Draft Analyst Joe Marino of FanRag Sports on Bills Draft, Allen

[26CornerBlitz]

4 minutes ago, billsfan1959 said:

In reading through posts prior to the draft and since the draft, I really do not see anything new in regard to criticisms of Allen's abilities - it is all very well documented at this point. I do not begrudge anyone their opinion and I love healthy debates. However, he is a Buffalo Bill now and I personally don't see why anyone would want to continue focusing on the negatives. Once he gets on the field, there will be plenty of opportunities to analyze and discuss what he is doing well and what he is not. Until then, why not take a positive approach? Heaven knows I have endured enough misery with this team over the last fifty years I have followed them - I look forward to these small windows between the draft and the start of the season when I can be optimistic.

 

You're entitled to take the positive approach to Allen or the team's 2018 prospects in general if you like.  How others choose to see things shouldn't have any impact on you one way or the other.  Cheers.

[Wayne Arnold]

43 minutes ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

The crusade by TBD to discredit any draft analyst who offers criticism of Allen based on technical and mental processing deficiencies in his game is beyond sad. Anyone who actually listened to the interview would realize Marino acknowledges that he could be wrong, but the critiques he offered are well considered. I get that people want Allen to succeed as we all should, but to act as if Marino or anyone else who's opinion is based on film study that clearly exposed holes in his game is nothing more than Bills' fan bunker mentality.  He's not going to unsee what Allen showed and change his opinion just because some are in full Allen support mode with a refusal to acknowledge legitimate objective analysis. 

 

Yeah, how dare people offer alternative viewpoints to the four-month long crusade by analytic nerds who attempted to tear down Josh Allen's draft stock in every way possible.

.

We should all just shut up and accept the FACT that Allen is doomed to failure because of his poor completion percentage.

[Blokestradamus]

1 minute ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

You're entitled to take the positive approach to Allen or the team's 2018 prospects in general if you like.  How others choose to see things shouldn't have any impact on you one way or the other.  Cheers.

 

Until such time as he can make throws I haven't seen in a league that he's not yet played in, my outlook will remain the same. It's going to get really boring to keep spinning the same plates between now and preseason.

 

 

[26CornerBlitz]

1 minute ago, Wayne Arnold said:

 

Yeah, how dare people offer alternative viewpoints to the four-month long crusade by analytic nerds who attempted to tear down Josh Allen's draft stock in every way possible.

.

We should all just shut up and accept the FACT that Allen is doomed to failure because of his poor completion percentage.

 

Pure silliness.

[billsfan1959]

1 minute ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

 

You're entitled to take the positive approach to Allen or the team's 2018 prospects in general if you like.  How others choose to see things shouldn't have any impact on you one way or the other.  Cheers.

Trust me, it doesn't impact me at all. It was a simple question: Why not be positive? There was nothing in the post telling anyone how they should or shouldn't see things. As a matter of fact, I said that. I also made sure to say it was how I personally choose to see it and that, personally, I don't see how continuing to focus on the negatives is beneficial at this point. But people are free to do what they want. Cheers.

[PromoTheRobot]

14 hours ago, Sky Diver said:

FanRag Sports? Is he a certified draft analyst, or a certifiable draft analyst?

And uber driver?

[Batman1876]

I like Marino and NDT scouting. His criticisms are Valid the difference of opinion and why he was drafted highly is based on growth potential rather than current ability. 

[26CornerBlitz]

Just now, Blokestradamus said:

Until such time as he can make throws I haven't seen in a league that he's not yet played in, my outlook will remain the same. It's going to get really boring to keep spinning the same plates between now and preseason.

 

Hopefully the work he's done with Jordan Palmer will translate on to the field of play when he's actually under fire in real NFL games.

[Blokestradamus]

Just now, 26CornerBlitz said:

Hopefully the work he's done with Jordan Palmer will translate on to the field of play when he's actually under fire in real NFL games.

 

The book of Josh Allen has not yet been written. It merely needs more chapters adding.

[Wayne Arnold]

3 minutes ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

 

Pure silliness.

 

Great retort.

[JohnC]

52 minutes ago, Blokestradamus said:

 

Hi, it's me here. Guy that never played a down at any level and had Allen as a 3rd round talent.

