McBeane's way of rebuilding makes no sense

[MAJBobby]

2 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

I think your doing the right thing and not starting with that just yet.

 

Its week 1.....it is amazing what talent at the QB position can do.....even if it is raw

 

Well typically give anyone two years from QB to coaching staff. So trying to stick to my own mantra here 

[BringBackOrton]

11 hours ago, JohnC said:

How did you come up with that fictitious conclusion? Making things up not only doesn't support your position it undercuts your credibility. 

 

With respect to Incognito the issue isn't so much keeping him or not. The issue is if you are not going to keep him then have an acceptable replacement who should at a  minimum be competent. The player who replaced RI was Ducasse. Not only is he not good enough to be a backup but he is not good enough to be in the league. 

Richie Incognito was not keepable.  We failed to replace him, but we wouldn't have had to if he wasn't a psycho.  Period.

[reddogblitz]

23 minutes ago, bobm said:

Ok you can call it rebuilding but I call it trying to get better.  There's no guarantee that any future picks will be any good and think that history would show otherwise.  Maybe next year we'll all be saying just wait till next year.  McBeane 's doing the same as been done many times in the past.

 

Oh we absolutely will be.  After drafting/signing all these great future HOFers next year, it will be only their first year.  We'll have to wait for them to jell.  Next year they'll be jelled.  This will put us into 2020 and then the guys drafted last year (Milano, Tredavian Nightmare) will be in the last year of their contracts with Wonder Boy and Edmunds soon to follow. 

 

this is the problem with these full tear down get all new guys plans. If you draft/sign well, then by the time you get it all put together, rookie contracts expire and you either gotta spend big or start trading for 7th round draft picks again.

 

Cry of the Bills Bird: Neeeeeeeeeeeext Yeeeeeeeeeeeear !!

[MAJBobby]

Just now, VW82 said:

 

Sammy was always hurt, and then washed out in LA. He's been a huge disappointment, and was angling for a giant contract from us if you'll recall.  

 

Gilmore signed for 65M. Never was a leader and wasn't even that great a Bill tbh. Definitely not worth that money. It's different when you have Brady and Belichick in your locker room.

 

I'm sad we didn't keep Woods. His contract was totally reasonable and that one looks like a misfire but players also have to want to stay. It's not like we would have franchised him.

 

Bottom line, you pay your leaders that you want to build around and we didn't have any (outside of the old guard). The core of the team was old and needed a reset. It was a huge problem, and now at least that's been addressed (in theory). 

 

So where they not players to build around because McD said so? So again my question remains How can a FO and coaching staff use that they are talent void as an excuse when they caused it? 

 

Dont give me the Sammy injury prone crap. How many games did Overweight and Lazy KB miss, and did this regime trade for him? And he got paid about where he is worth and what he was asking for but even lets say not paying him yet why did this regime decline his option?  

 

Fact remains they made moves when they came in that caused this talent void and dead cap issue but yet everyone seems to want to give them a pass for it????

[VW82]

21 minutes ago, MAJBobby said:

 

So where they not players to build around because McD said so? So again my question remains How can a FO and coaching staff use that they are talent void as an excuse when they caused it? 

 

Dont give me the Sammy injury prone crap. How many games did Overweight and Lazy KB miss, and did this regime trade for him? And he got paid about where he is worth and what he was asking for but even lets say not paying him yet why did this regime decline his option?  

 

Fact remains they made moves when they came in that caused this talent void and dead cap issue but yet everyone seems to want to give them a pass for it????

 

You're missing the point. If McBeane gives KB a giant contract at the end of the year then we'll know they're frauds. I really doubt that happens. They traded for KB because we had no WRs, he was a known quantity, and was cost controlled for two years. 

 

I'm saying those guys weren't players to build around based on everything we learned about them during their stints in Buffalo. Again, you want to pay your team leaders. You don't pay your malcontents or non-leaders if you don't have a strong leadership base in the locker room which Buffalo didn't. And you can think it's BS but fact was that Sammy was always hurt, and kind of one dimensional if we're being real about it. Dareus was frequently out of shape and in trouble with the law. Shady has legal issues. This was a team without a real core that was built for 3-4 years ago. Bills needed a reset in the worst way. 

