plenzmd1 Posted June 12, 2018 Share Posted June 12, 2018 7 minutes ago, Deranged Rhino said: You're asking this while ignoring completely what happened yesterday. What happened yesterday has never happened before. No US leader has ever had one on one talks, directly with the DPRK. No DPRK leader has ever signed a joint deal like this before. It's completely uncharted and historic water. Yes, it's not a finish line (publicly), but it's also not nothing. It's an international deal, brought together by working with numerous allies and adversaries (China, Russia, Japan, South Korea, et al). It took finesse, talent, and negotiating to get all those parties to agree to support this deal in the first place - let alone what it took to get Kim to the table. 1 agree with the one on one talks...but we have seen bilateral agreement with North Korea to denuke several times....and I am not being facetious, maybe I am missing something in the agreement..but there is no certifications, no timetables etc correct? Great first step..now make it better and dont piss on my leg and tell me its raining..get in this deal the terms you claimed were missing in the Iran deal( which I agreed with Trump BTW) ...go get em tiger..I am pulling for you and all of the US and the world to take care of this threat. BTW..all still has ZERO to do with Obama. Just getting them to live by the deals listed below and I would be ecstatic. https://www.armscontrol.org/factsheets/dprkchron 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted June 12, 2018 Share Posted June 12, 2018 16 minutes ago, plenzmd1 said: huh??? Wow, maybe I am missing something. So you say Obama is weak, Trump is strong...therefore Trump makes a great deal ...and yet cannot point to one deal Trump has done on the international stage....and that is somehow proof of exacrtly what???? - Release of American hostages from noko, gratis - Saudi Arms Deal - Exit from Iran nuclear deal fiasco There's three. And yes, Obama was HELLACIOUSLY weak on foreign policy. Drew down in Iraq too soon, drew a nonexistent red line in Syria. Bungled Libya. Failed against ISIS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plenzmd1 Posted June 12, 2018 Share Posted June 12, 2018 7 minutes ago, 3rdnlng said: I've spent decades negotiating deals. While none of them have been international peace or trade deals the basics of negotiating are the same. People laughed at Trump for saying it was about attitude. Let me tell you, it is about attitude. It's also about positioning and preparation. We don't know what has transpired or what will transpire but I do know that Trump will not accept a bad deal. you THINK Trump will not accept a bad deal..and that makes sense. I am more of an empirical evidence guy..i need to see it to believe it. And yes, I expect it to come in stages and over time..i believe for the 1000th time today was a good start Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdnlng Posted June 12, 2018 Share Posted June 12, 2018 3 minutes ago, plenzmd1 said: agree with the one on one talks...but we have seen bilateral agreement with North Korea to denuke several times....and I am not being facetious, maybe I am missing something in the agreement..but there is no certifications, no timetables etc correct? Great first step..now make it better and dont piss on my leg and tell me its raining..get in this deal the terms you claimed were missing in the Iran deal( which I agreed with Trump BTW) ...go get em tiger..I am pulling for you and all of the US and the world to take care of this threat. BTW..all still has ZERO to do with Obama. Just getting them to live by the deals listed below and I would be ecstatic. https://www.armscontrol.org/factsheets/dprkchron Yes, this is a first step. You act as if everything should be set in stone by now. As long as Trump doesn't accept a bad deal then we all should be fine with this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Posted June 12, 2018 Share Posted June 12, 2018 50 minutes ago, plenzmd1 said: to be seen no? Has Trump negotiated anything yet? And a deal to secure financing on a property or structure a bankruptcy is not the same as negotiating a trade agreement or any other kind of agreement on a national level. This agreement so far is a starting point, we have been there before with this country..now let's see him follow on with open verifications, including military sights..an agreement that does not end after ten years etc..in other words includes all the things he said were not included in the Iran deal. We sure as hell ain't there yet I suspect both these clowns are just going to negotiate forever. They barked at each other and that didn't work, so they are acting like friends. Kim got the international spotlight, a seat at the table and for the US to stand down on military preparedness, Trump got his favorite thing, a photo op. People celebrating this are just star struck by seeing Trump looking like he is doing something. Same reason people paid money to attend Trump University. They are just getting sold gilded poop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plenzmd1 Posted June 12, 2018 Share Posted June 12, 2018 3 minutes ago, joesixpack said: - Release of American hostages from noko, gratis - Saudi Arms Deal - Exit from Iran nuclear deal fiasco There's three. And yes, Obama was HELLACIOUSLY weak on foreign policy. Drew down in Iraq too soon, drew a nonexistent red line in Syria. Bungled Libya. Failed against