We've all been along for the same frustrating ride. Take a breath, and realize that, first and foremost, we finally got the playoff monkey off our back, so we can take some time to reset. We can take a break from being the "hardcore" Bills fans that live and die by the team and give them and ourselves some breathing room this season, and let go of some frustrations. We were never going 11-5 (or even 9-7) this year, but we dont have the drought to worry about either. Which is a huge relief.

 

Also, for the first time in... well, franchise history, we have a FO that made drafting a top prospect QB their #1 priority. And not only did they make it a priority, they actually did it!

 

But rookies take time, and even more so, we got ourselves a project prospect. Projects take more than 3 games. Heck, a lot of "sure thing" blue chip prospects took longer than 3 games, or even 16 games.

 

Enjoy the ride this season for what it is: no-pressure football. Sit back and watch the kid develop, little by little, baby steps.

 

We can start putting the pressure back on the team, and ourselves, once he's had some time under his belt and we have him surrounded by real weapons and a real OL.

 

[Alphadawg7]

20 hours ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

?

 

all we heard this offseasin is sin is our passing game couldn’t get worse.  Well in a league where offense records are being set, we are barely over 100 yards passing!  

 

Wins are always nice but other Bills qb would be getting killed for this game.  This is Allen’s 3rd won in 2 years where he passed for under 100 yards.  Isn’t that why we got rid of Tyrod?  

 

This has to be an attempt at trolling.  No way this can be a real thread right now.  You are free to revisit this in 2 years after Allen has a couple seasons under his belt and at least a couple real NFL starters on offense at WR and OL.  

[Gugny]

Josh Allen is a rookie who is playing like a rookie.

Tyrod Taylor was in his 5th, 6th and 7th years in the NFL whilst in Buffalo .... and played like a rookie.

[BuffaloHokie13]

I compiled the stats for recent rookie year performances if anyone is interested. Obviously this year's class is a work in progress and subject to change.

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

On 10/8/2018 at 10:12 AM, no name said:

also to the kids credit regardless of how little the offense did yesterday it was allen who scored the only touchdown and then went on to lead the team down the field to be in range for haus money to be able to kick the winning field goal.

 

his first 4th qtr comeback for the win!

 

 

a "shorter" TT would never have reached the GL on that dive! 

23 hours ago, Doc said:

 

It's called being a rookie and having lousy receivers,  RoadHack.

fixed it for you Doc

2 hours ago, Gugny said:

Josh Allen is a rookie who is playing like a rookie.

Tyrod Taylor was in his 5th, 6th and 7th years in the NFL whilst in Buffalo .... and played like a rookie sandlot QB.

fixed it for you Gug

[Klaista2k]

On 10/8/2018 at 4:24 PM, HappyDays said:

I feel like this point should be obvious, but Allen is not considered a finished product right now. He was seen as the most raw of the top 4 QBs. He wasn't drafted for what he can do now, he was drafted for his long term potential. This is why the comparisons to Josh Rosen don't work. Rosen was drafted as essentially a finished product. He might already be at his ceiling. Cardinals fans should be much more concerned about his game yesterday than we should be about any game Allen has this year. This whole season is Allen's orientation to the NFL - he'll take his lumps, make some bad passes, get accustomed to NFL game speed, and hopefully come out at the end of the season with a better understanding of being a pro QB. Tyrod got worse every year he started. If Allen is still making the same mistakes a year from now we will have good reason to be concerned.

How often do these "project quarterbacks" ever work out?