 

What was the alternative? Pay those guys, be capped out in perpetuity and watch us go 7-9 with TT for the next five years? Where/how were we going to get a new QB? That trainwreck would have gotten far uglier than this one will be. At least now we have a couple of kids that might be worth building around.

 

But like I said it remains to be seen whether McBeane can actually pull this off. So much depends on Josh Allen.

 

Edited September 13, 2018 by VW82

[PlayoffsPlease]

10 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

They got caught short handed in the O line.  Other than that?  It is amusing to see all the folks now clamoring that TT should have stayed given the grief they gave him last season.

Allen gives this team a far better chance to turn things around this year than either TT or Peterman.  Shame that McDermott couldn't have seen this at the beginning of camp and spent those weeks preparing Allen instead of running his QB Competition. 

[oldmanfan]

Just now, PlayoffsPlease said:

Allen gives this team a far better chance to turn things around this year than either TT or Peterman.  Shame that McDermott couldn't have seen this at the beginning of camp and spent those weeks preparing Allen instead of running his QB Competition. 

Got to have people earn their spot.  Peterman looked good but then went belly up.  Allen was going to start eventually, just moved up the timetable a few weeks.

 

Would like to see a more veteran guy as backup in the film room.  But it could be Peterman is great in the film room but just can't translate it to the field in regular season games.

[PlayoffsPlease]

Just now, oldmanfan said:

Got to have people earn their spot.  Peterman looked good but then went belly up.  Allen was going to start eventually, just moved up the timetable a few weeks.

 

Would like to see a more veteran guy as backup in the film room.  But it could be Peterman is great in the film room but just can't translate it to the field in regular season games.

The coaches job is not to run a "fair" competition and make people "earn" it.  His job is to put the best team he can on the field. It was obvious very early (back to when Allen was drafted ) that he is a special talent with far superior skills to Peterman or McCarron. McDermott could have made that judgment much earlier, and spent all summer building the offense around Allen.  He chose not to.  That was poor judgement.  Poor judgement in coaches is less than ideal.  

[oldmanfan]

2 minutes ago, PlayoffsPlease said:

The coaches job is not to run a "fair" competition and make people "earn" it.  His job is to put the best team he can on the field. It was obvious very early (back to when Allen was drafted ) that he is a special talent with far superior skills to Peterman or McCarron. McDermott could have made that judgment much earlier, and spent all summer building the offense around Allen.  He chose not to.  That was poor judgement.  Poor judgement in coaches is less than ideal.  

You are wrong in my opinion.  With your approach there would be no need for training camp; just pick 53 guys you might like and that's it.  Guys earn their spots.  If one guy outplays another but the latter guy is handed the spot, that doesn't help a team.  Allen has more physical talent to be sure but that isn't all there is to playing QB.  Joe Montana was hardly a physical stud at the position.  

 

Peterman showed well in offseason and preseason.  He earned his shot.  For some reason he becomes a deer in the headlights in the regular season.  So the Allen era begins.  And the offense will be Daboll's offense and off you go.

[PlayoffsPlease]

1 minute ago, oldmanfan said:

You are wrong in my opinion.  With your approach there would be no need for training camp; just pick 53 guys you might like and that's it.  Guys earn their spots.  If one guy outplays another but the latter guy is handed the spot, that doesn't help a team.  Allen has more physical talent to be sure but that isn't all there is to playing QB.  Joe Montana was hardly a physical stud at the position.  

 

Peterman showed well in offseason and preseason.  He earned his shot.  For some reason he becomes a deer in the headlights in the regular season.  So the Allen era begins.  And the offense will be Daboll's offense and off you go.

You are insane if you think all players are created equal. Do you think the Falcons open up training camp with an open mind about replacing Matt Ryan with whatever other QBs are in camp.  From day 1, they are planning on using Ryan. If by some miracle someone impresses then possibly a change could get made.  Its called "TRAINING" camp, not tryout camp. The primary purpose is not auditioning for a roster spot. The primary purpose is getting the best team on the field.  The auditioning part is just a sub set of that. 

