Brandon Bean failed to provide Josh Allen a mentor

[GrizzReaper]

28 minutes ago, BillsFan17 said:

 

 

 

Anyone else remember this? 

 

There is no correlation between success of a QB and having a veteran behind them. This is the NFL not the scouts. I'm sure to a degree it helps, but there are 52 other MEN on the team that can help bring a rookie QB along.

 

 

I know that there are plenty of QBs who did benefit from having a vet or a good QB coach or HC too.  That goes both ways. So you can say it isn't always necessary but I still think it's a tool that can and should be used if available. 

 

Especially if you have a putrid O line and Sub par WRs... And the only other guys you have to help steer this RAW talent is a guy who last coached QBs in the 80s for a college team and Nathan Peterman who for all intents and purposes is a rookie himself and a bad one at that...

Edited September 21, 2018 by GrizzReaper

[reddogblitz]

23 minutes ago, Dr.Sack said:

Troy Aikman had no one pitching in front of him in 1989. If the kid is tough he will stick around and weather the adversity and learn. It’s sink or swim for Josh Allen. 

 

Troy Aikmen was also the number 1 pick in the draft and the Heisman Trophy winner and was really good in college.  None of this is true of Josh.

 

It's like last night when Troy said "Jimmie Johnson said you can play it safe and be good or gamble and be great."  LOL  Picking Troy was like the most safe pick ever.

[Nihilarian]

Just now, 26CornerBlitz said:

 

They had Kevin Kolb as the veteran ahead of him until the unfortunate rubber mat and concussion incidents. 

The problem is that you need that veteran QB during the season to go over plays and why they worked or didn't work. What the QB sees in pre snap reads as those QBs usually consult after every series to discuss what happened.

 

Yes, they can also look at their tablets and talk it over with the OC after each series it's just not the same as having another experienced QB to talk things over with.

 

That said the OP stated that Beane had said that AJ McCarron was not the guy we thought he was as could mean that he wasn't helpful at all to other QBs in preseason. Still, this is no excuse as to not bring in a vet QB to help out that rookie. Just make certain to that vet QB that the primary reason he is being brought in is to be the backup and help the rookie.

[HappyDays]

11 minutes ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

 

That's not what younger players say.

 

I don't care about meaningless football speak from players or coaches talking to the media.

[26CornerBlitz]

Just now, HappyDays said:

 

I don't care about meaningless football speak from players or coaches talking to the media.

 

Meaningless to you maybe but there are many who give personal accounts of how their careers were helped by older players in a variety of different ways both on and off the field.  This isn't something unique to professional sports. 

[HappyDays]

4 minutes ago, GrizzReaper said:

I know that there are plenty of QBs who did benefit from having g a vet or a good QB coach or HC too. 

 

Some QBs turn out good and most turn out bad. There is no similar thread that binds the good ones together. They've succeeded under wildly different circumstances. Personally I think a QB will end up good or bad regardless of the situation he comes into. You get people like Prescott who looked good in a great situation but now looks like crap, and you get people like Peyton Manning who came onto a bad team and looked good later on. It makes no difference.

 

And sure in a vacuum I'd rather have Tyrod or McCarron here over Peterman. But I wouldn't give up a draft pick for it.

[GrizzReaper]

5 minutes ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

 

Meaningless to you maybe but there are many who give personal accounts of how their careers were helped by older players in a variety of different ways both on and off the field.  This isn't something unique to professional sports. 

 

Exactly like just life in general... And Joe schmoe can't say they didn't learn certain things faster or better because they were able to go to their elders for guidance. This is just basic human nature man. We learn from those people who've been through it and struggled learning stuff before us. Then also we learn from our own mistakes and failures...

 

So yes a QB can do the baptism by fire and perservere and learn on their own. I concede that... However having someone else to learn from doesn't hurt in any way and honestly I think the positives outweigh the negatives if any...

 

Just to reel this back in the OP... My thing is we need to keep an eye on this because Beane set the table here... So we are all wondering how this "process" is going if the right moves are being made. To me not having someone here for Allen to help mentor is a bad look. It seems like it's counter intuitive to developing this guy as fast as possible. Then you get into the O line is just bad... The WRs are bad... So I'm just wondering WTH Beane is doing here. It doesn't make sense to me at this point.