ISIS. Again, what in the world does a deal with North Korea have ANYTHING to do with Obama? Man, yall need to let it go...or can Trump not be judged on Trump are you that scared of his record? Cmon, you are going to count the release of 3 hostages as an international, long-lasting treaty brokered by Trump? I think it was a goodwill gesture by NK to ensure the summit, as i think the elimination of the military exercises is a good will gesture to keep the talk moving forward.Let's not forget these were American citizens that were by all accounts being held in brutal conditions...they should have never been held. I will agree the Saudi deal fits into what I was I was asking..but that again is a nation-state buying arms from the US. Not exactly a delicate negotiation going on there. And Just pulling out a treaty/deal is not evidence of any kind of negotiation skill..getting a new/better agreement in place is Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TakeYouToTasker Posted June 12, 2018 Share Posted June 12, 2018 1 minute ago, plenzmd1 said: Again, what in the world does a deal with North Korea have ANYTHING to do with Obama? Man, yall need to let it go...or can Trump not be judged on Trump are you that scared of his record? Cmon, you are going to count the release of 3 hostages as an international, long-lasting treaty brokered by Trump? I think it was a goodwill gesture by NK to ensure the summit, as i think the elimination of the military exercises is a good will gesture to keep the talk moving forward.Let's not forget these were American citizens that were by all accounts being held in brutal conditions...they should have never been held. I will agree the Saudi deal fits into what I was I was asking..but that again is a nation-state buying arms from the US. Not exactly a delicate negotiation going on there. And Just pulling out a treaty/deal is not evidence of any kind of negotiation skill..getting a new/better agreement in place is I don't think it's so much linking President Obama to North Korea, as it is to drawing a distinction between he and the current President, and contrasting their work in regards to foreign policy. I'm much further along than you are related to what I'm seeing in DPRK (and elsewhere), though I can appreciate your position, and don't find it to be unreasonable. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted June 12, 2018 Share Posted June 12, 2018 1 hour ago, plenzmd1 said: to be seen no? Has Trump negotiated anything yet? And a deal to secure financing on a property or structure a bankruptcy is not the same as negotiating a trade agreement or any other kind of agreement on a national level. This agreement so far is a starting point, we have been there before with this country..now let's see him follow on with open verifications, including military sights..an agreement that does not end after ten years etc..in other words includes all the things he said were not included in the Iran deal. We sure as hell ain't there yet Starting point yes, and that’s important. But we’ve actually been a helluva lot farther with N Korea in the past only to see them resort to their usual crap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TH3 Posted June 12, 2018 Share Posted June 12, 2018 54 minutes ago, Deranged Rhino said: You're asking this while ignoring completely what happened yesterday. What happened yesterday has never happened before. No US leader has ever had one on one talks, directly with the DPRK. No DPRK leader has ever signed a joint deal like this before. It's completely uncharted and historic water. Yes, it's not a finish line (publicly), but it's also not nothing. It's an international deal, brought together by working with numerous allies and adversaries (China, Russia, Japan, South Korea, et al). It took finesse, talent, and negotiating to get all those parties to agree to support this deal in the first place - let alone what it took to get Kim to the table. Easy Cult of Personality Member...This "deal" had no other counties participating....just T and Kim....the US/NK has had talks for decades...but our "leaders" have resisted the one on one - because as soon as it got down to details and insurances....it all fell apart....so why meet What's different is T went one on one to start - hoping that the details and insurances are to follow......different yes - a success - far from it - there is no "deal" yet....its a one piece sheet of paper saying they want to make a deal....I wouldn't even call it a MOU.... Do you think a TREATY that will be approved by congress is going to come out of this? Finesse?...talent?....wipe your chin? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted June 12, 2018 Share Posted June 12, 2018 35 minutes ago, plenzmd1 said: Again, what in the world does a deal with North Korea have ANYTHING to do with Obama? Man, yall need to let it go...or can Trump not be judged on Trump are you that scared of his record? Cmon, you are going to count the release of 3 hostages as an international, long-lasting treaty brokered by Trump? I think it was a goodwill gesture by NK to ensure the summit, as i think the elimination of the military exercises is a good will gesture to keep the talk moving forward.Let's not forget these were American citizens that were by all accounts being held in brutal conditions...they should have never been held. I will agree the Saudi deal fits into what I was I was asking..but that again is a nation-state buying arms from the US. Not exactly a delicate negotiation going on there. And Just pulling out a treaty/deal is not evidence of any kind of negotiation skill..getting a new/better agreement in place is You said this: Quote huh??? Wow, maybe I am missing something. So you say Obama is weak, Trump is strong...therefore Trump makes a great deal ...and yet cannot point to one deal Trump has done on the international stage....and that is somehow proof of exacrtly what???? I responded to that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plenzmd1 Posted June 12, 2018 Share Posted June 12, 2018 Quote Just now, joesixpack said: You said this: I responded to that. That's fair..and maybe I should have clarified. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deranged Rhino Posted June 12, 2018 Share Posted June 12, 2018 11 minutes ago, baskin said: Easy Cult of Personality Member...This "deal" had no other counties participating....just T and Kim.... This is demonstrably untrue. This meeting does not happen without Russia, China, and Japan being on board. Just like the meeting does not happen without the sanctions imposed and enforced by multiple nations. Try again. 25 minutes ago, K-9 said: Starting point yes, and that’s important. But we’ve actually been a helluva lot farther with N Korea in the past only to see them resort to their usual crap. We have never been farther, K-9. There's never been this level of talks for months and months. Kim and Trump have been in direct communication working towards this deal since at least March. The truth is the deal is much more robust and further along than is publicly known. Watch how fast the next steps happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted June 12, 2018 Share Posted June 12, 2018 1 hour ago, plenzmd1 said: and that would be great if he is able to get that deal...it sure as hell is not what we have now..right now we have a "yep, thats our plan" from North Korea...which they have said in 3 different agreements since 1992. If there is some promise, timeframe, verification plan I am missing, please point them out to me so i am better informed. 18 hours ago, DC Tom said: That's what these summits are. Shake hands, shoot the ****, pretend you negotiated something that your underlings spent months negotiating earlier. The Camp David accords involved 14 months of behind-the-scenes negotiating before Sadat and Begin met. You think this meeting's the start of talks? Most this'll be is an agreement on a framework for future negotiations and another summit about a year from now. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted June 12, 2018 Share Posted June 12, 2018 4 minutes ago, Deranged Rhino said: This is demonstrably untrue. This meeting does not happen without Russia, China, and Japan being on board. Just like the meeting does not happen without the sanctions imposed and enforced by multiple nations. Try again. We have never been farther, K-9. There's never been this level of talks for months and months. Kim and Trump have been in direct communication working towards this deal since at least March. The truth is the deal is much more robust and further along than is publicly known. Watch how fast the next steps happen. Until we know the details, I’ll stick with my opinion as previous multi lateral talks in 90s and 2000s had concrete, substantive, tangible, and transparent methodology for both denuclearization and verification by the IAEA, including military installations. At present, this is nothing more than an agreement to have an agreement which isn’t nothing. And from a symbolic POV, having our president himself at the table set an important precedent. But we need to know the details before I can salute anything. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deranged Rhino Posted June 12, 2018 Share Posted June 12, 2018 3 minutes ago, K-9 said: Until we know the details, I’ll stick with my opinion as previous multi lateral talks in 90s and 2000s had concrete, substantive, tangible, and transparent methodology for both denuclearization and verification by the IAEA, including military installations. At present, this is nothing more than an agreement to have an agreement which isn’t nothing. And from a symbolic POV, having our president himself at the table set an important precedent. But we need to know the details before I can salute anything. Completely rational. As is Plenz's statements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
/dev/null Posted June 12, 2018 Share Posted June 12, 2018 1 hour ago, joesixpack said: - Release of American hostages from noko, gratis - Saudi Arms Deal - Exit from Iran nuclear deal fiasco There's three. And yes, Obama was HELLACIOUSLY weak on foreign policy. Drew down in Iraq too soon, drew a nonexistent red line in Syria. Bungled Libya. Failed against ISIS. To be fair and somewhat ironic, the premature Iraq draw down was a leftover policy from the Bush Administration. So not only can Obama blame the results of a premature Iraq withdrawal on Bush he also got to claim he ended the Iraq War by continuing Bush's policy The rest of your post is accurate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brueggs Posted June 12, 2018 Share Posted June 12, 2018 1 hour ago, Tiberius said: I suspect both these clowns are just going to negotiate forever. They barked at each other and that didn't work, so they are acting like friends. Kim got the international spotlight, a seat at the table and for the US to stand down on military preparedness, Trump got his favorite thing, a photo op. People celebrating this are just star struck by seeing Trump looking like he is doing something. Same reason people paid money to attend Trump University. They are just getting sold gilded poop. This statement is exactly why people who are emotionally charged about a situation or circumstance, can't keep their perspective grounded in reality. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted June 12, 2018 Share Posted June 12, 2018 3 minutes ago, Brueggs said: This statement is exactly why people who are emotionally charged about a situation or circumstance, can't keep their perspective grounded in reality. You seem to be new here. As a favor to certain long time members, please don't quote the idiot you just quoted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
row_33 Posted June 12, 2018 Share Posted June 12, 2018 13 minutes ago, Brueggs said: This statement is exactly why people who are emotionally charged about a situation or circumstance, can't keep their perspective grounded in reality. Tibs has been educated in 3 seconds on 1,000 topics by way of CNN headlines Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buddy Hix Posted June 12, 2018 Share Posted June 12, 2018 4 hours ago, njbuff said: Obama was by far the worst President this country has ever seen. Because he is black and the first black President, he gets a free pass. The left and the MSM (who were comatose during the Obama years) can’t stand the fact that Trump is taking a dump on Obama’s “so-called” legacy. Hahahahaha...let your inner racist out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plenzmd1 Posted June 12, 2018 Share Posted June 12, 2018 " i may stand up here in 6 months and say I'm wrong. Eh, who am I kidding, I wont ever say that, I will find an excuse" That actually made me laugh! 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdnlng Posted June 12, 2018 Share Posted June 12, 2018 9 minutes ago, Buddy Hix said: Hahahahaha...let your inner racist out. Why is that racist? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Poojer Posted June 12, 2018 Share Posted June 12, 2018 and almost right on cue, it's laughable 7 hours ago, The Poojer said: I find it very amusing that NKorea or Summit or Denuclearization aren't trending on Twitter today, I would bet that when the Presidents Twitter account misspelled the first lady's name, that trended, but not the events of today..... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deranged Rhino Posted June 12, 2018 Share Posted June 12, 2018 3 minutes ago, The Poojer said: and almost right on cue, it's laughable People still think those are typos. It's great. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njbuff Posted June 12, 2018 Share Posted June 12, 2018 18 minutes ago, 3rdnlng said: Why is that racist? You aren’t allowed to criticize non whites in this country under any circumstances. The word racist is so overused these days and the word “racist” has ZERO meaning to me and any other person with a brain in their heads. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted June 12, 2018 Share Posted June 12, 2018 Just now, njbuff said: You aren’t allowed to criticize non whites in this country under any circumstances. The word racist is so overused these days and the word “racist” has ZERO meaning to me and any other person with a brain in their heads. That's racist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B-Man Posted June 12, 2018 Share Posted June 12, 2018 (edited) I agree with Tom Cotton.......... Edited June 12, 2018 by B-Man 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njbuff Posted June 12, 2018 Share Posted June 12, 2018 1 minute ago, DC Tom said: That's racist. Must be my white privilege. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Poojer Posted June 12, 2018 Share Posted June 12, 2018 People also still think that Trump is the one spending time on twitter..... 11 minutes ago, Deranged Rhino said: People still think those are typos. It's great. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaryPinC Posted June 12, 2018 Share Posted June 12, 2018 7 hours ago, plenzmd1 said: and then there's this ...lord this is funny even if all chopped up You know, I have 2 points here. 1. It's funny as hell that you posted this while concurrently complaining other posters keep trying to tie today's events to Obama. 2. As a centrist, I was happy when Obama discussed being willing to sit down with Iranian and DPRK leaders. As the world superpower, should we lord over other countries or be magnanimous enough to take chances in hopes of spurring resolutions? Funny Trump never talked about it during the election, just went and did it. Part of why Obama was such a massive disappointment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plenzmd1 Posted June 12, 2018 Share Posted June 12, 2018 15 minutes ago, GaryPinC said: You know, I have 2 points here. 1. It's funny as hell that you posted this while concurrently complaining other posters keep trying to tie today's events to Obama. Because its freaking funny..if you cant see the humor in it, i don't know what to tell ya. Lord, so many of you must be barrels of laughs at parties.