You can think I am wrong all you want.  We know this without any room for dispute.  The result of the insane tryout system was the peterman debacle last Sunday, and a switch to a rookie QB in week 2, without the benefit of being the center piece for most of the summer.  So based on evidence, its pretty clear I am right. 

[oldmanfan]

Just now, PlayoffsPlease said:

You are insane if you think all players are created equal. Do you think the Falcons open up training camp with an open mind about replacing Matt Ryan with whatever other QBs are in camp.  From day 1, they are planning on using Ryan. If by some miracle someone impresses then possibly a change could get made.  Its called "TRAINING" camp, not tryout camp. The primary purpose is not auditioning for a roster spot. The primary purpose is getting the best team on the field.  The auditioning part is just a sub set of that. 

You can think I am wrong all you want.  We know this without any room for dispute.  The result of the insane tryout system was the peterman debacle last Sunday, and a switch to a rookie QB in week 2, without the benefit of being the center piece for most of the summer.  So based on evidence, its pretty clear I am right. 

Matt Ryan has a history in the league.  Allen didn't.   That's a ridiculous comparison

[PlayoffsPlease]

4 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

Matt Ryan has a history in the league.  Allen didn't.   That's a ridiculous comparison

You can't grasp the point. Coaches need to get the team ready.  If McDermott made the correct determination at the beginning , then Allen would be 10x as ready going into week 2.  We know for a fact, that he made the wrong determination. He is benching Peterman.  All the time preparing Peterman to be the starter is a 100% COMPLETE WASTE OF TIME AND EFFORT.  This is now a simple fact.  You are giving Mcdermott an excuse for his piss poor decision "Allen is not established".  I dont' care what his excuse is. We now know he made a piss poor decision.  Not all coaches would have made the same piss poor decision.  That is the reason Josh McCown rides the bench in NY. 

[oldmanfan]

1 minute ago, PlayoffsPlease said:

You can't grasp the point. Coaches need to get the team ready.  If McDermott made the correct determination at the beginning , then Allen would be 10x as ready going into week 2.  We know for a fact, that he made the wrong determination. He is benching Peterman.  All the time preparing Peterman to be the starter is a 100% COMPLETE WASTE OF TIME AND EFFORT.  This is now a simple fact.  You are giving Mcdermott an excuse for his piss poor decision "Allen is not established".  I dont' care what his excuse is. We now know he made a piss poor decision.  Not all coaches would have made the same piss poor decision.  That is the reason Josh McCown rides the bench in NY. 

We disagree.  Allen is now the starter, he has worked on Daboll's offense since he was drafted.  And we'll see how he does.  If guys like KB would actually catch the ball when hit right in their hands Allen has a chance to be pretty good.

[Batman1876]

57 minutes ago, MAJBobby said:

 

So where they not players to build around because McD said so? So again my question remains How can a FO and coaching staff use that they are talent void as an excuse when they caused it? 

 

Dont give me the Sammy injury prone crap. How many games did Overweight and Lazy KB miss, and did this regime trade for him? And he got paid about where he is worth and what he was asking for but even lets say not paying him yet why did this regime decline his option?  

 

Fact remains they made moves when they came in that caused this talent void and dead cap issue but yet everyone seems to want to give them a pass for it????

They decided that paying Sammy and Gilmore would not have created a core to build around, at a cost of 30 mil I agree. 

 

They absolutely created a talent void, I don’t think anyone is arguing that . What people are saying is that  it was better in the long run for them to do so. I agree with them. I am not a fan of the patching holes approach, I believe in the build around central players approach. 

 

Look ok at the talent that people are complaining we lost. Sammy, paid 16 mil and still not that good. Woods great 2nd or 3rd receiver. Darius lazy, overpaid, distraction. Tyrod, the epitome of meh. Gilmore overpaid and inconsistent. The list goes on. These guys would be improvements over the role players and back ups we have but they are not the core that you build a Super Bowl team around so I’m all for gaining assets to start over with.