Edited September 21, 2018 by GrizzReaper

[reddogblitz]

2 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

I don't care about meaningless football speak from players or coaches talking to the media.

 

Saying that a young inexperienced person cannot benefit from the wisdom of someone who's done it a while and made a lot of mistakes sounds counter intuitive to me.  I don't care what you're doing. 

[Cripple Creek]

On 9/17/2018 at 1:58 PM, GrizzReaper said:

I read an article uhhh let me put the link https://billswire.usatoday.com/2018/09/17/buffalo-bills-josh-allen-brandon-beane/

 

Ok so I think us Bills fans really need to pay attention to how this plays out. This article makes a valid point imo. Beane may have severely handicapped Josh Allen this season by not having some sort of vet on the roster to help mentor and guide him.

 

I mentioned in the gameday thread that I thought Allen did ok but he needs work and reps diagnosing defenses, where pressure is coming, setting up his protection. So I'm wondering how important having a wily vet in the QB room may be to his ability to learn that stuff...

 

Who is in the room helping him watch film? I feel like Beane needs to pull some sort of veteran into the building to help this guy learn to be a pro. As it stands I don't see who there is on the Bills staff or roster that can help this guy learn the job quicker.

 

So I think we need to be mindful of that. The fact that Beane put us in this particular position. I'm not going to call for his head or anything just yet but I think we need to be aware of it. If it goes wrong... That's a pretty big blunder imo.

My first “real” boss told me something many, many years ago when I was promoted to another location. I asked him what he could tell me about my new boss. He thought for a bit and then said “in your career you’ll find that sometimes people show you how to not do things right.” I think we can apply this principle to Allen and the Bills. Josh should watch P-man and learn from him how to not do things. Silver lining?

[GrizzReaper]

3 minutes ago, Cripple Creek said:

My first “real” boss told me something many, many years ago when I was promoted to another location. I asked him what he could tell me about my new boss. He thought for a bit and then said “in your career you’ll find that sometimes people show you how to not do things right.” I think we can apply this principle to Allen and the Bills. Josh should watch P-man and learn from him how to not do things. Silver lining?

 

Yeah haha that works too in a way. My great aunt told me "you don't always have to make the mistakes and learn from them you can let other people do it and watch and learn from them." So yeah that's the silver lining haha definitely don't do whatever my man Nasty Nate has been doing lol

[LSHMEAB]

25 minutes ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

 

That's not what younger players say.

 

Rookie QB's are naturally going to respect vets at the position who have been there and done that. Having that kind of "mentor" probably makes life seem easier for a kid.

 

What I don't believe is that said mentor is gonna have any impact on their career. Once the real bullets start flying, the rookie is going to sink or swim based on their own ability.

 

You can only run to the sideline so many times asking Josh McCown what you did wrong before it's up to YOU to correct those mistakes.

[Nihilarian]

18 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

Some QBs turn out good and most turn out bad. There is no similar thread that binds the good ones together. They've succeeded under wildly different circumstances. Personally I think a QB will end up good or bad regardless of the situation he comes into. You get people like Prescott who looked good in a great situation but now looks like crap, and you get people like Peyton Manning who came onto a bad team and looked good later on. It makes no difference.

 

And sure in a vacuum I'd rather have Tyrod or McCarron here over Peterman. But I wouldn't give up a draft pick for it.

When you look over the history of the NFL teams it stands to reason that most teams follow the same procedure in having an NFL experienced QB coach, an experienced NFL OC and an experienced NFL veteran QB as all contribute to teaching this rookie QB the NFL ropes. 

 

Now, his OC and QB coach are his bosses. I would think that a player might be able to relate to another player and what they have to say vs getting hammered or yelled at by a boss when you make a mistake. Some players say that they respond better to being yelled at "coached hard", and others don't respond well to that treatment. 

 

I've trained many people in my job, to do my job and the bosses didn't train them, I did. Someone who has actually done that particular job is someone who knows exactly what you need to succeed in doing that job. 

 

When Kyle Orton came to the Buffalo Bills EJ stated he learned more from watching him prepare for a game then he had ever learned from his coaches.  

Edited September 21, 2018 by Nihilarian

[K-9]

Terry Pegula failed to provide Brandon Beane a mentor. 

 

Just thought id start at the top and work down.