 

Huge difference between where he WILL go and where people feel he SHOULD go.

 

You can have a third round grade on a player and that player can turn into a first round performer. It happens all the time. What you are seeing is what you are grading on. That's how it usually works. It' difficult to make projections. With Allen in contrast to Rosen you are projecting what you are believe he is capable of while with Rosen it is more about what he currently is and projecting that to the pro ranks. 

 

Based on his college career there is no question that Allen is the riskier pick when compared to Rosen. But because of the multi-faceted and complex nature of the position that is undergirded by issues relating to leadership the qb evaluation becomes much more difficult. 

 

What is sometimes lost in the discussion in comparing prospects is that you are not always comparing apples to apples. The determining factor is very often the situation the prospect is going to. What would be a good situation for one qb might be a disastrous situation for another qb. 

 

I have said it on prior posts that I believe all the top tier prospects in this class will be successful. And I believe that Allen with the right support system and with intelligent handling will turn out to be in the long run the right selection for us. 

[26CornerBlitz]

5 minutes ago, Batman1876 said:

I like Marino and NDT scouting. His criticisms are Valid the difference of opinion and why he was drafted highly is based on growth potential rather than current ability. 

 

Marino, Crabbs, Solak,  Ledyard, and the others on that site do excellent work. 

 

2 minutes ago, Wayne Arnold said:

 

Great retort.

 

It's the retort that your post deserved. 

 

3 minutes ago, Blokestradamus said:

 

The book of Josh Allen has not yet been written. It merely needs more chapters adding.

 

Absolutely the case no matter the current perspective.  We all will have to wait and see the ending. 

Edited May 4, 2018 by 26CornerBlitz

[Aussie Joe]

26 minutes ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

 

Marino's critique was not over the top, yet look at some of the posts that sought to discredit him and his analysis that points to exactly what I'm referring to. 

 

The OP is using Marino’s opinion of Allen to help him justify his criticism of the Bills draft choice, yet also wants to  pretend that other similar analysts didn’t have a more favourable rating of Allen..

 

Marino is entitled to his opinion but I don’t think his analysis of this draft class should be put on a pedestal... as I posted earlier he did have Darnold at number 48 on his board..

[Blokestradamus]

5 minutes ago, JohnC said:

You can have a third round grade on a player and that player can turn into a first round performer. It happens all the time. What you are seeing is what you are grading on. That's how it usually works. It' difficult to make projections. With Allen in contrast to Rosen you are projecting what you are believe he is capable of while with Rosen it is more about what he currently is and projecting that to the pro ranks. 

 

Based on his college career there is no question that Allen is the riskier pick when compared to Rosen. But because of the multi-faceted and complex nature of the position that is undergirded by issues relating to leadership the qb evaluation becomes much more difficult. 

 

What is sometimes lost in the discussion in comparing prospects is that you are not always comparing apples to apples. The determining factor is very often the situation the prospect is going to. What would be a good situation for one qb might be a disastrous situation for another qb. 

 

I have said it on prior posts that I believe all the top tier prospects in this class will be successful. And I believe that Allen with the right support system and with intelligent handling will turn out to be in the long run the right selection for us. 

 

Especially at QB, my grading system is almost determined by a 'pro-readiness' factor. We've spoke about my prospect tiers a little while ago where a 3rd round grade isn't really me saying that he'll go in the 3rd, just that his path to being the franchise guy might be more elongated than his peers.

 

Josh Rosen is so much further down the line as a player, far more refined. I think the likelihood of him working out is higher. Josh Allen is more of a wildcard for success given that his future prospects are based more prominently on growth. That's not to say that Rosen is a sure thing and Allen will be a bust at all.

 

I just feel more comfortable with shorter odds because the longer the odds, the bigger the gamble I'm taking with my stake.

[26CornerBlitz]

1 minute ago, Aussie Joe said:

 

The OP is using Marino’s opinion of Allen to help him justify his criticism of the Bills draft choice, yet also wants to  pretend that other similar analysts didn’t have a more favourable rating of Allen..

 

Marino is entitled to his opinion but I don’t think his analysis of this draft class should be put on a pedestal... as I posted earlier he did have Darnold at number 48 on his board..

 

You have to take that up with the OP.  Marino's critique is fair and IMO should be considered only with what you have seen for yourself.