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njbuff Posted June 12, 2018 Share Posted June 12, 2018 8 hours ago, plenzmd1 said: and then there's this ...lord this is funny even if all chopped up Translation....... It's difficult to take the far right seriously when a Democrat is controlling the WH. To be honest, political opinions are a mess on BOTH sides. That is one of the reasons why I hold NO political affiliation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IDBillzFan Posted June 12, 2018 Share Posted June 12, 2018 1 hour ago, Buddy Hix said: Hahahahaha...let your inner racist out. Do you honestly, genuinely believe that was a racist comment, or did you just see a criticism of Obama and automatically yell "RACIST!"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TakeYouToTasker Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 2 hours ago, Buddy Hix said: Hahahahaha...let your inner racist out. Reflexively making baseless charges of racism when confronted with uncomfortable racial ideas which are not objectively racist is not going to help your cause. And by "your cause", please understand that I mean both direct and singularly you, while you're attempting to make your argument; but also the larger societal "you", when you're staring down the barrell of years 5-8 of the Trump Presidency. People who aren't racist are getting tired of being called racist in lieu of an argument being made against them on a truely intellectual level, and they aren't afraid of the social stigma of your label anymore, because you've (both you's again) so grossly overplayed your hand that the same exact thing has happened to everyone else they know or care about and your weapon has lost it's power. Everything that is happening, and will happen in the next few years, is a direct reaction to your own stupidity. Stated otherwise, it's your own damn fault. Enjoy what's coming. Let it serve as a lesson. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlimShady'sSpaceForce Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 So what did “we” give up and what did “we” gain? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 2 hours ago, Brueggs said: This statement is exactly why people who are emotionally charged about a situation or circumstance, can't keep their perspective grounded in reality. I might say you have a point, but you have none. What specifically do you object to? Is it you think Trump University wasn't a fraudulent business? Or you think Trump has changed since he ran a fraudulent business? Or something else? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 5 minutes ago, ShadyBillsFan said: So what did “we” give up and what did “we” gain? Gave up an annual exercise, gained the opportunity to have more talks. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdnlng Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 7 minutes ago, DC Tom said: Gave up an annual exercise, gained the opportunity to have more talks. And if those talks aren't productive we can have the next exercise according to the original schedule. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deranged Rhino Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 13 minutes ago, ShadyBillsFan said: So what did “we” give up and what did “we” gain? Remembering that this has been an ongoing discussion Gained: Three hostages returned, agreement to return POWs and remains, one nuclear test site taken down, one missile test site taken down, commitments to total denuclearization and a formal peace treaty to ending the Korean War. Gave up: One annual war game exercise (which we can do in another location if we so choose, just not on the border), Jim Acosta's pride. Sanctions remain in place (still the most stringent sanctions in US/DPRK history) and all defensive assets remain in place for our allies in the region. The final point there might be the least discussed but most interesting part of the talks. Trump isn't offering to remove troops and assets to make Kim feel safe, he's offering to include DPRK under the umbrella of those assets' protection. That's something no one thought was possible 48 hours ago... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
/dev/null Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 20 minutes ago, ShadyBillsFan said: So what did “we” give up and what did “we” gain? 14 minutes ago, DC Tom said: Gave up an annual exercise, gained the opportunity to have more talks. 1 minute ago, Deranged Rhino said: Remembering that this has been an ongoing discussion Gained: Three hostages returned, agreement to return POWs and remains, one nuclear test site taken down, one missile test site taken down, commitments to total denuclearization and a formal peace treaty to ending the Korean War. Gave up: One annual war game exercise (which we can do in another location if we so choose, just not on the border), Jim Acosta's pride. Sanctions remain in place (still the most stringent sanctions in US/DPRK history) and all defensive assets remain in place for our allies in the region. The final point there might be the least discussed but most interesting part of the talks. Trump isn't offering to remove troops and assets to make Kim feel safe, he's offering to include DPRK under the umbrella of those assets' protection. That's something no one thought was possible 48 hours ago... See this is why Trump is such an amateur on the foreign policy stage. He could have kept the annual training exercise if only had returned some terrorists and offered up a few pallets of unmarked foreign currency 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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