 

complaining about not keeping talent also ignores the salary cap. Teams get in situations where they have to cut talent to get under the cap. The Seahawks did this just this year. You hope it comes after some success but if your plan flops you hit the same wall. When we brought in Rex the hope was to take out top 5 defense add in shady to make a top running attack and put a game manager in place at QB.  We acquired players to make that work adding in pieces that the plan required. But Rex flopped, the game manager and running attack were fine but the Defense didn’t do its job. The next year with Rex was the same and so him and the man that built the team with that plan were let go. The new GM came in he saw a plan that had not worked but the bills were still coming due, the players brought in to make it work cost more and more every year. Like a bussinuss he had two choices declare bankruptcy and start with a new plan from scratch or limp along with reorganization and hope you eventually get a plan that works. 

 

No no matter what you wanted to see those bills were going to come due, players would be lost. 

[3rdand12]

38 minutes ago, PlayoffsPlease said:

The coaches job is not to run a "fair" competition and make people "earn" it.  His job is to put the best team he can on the field. It was obvious very early (back to when Allen was drafted ) that he is a special talent with far superior skills to Peterman or McCarron. McDermott could have made that judgment much earlier, and spent all summer building the offense around Allen.  He chose not to.  That was poor judgement.  Poor judgement in coaches is less than ideal.  

Allen even said he had trouble processing the Defenses he saw in preseason.
Kid needed time.
well thats out the freaking window.
and fair / earn is the same a best man wins. Peterman did win.

and thats not good in hindsight

[PlayoffsPlease]

1 minute ago, 3rdand12 said:

Allen even said he had trouble processing the Defenses he saw in preseason.
Kid needed time.
well thats out the freaking window.
and fair / earn is the same a best man wins. Peterman did win.

and thats not good in hindsight

So are you agreeing with me that if Allen had more reps in preseason he would be more ready now? 

[3rdand12]

19 minutes ago, PlayoffsPlease said:

You can't grasp the point. Coaches need to get the team ready.  If McDermott made the correct determination at the beginning , then Allen would be 10x as ready going into week 2.  We know for a fact, that he made the wrong determination. He is benching Peterman.  All the time preparing Peterman to be the starter is a 100% COMPLETE WASTE OF TIME AND EFFORT.  This is now a simple fact.  You are giving Mcdermott an excuse for his piss poor decision "Allen is not established".  I dont' care what his excuse is. We now know he made a piss poor decision.  Not all coaches would have made the same piss poor decision.  That is the reason Josh McCown rides the bench in NY. 

McD and Daboll had three unproven guys. No way they knew who the best player was going to be.
Bowles said for weeks J. McCown was the starter

Just now, PlayoffsPlease said:

So are you agreeing with me that if Allen had more reps in preseason he would be more ready now? 

possibly readier. maybe not ready.
i know , semantics.

But maybe Peterman was in place to keep the seat for Allen warm.

 Everyone should have known Allen was next up. Just a matter of time.
 

It is an argument neither of us can win though.
as it turns out J Allen is getting 1st team reps now !
But with the Bills Offense ? i am not sure it is really much advantage  lol. they all look like tryouts to me.

 except Shady.

[biggerdaddynj]

Allen starting with the o-line we have (and had in the preseason) scares me.  If McBeane knew Allen would be starting at some point this season (let alone week two) he should have gotten him o-line help.  I’m not too sharp but it seems pretty basic.  And, let’s not even get started about the piss poor WRs.  I’m scared we’re going to ruin our franchise QB.  

[Doc Brown]

36 minutes ago, biggerdaddynj said:

Allen starting with the o-line we have (and had in the preseason) scares me.  If McBeane knew Allen would be starting at some point this season (let alone week two) he should have gotten him o-line help.  I’m not too sharp but it seems pretty basic.  And, let’s not even get started about the piss poor WRs.  I’m scared we’re going to ruin our franchise QB.  