[oldmanfan]

35 minutes ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

 

Marino's critique was not over the top, yet look at some of the posts that sought to discredit him and his analysis that points to exactly what I'm referring to. 

People are critical of that because it's just another guy on a blog without all the information n needed to make a cogent analysis.

 

I don't put any stock in anything any of these guys say, regardless if they're positive or negative about a guy, if their name is Kiper, etc.  Because they don't have access to nearly all the data NFL have.  When any of these guys can tell me they have sat down and interviewed a guy, have sat him in front of a white board and quizzed him, have reached out to the guy's teammates, coaches etc. and got that kind of background data, then I'll give them credibility.

 

Until then, all this stuff is just noise. 

[26CornerBlitz]

Just now, oldmanfan said:

People are critical of that because it's just another guy on a blog without all the information n needed to make a cogent analysis.

 

I don't put any stock in anything any of these guys say, regardless if they're positive or negative about a guy, if their name is Kiper, etc.  Because they don't have access to nearly all the data NFL have.  When any of these guys can tell me they have sat down and interviewed a guy, have sat him in front of a white board and quizzed him, have reached out to the guy's teammates, coaches etc. and got that kind of background data, then I'll give them credibility.

 

Until then, all this stuff is just noise. 

 

Your prerogative.

[Aussie Joe]

1 minute ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

 

You have to take that up with the OP.  Marino's critique is fair and IMO should be considered only with what you have seen for yourself.

 

I have but he seems to have disappeared...

[oldmanfan]

9 minutes ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

 

Your prerogative.

As it is your prerogative to buy into anything that fits your preconceived bias.  One perspective is rooted in statistical reality, one is not.

[26CornerBlitz]

5 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

As it is your prerogative to buy into anything that fits your preconceived bias.  One perspective is rooted in statistical reality, one is not.

 

What is my preconceived bias since you seem to know?  Let's hear your statistical reality while you're at it.

Edited May 4, 2018 by 26CornerBlitz

[JohnC]

7 minutes ago, Blokestradamus said:

 

Especially at QB, my grading system is almost determined by a 'pro-readiness' factor. We've spoke about my prospect tiers a little while ago where a 3rd round grade isn't really me saying that he'll go in the 3rd, just that his path to being the franchise guy might be more elongated than his peers.

 

Josh Rosen is so much further down the line as a player, far more refined. I think the likelihood of him working out is higher. Josh Allen is more of a wildcard for success given that his future prospects are based more prominently on growth. That's not to say that Rosen is a sure thing and Allen will be a bust at all.

 

I just feel more comfortable with shorter odds because the longer the odds, the bigger the gamble I'm taking with my stake.

It's a delicate issue to discuss but I believe that Rosen's personality and background was a significant factor as to why the wrestling coach wasn't comfortable having him in his locker room or believed he was a good fit for the region. I'm not suggesting that Rosen is a bad guy because I don't believe him to be. But I do believe that Rosen is a much more complicated and challenging person to deal with. 

 

I think highly of McDermott as a coach. But there is a simplicity and single-mindedness to his approach and to roster building that would have made it difficult for McDermott to adapt to Rosen and Rosen to adapt to McCermott. Odds are that Allen was the right selection for Buffalo and Arizona was the right landing spot for Arizona. 

[Blokestradamus]

2 minutes ago, JohnC said:

It's a delicate issue to discuss but I believe that Rosen's personality and background was a significant factor as to why the wrestling coach wasn't comfortable having him in his locker room or believed he was a good fit for the region. I'm not suggesting that Rosen is a bad guy because I don't believe him to be. But I do believe that Rosen is a much more complicated and challenging person to deal with. 

 

I think highly of McDermott as a coach. But there is a simplicity and single-mindedness to his approach and to roster building that would have made it difficult for McDermott to adapt to Rosen and Rosen to adapt to McCermott. Odds are that Allen was the right selection for Buffalo and Arizona was the right landing spot for Arizona. 

 

There's every chance that you're on the right track with that. I guess, to a degree, I can understand that being a large factor in the decision making process. When you're bringing in a lot of tow the party line types that are willing to be sold on Sean's beliefs, Rosen could upset the apple cart.