[BillsMafia13]

1 hour ago, HappyDays said:

 

McCown's presence has been so valuable to Darnold that he's regressed in every game. I would trade any backup QB for any pick at all unless I had a team ready to compete for the Super Bowl.

I dont think you can really quantify a vets qbs value, especially not after 2 games. And those things are not tied together so thats moot.  An extra pair of eyes, tips on how defenses play, any little bit of information would be huge for a qb as raw as allen.  He didnt have the Manning camps like Rosen and Darnold did and its pretty evident out offensive coaching staff is blind deaf and dumb.

[K-9]

So when is it ok to question the mentor? I mean Darnold really struggled last night. Where was McCown? I put a lot of it on him for not mentoring well enough.

[Fadingpain]

A much larger sin is the OL Beane has given Allen.

 

They are practice squad caliber, and we are looking to improve them with roster castaways who have had trouble sticking in the league.

 

 

 

[Nihilarian]

6 minutes ago, K-9 said:

So when is it ok to question the mentor? I mean Darnold really struggled last night. Where was McCown? I put a lot of it on him for not mentoring well enough.

Hey, Sam Darnold committed 22 turnovers last year at USC all on his own.

 

 

 

Mayfield with no first team reps looks like he just might be the best of the bunch so far. But then he actually has a team around him, star WR, good run game, decent line.   

 

Me, I prefer Josh Allen. 

[K-9]

1 minute ago, Nihilarian said:

Hey, Sam Darnold committed 22 turnovers last year at USC all on his own.

 

 

 

Mayfield with no first team reps looks like he just might be the best of the bunch so far. But then he actually has a team around him, star WR, good run game, decent line.   

 

Me, I prefer Josh Allen. 

Well then, it’s obvious McCown failed him last year as well. 

 

Mayfied’s debut reminded me of Marino’s in terms of his command; very impressive. Good time to be a Browns fan. 

 

I like Allen, too. 

[Dr.Sack]

3 hours ago, reddogblitz said:

Troy Aikmen was also the number 1 pick in the draft and the Heisman Trophy winner and was really good in college.  None of this is true of Josh.

 

It's like last night when Troy said "Jimmie Johnson said you can play it safe and be good or gamble and be great."  LOL  Picking Troy was like the most safe pick ever.

Troy Aikman had quite possibly the worst team in the NFL around him & yet they believed enough in him to get experience. It’s kinda like Allen. We can play the what if and say we can fast forward through his development by benching him like Phillip Rivers or Aaron Rodgers their first 2-3 seasons, or we can insert him into the starting lineup and let him learn on the go. There is no proven formula on how to groom a QB. I understand your concern that Allen isn’t ready, and doesn’t have the college accomplishments of an Aikman. But the counterargument can be made that Ben Roethelisberger also was unproven coming out of MAC school Miami of Ohio. The Big Ben comparison is a better template albeit he had a Super Bowl caliber cast around him. Allen likely plays for the least talented team in the league. Certainly we all want as Bills fans to see Allen develop into a capable to great starting QB. I just don’t think that any of us know what the best approach is. If Allen struggles or is injured guys like you will say “I told you so.” To me that is unfair because he’s in an Aikman-like situation. No matter what he does this year or improved there will be no playoffs which is the metric of success many people put on QBs around here. It’s almost as if 50% of the board will be down on Allen if he has a season like Aikman did in 1989. I’d venture to say it’s better for us in the long-term for Allen to get game experience, learn and develop. 

Edited September 21, 2018 by Dr.Sack

[reddogblitz]

Just now, Dr.Sack said:

Troy Aikman had quite possibly the worst team in the NFL around him & yet they believed enough in him to get experience. It’s kinda like Allen. We can play the what if and say we can fast forward through his development by benching him like Phillip Rivers or Aaron Rodgers their first 2-3 seasons, or we can insert him into the starting lineup and let him learn on the go. There is no proven formula on how to groom a QB. I understand your concern that Allen isn’t ready, and doesn’t have the college accomplishments of an Aikman. But the counterargument can be made that Ben Roethelisberger also was unproven coming out of MAC school Miami of Ohio. The Big Ben comparison is a better template albeit he had a Super Bowl caliber cast around him. Allen likely plays for the least talented team in the league. Certainly we all want as Bills fans to see Allen develop into a capable to great starting QB. I just don’t think that any of us know what the best approach is. If Allen struggles or is injured guys like you will say “I told you so.” To me that is unfair because he’s in an Aikman-like situation. No matter what he does this year there will be playoffs which is the metric of success many people put on QBs around here. It’s almost as if 50% of the board will be down on Allen if he has a season like Aikman did in 1989. I’d venture to say it’s better for us in the long-term for Allen to get game experience, learn and develop. 