Who was available?  How much cap room did we have to sign a highly sought after o-lineman FA?  Do you think we should've passed on Allen or Edmunds for a lineman?

[DuckyBoys]

I dont think they had any idea they would win 9 games last year  That in of itself changed the dynamic of the rebuild by forcing Beane to make more moves to have the shot to draft a qb this year.  I wonder what they would have done if Allen was gone?  Which of the FA signings besides Star is more than a short term rental to fill the roster for 2018?  Maybe the plan is to tank and they it right this year and get lucky and trade out to a qb needy team and land a bunch of help in 2019

[reddogblitz]

13 minutes ago, mjd1001 said:

If Josh Allen turns out to be a QB worthy of a top 10 pick, then the strategy worked. 

 

The ONLY team in recent memory that has the rest of the team SO bad a franchise QB can't save them is the Colts, but even THEY ended up in the playoffs and an AFC championship game with their franchise QBs.

 

Buccaneers

Titans although they did win a PO game last year.

Dolphins

Lions (what have they won?)

Denver (Paxton washed out so they went with FA QB)

Chargers (what have they won?)

Texans

Clowns

[MAJBobby]

3 hours ago, Batman1876 said:

They decided that paying Sammy and Gilmore would not have created a core to build around, at a cost of 30 mil I agree. 

 

They absolutely created a talent void, I don’t think anyone is arguing that . What people are saying is that  it was better in the long run for them to do so. I agree with them. I am not a fan of the patching holes approach, I believe in the build around central players approach. 

 

Look ok at the talent that people are complaining we lost. Sammy, paid 16 mil and still not that good. Woods great 2nd or 3rd receiver. Darius lazy, overpaid, distraction. Tyrod, the epitome of meh. Gilmore overpaid and inconsistent. The list goes on. These guys would be improvements over the role players and back ups we have but they are not the core that you build a Super Bowl team around so I’m all for gaining assets to start over with.

 

complaining about not keeping talent also ignores the salary cap. Teams get in situations where they have to cut talent to get under the cap. The Seahawks did this just this year. You hope it comes after some success but if your plan flops you hit the same wall. When we brought in Rex the hope was to take out top 5 defense add in shady to make a top running attack and put a game manager in place at QB.  We acquired players to make that work adding in pieces that the plan required. But Rex flopped, the game manager and running attack were fine but the Defense didn’t do its job. The next year with Rex was the same and so him and the man that built the team with that plan were let go. The new GM came in he saw a plan that had not worked but the bills were still coming due, the players brought in to make it work cost more and more every year. Like a bussinuss he had two choices declare bankruptcy and start with a new plan from scratch or limp along with reorganization and hope you eventually get a plan that works. 

 

No no matter what you wanted to see those bills were going to come due, players would be lost. 

 

Lets see who has been to more SB Gilmore or anyone on the Bills?  

 

I understand what they did. I get what they did. What I dont get is how they use it as an excuse. They created the issue. I also dont get how fans give them a pass again they created the issue 

[Herb]

We're definitely not rebuilding. This coaching staff is so clueless on the most important aspects of fielding a winning team.

[ALF]

I want to give  Beane and McD a min of 5 years. Constant changing of systems keeps starting all over.

 

Losing Richie and Wood set the OL back big time. Daboll needs a game plan that will keep Allen in one piece or bring in another QB till the OL can pass protect.

[oldmanfan]

51 minutes ago, Herb said:

We're definitely not rebuilding. This coaching staff is so clueless on the most important aspects of fielding a winning team.

Like drafting a potential long term QB.  Or a stud CB.  Or a stud MLB.  Will all these happen?  We'll see.

 

I believe you need to be strong up front.  I anticipate a lot of attention paid to both lines as they go forward.  I'll be disappointed if they don't do that.

[MAJBobby]

12 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

Matt Ryan has a history in the league.  Allen didn't.   That's a ridiculous comparison

 

Did he has a history in the league when he started Week 1 of his rookie year?

 

what about Darnold. No History in the league there. Outplayed by Bridgewater and held out camp started week 1 right?  