 

I don't really agree with it because of the way that I'm wired. I believe that the onus is on the coach to adapt to his guys rather than limiting your scope by removing those that don't fit a cookie cutter archetype. Both the NFL and the Bills have found room for much more undesirable personality types than Josh Rosen.

[Jay_Fixit]

2 hours ago, Blokestradamus said:

 

Hi, it's me here. Guy that never played a down at any level and had Allen as a 3rd round talent.

 

Huge difference between where he WILL go and where people feel he SHOULD go.

 

Where did you “have” Deshone Kizer?

[QuoteTheRaven83]

15 hours ago, Fadingpain said:

From earlier today on GR-55.

 

On Allen: 

 

"I had him as a third round pick, my 90th player on the board, so I was very much a Josh Allen skeptic and nothing's changed.  Two major concerns: processing skills/reading coverage and footwork skills impacting his accuracy.  Those are 2 areas of concern that not a lot of quarterbacks have had success overcoming."    

 

http://www.wgr550.com/media/audio-channel/5-3-joe-marino-discusses-bills-and-nfl-draft-schopp-and-bulldog

 

Tell us something new...This is just getting old now.

[JohnC]

14 minutes ago, Blokestradamus said:

 

There's every chance that you're on the right track with that. I guess, to a degree, I can understand that being a large factor in the decision making process. When you're bringing in a lot of tow the party line types that are willing to be sold on Sean's beliefs, Rosen could upset the apple cart.

 

I don't really agree with it because of the way that I'm wired. I believe that the onus is on the coach to adapt to his guys rather than limiting your scope by removing those that don't fit a cookie cutter archetype. Both the NFL and the Bills have found room for much more undesirable personality types than Josh Rosen.

I don't want to get carried away and extend the analogy to the political realm but in the world of today and the world of culture wars there is a faction that is more comfortable with being around "their kind" and there is a faction who are comfortable with the changing world and being  around the "others". Some people like white sheets and some people like quilts. 

 

As I said before I consider McDermott to be a good coach. But my sense is that he has an old school mentality that isn't receptive to non-believers. (Not talking religion but talking about what he is espousing.) You are either all in with him or you are not. Those who frequently ask why don't fit his profile. To carry out the analogy Pete Carroll's tent is much bigger and  rowdier than the wrestling coach's smaller and more orderly tent. 

[DC Tom]

15 hours ago, Fadingpain said:

From earlier today on GR-55.

 

On Allen: 

 

"I had him as a third round pick, my 90th player on the board,

 

In other words, he was wrong.

[Blokestradamus]

18 minutes ago, Jay_Fixit said:

Where did you “have” Deshone Kizer?

 

2nd round and away from Hue Jackson

[hondo in seattle]

I guess I just don't get the point of this thread.  

Are we all going to start a new thread every time we find a so-called expert who agrees with our POV?   And then rehash the same arguments we've been having on other threads?

 

There's no new information here.  Some people like the Allen pick.  Others don't.  We just found out the great Joe Marino is in the second group.  Who cares?  If we keep digging on the internet, we'll keep finding more 'experts' who like the pick, or don't.  Are we going to start a new thread every time?

 

 

[Bing Bong]

U jelly Marino cause we picked a QB over u. 

[xsoldier54]

15 hours ago, Wayne Arnold said:

 

 

15 hours ago, Fadingpain said:

From earlier today on GR-55.

 

On Allen: 

 

"I had him as a third round pick, my 90th player on the board, so I was very much a Josh Allen skeptic and nothing's changed.  Two major concerns: processing skills/reading coverage and footwork skills impacting his accuracy.  Those are 2 areas of concern that not a lot of quarterbacks have had success overcoming."    

 

http://www.wgr550.com/media/audio-channel/5-3-joe-marino-discusses-bills-and-nfl-draft-schopp-and-bulldog

If he had him as a third round pick, then he's the only one in the country that did.   Some even had him going number 1 overall.  Wouldn't put too much stock in this as the guy obviously has no clue.

[atlbillsfan1975]

4 hours ago, Ayjent said:

I think you are underselling Tyrod and overselling Allen.  Actually, they may be more similar in terms of timing and anticipation on throws than we all may like.  The difference being Tyrod wouldn’t throw a bad out route late, and that was one of Allen’s most troubling bad habits in college.  