 

True.

 

this is just one of those age old football arguments similar to who was better, Hank Aaron or Babe Ruth.  We all have our opinions but no one really knows.  How could we?  We can't one QB and do both to him to see which is better. 

 

Big Ben had a good team and a good coach and another experienced starter ahead of him. He didn't start out of the chute.  And he was able to win one SB his second year in a game where he out and out sucked.   So I think it's totally different.

[BillsFan17]

6 hours ago, Fadingpain said:

A much larger sin is the OL Beane has given Allen.

 

They are practice squad caliber, and we are looking to improve them with roster castaways who have had trouble sticking in the league.

 

 

 

Wood and Incognito's situations absolutely set us back. I dont fully put it on Beane that he didnt replace to main pieces of the line with the cap situation we have.

[ganesh]

7 hours ago, Fadingpain said:

A much larger sin is the OL Beane has given Allen.

 

They are practice squad caliber, and we are looking to improve them with roster castaways who have had trouble sticking in the league.

 

 

 

Actually look at the OL analysis on other threads...Against the chargers the OL actually gave time to Allen.  The fault was more on Allen (Rookie) and his TE/RBs who did a poor job on pass blocking 

[Bing Bong]

The biggest sin is if Allen is being told to learn a lick from Peterman. With these 2 QBs I want them quarantined apart. Don't want to get any Peterman ooze on our no 7 overall pick

 

The dude made my screen name irrelevant. MY NAME IS MY NAME.

And Peterman took away a man's name.

[BillsMafia13]

On 9/21/2018 at 1:29 PM, K-9 said:

So when is it ok to question the mentor? I mean Darnold really struggled last night. Where was McCown? I put a lot of it on him for not mentoring well enough.

Get over it, you look lost.  Darnold is a rookie, hes not gonna shoot lights out every night but ill bet my paycheck hed rather have McCown there than be all lone.  It can only be beneficial to have experience in your corner, sans Peterman. Mahomes really looks lost after sitting a year and learning from Alex Smith

[K-9]

4 minutes ago, BillsMafia13 said:

Get over it, you look lost.  Darnold is a rookie, hes not gonna shoot lights out every night but ill bet my paycheck hed rather have McCown there than be all lone.  It can only be beneficial to have experience in your corner, sans Peterman. Mahomes really looks lost after sitting a year and learning from Alex Smith

[BillsMafia13]

1 minute ago, K-9 said:

My dad says that when get going.  Guess I gotta simma donna

[PeterDude]

On 9/21/2018 at 8:02 PM, BillsFan17 said:

Wood and Incognito's situations absolutely set us back. I dont fully put it on Beane that he didnt replace to main pieces of the line with the cap situation we have.

 

I think Beane expected both of them to be here this season, and Richie was, signed a deal but then flipped out... I'm not the biggest Beane fan but those two guys leaving is not on him.

[WhoTom]

I'm not sure this guy needs a mentor:

 

[transient]

Bring back Orton. He could mentor the heart right outta this kid. 

[Tenhigh]

52 minutes ago, transient said:

Bring back Orton. He could mentor the heart right outta this kid. 

remember the kitty slide a foot short of the 1st down marker?

Lest we forget.....

[Dablitzkrieg]

39 minutes ago, Tenhigh said:

remember the kitty slide a foot short of the 1st down marker?

Lest we forget.....

Thanks a lot, I forgot about that puss move

[transient]

1 hour ago, Tenhigh said:

remember the kitty slide a foot short of the 1st down marker?

Lest we forget.....

 

Was exactly what I was remembering... gutless POS.  There may have  been a few instances that have rivaled that, but I've never hated a Bills player more than I did Orton on that day.

[Albany,n.y.]

On ‎9‎/‎21‎/‎2018 at 1:09 PM, Nihilarian said:

When Kyle Orton came to the Buffalo Bills EJ stated he learned more from watching him prepare for a game then he had ever learned from his coaches.  

It really helped him become an established NFL star on his way to the HOF.  ?