Edited September 13, 2018 by MAJBobby

[oldmanfan]

1 minute ago, MAJBobby said:

 

Did he has a history in the league when he started Week 1 of his rookie year?

 

what about Darnold. No History in the league there. Outplayed by Bridgewater and held out camp started week 1 right?  

True.  You can make arguments both ways about starting a rookie QB.  Peterman had a strong off season and preseason but folds in real games apparently.  So Allen gets his shot.

[MAJBobby]

10 hours ago, biggerdaddynj said:

Allen starting with the o-line we have (and had in the preseason) scares me.  If McBeane knew Allen would be starting at some point this season (let alone week two) he should have gotten him o-line help.  I’m not too sharp but it seems pretty basic.  And, let’s not even get started about the piss poor WRs.  I’m scared we’re going to ruin our franchise QB.  

 

You Dont RUIN QBs. 

[One Buffalo]

They are going all in on the build around a young QB strategy, and they are doing it right IMO.  This year will be painful, but future years should reap benefits from this year's pain.  A lot of the future hinges on Josh of course.  

 

Here is a good read on how the Cowboys did it all wrong and have not been able to spend around Dak.... http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/24653201/how-dallas-cowboys-wasting-dak-prescott-rookie-deal-salary-cap-nfl-2018  We do not want to be them!  

 

McBeane has been making moves that clearly line up with this strategy, we are essentially only starting year two.  Next year we should start to see evidence of the next phase- building out and spending around our developing young QB.  Those who say that coaching/management are clueless... I think it is just too early to say that.  

 

Patience...  If Allen works out, then I believe we will be contending for many years to come.  

[zow2]

I just find it hard to believe Terry and Kim signed off on a total "rip it down to the ground" rebuild plan.   By all counts they agreed to do that with the Sabres and it blew up.  The rebuild was so much harder than anticipated and the stain on the franchise and upset fanbase has been brutal.  They just can't get back to respectability let alone playoffs. Maybe this is the year, who knows.

 

As for the Bills, they had a playoff team...there's no way that Terry said, OK we finally have a team to be proud of, let's allow ourselves to have the least amount of talent in the league, trade the one proven QB, and be the laughingstock of the NFL.  No way would he agree to that.  Obviously they convinced him Peterman would be a good bridge and that has failed miserably.  and McBeane's defense after 1 game looks like a miserable failure.

[John in Jax]

On 9/11/2018 at 2:04 PM, Thurman#1 said:

His grade is an INC. And will be so for three or even four years.

Most people out in the "real world" don't get anywhere close to 3 or 4 years to "prove themselves." It's more like 3 or 4 months, if that.

 

Since professional sports is such a unique career field, I'd allow for more than the standard "3 to 4 months."  But 3 to 4 years!? Nah, no way.

[reddogblitz]

7 hours ago, ALF said:

I want to give  Beane and McD a min of 5 years. Constant changing of systems keeps starting all over.

 

Losing Richie and Wood set the OL back big time. Daboll needs a game plan that will keep Allen in one piece or bring in another QB till the OL can pass protect.

 

There's a fine line between "giving them enough time" and going down with the ship. They need to be showing  decent progress in order to stay 5 years IMHO.

[oldmanfan]

3 hours ago, zow2 said:

I just find it hard to believe Terry and Kim signed off on a total "rip it down to the ground" rebuild plan.   By all counts they agreed to do that with the Sabres and it blew up.  The rebuild was so much harder than anticipated and the stain on the franchise and upset fanbase has been brutal.  They just can't get back to respectability let alone playoffs. Maybe this is the year, who knows.

 

As for the Bills, they had a playoff team...there's no way that Terry said, OK we finally have a team to be proud of, let's allow ourselves to have the least amount of talent in the league, trade the one proven QB, and be the laughingstock of the NFL.  No way would he agree to that.  Obviously they convinced him Peterman would be a good bridge and that has failed miserably.  and McBeane's defense after 1 game looks like a miserable failure.

One game.  When McD and Beane came in from all acocounts they told Terry they have a plan but it was going to require time.