 

I know the Bills got a 3rd round pick and saved salary, but I still think having Tyrod was a better plan than 3 inexperienced guys and a lack of continuity from the playoff run.  I don’t think AJ McCarron is the same caliber QB and lacks the all around ability of Tyrod.  I just don’t understand getting rid of a serviceable starter until someone unseats him because of undeniable talent.  

 

The Bills have done this before, and it didn’t work out.  I understand different players, different coaches and different FO.  But same error - the team is likely to take a big step backwards this year and it will be because of the offense.

 

 

Look Taylor was what he was. Bills got the max out of him and it was just enough to make the playoffs and not enough to win a playoff game. Time to move on. I am not underselling Tyrod just being factual. After this much time in the league and as a starter Tyrod is what he is. Allen has potential not yet understood. That potential might be what the Bills have been needing for years. I am going to think it is because that what I choose to believe. You can choose to believe it won’t happen. 

[HiddenInLight]

Wasn't one of the strengths listed that he was good at processing information?

[JMF2006]

2 hours ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

The crusade by TBD to discredit any draft analyst who offers criticism of Allen based on technical and mental processing deficiencies in his game is beyond sad. Anyone who actually listened to the interview would realize Marino acknowledges that he could be wrong, but the critiques he offered are well considered. I get that people want Allen to succeed as we all should, but to act as if Marino or anyone else who's opinion is based on film study that clearly exposed holes in his game is nothing more than Bills' fan bunker mentality.  He's not going to unsee what Allen showed and change his opinion just because some are in full Allen support mode with a refusal to acknowledge legitimate objective analysis. 

 

 

 

I love  the " But I could be wrong" disclaimer.

 

Have some balls Marino and say what you mean and mean what you say.

 

Like I said GR55 bringing in the so called expert to back up their sorry narrative over the last week.

[Tatonka68]

16 hours ago, Fadingpain said:

From earlier today on GR-55.

 

On Allen: 

 

"I had him as a third round pick, my 90th player on the board, so I was very much a Josh Allen skeptic and nothing's changed.  Two major concerns: processing skills/reading coverage and footwork skills impacting his accuracy.  Those are 2 areas of concern that not a lot of quarterbacks have had success overcoming."    

 

http://www.wgr550.com/media/audio-channel/5-3-joe-marino-discusses-bills-and-nfl-draft-schopp-and-bulldog

Completion percentage is THROW + CATCH = COMPLETION. TAKES TWO PEOPLE. People who question is accuracy never watched him play. Put Josh Rosen at Wyoming and what would his completion rate be??

 

 

[HappyDays]

2 minutes ago, Tatonka68 said:

Completion percentage is THROW + CATCH = COMPLETION. TAKES TWO PEOPLE. People who question is accuracy never watched him play. Put Josh Rosen at Wyoming and what would his completion rate be??

 

Where did Joe Marino mention his completion percentage?

[26CornerBlitz]

6 minutes ago, JMF2006 said:

 

I love  the " But I could be wrong" disclaimer.

 

Have some balls Marino and say what you mean and mean what you say.

 

Like I said GR55 bringing in the so called expert to back up their sorry narrative over the last week.

 

He did exactly that. Sorry that hurts your feelings that he holds the very same opinion well before the Bills drafted him. 

[JMF2006]

4 minutes ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

 

He did exactly that. Sorry that hurts your feelings that he holds the very same opinion well before the Bills drafted him. 

 

I have no iron in the fire.

 

I am just saying the only reason this turkey got on the air is that GR55 is all butt hurt that Beane passed on Rosen.

8 minutes ago, Tatonka68 said:

Completion percentage is THROW + CATCH = COMPLETION. TAKES TWO PEOPLE. People who question is accuracy never watched him play. Put Josh Rosen at Wyoming and what would his completion rate be??

 

 

 

He would have quit football to play tennis

Edited May 4, 2018 by JMF2006

[26CornerBlitz]

Just now, JMF2006 said:

 

I have no iron in the fire.

 

I am just saying the only reason this turkey got on the air is that GR55 is all butt hurt that Beane passed on Rosen.

 

Seems to me they are just bringing back the guys they had on prior to the draft to assess how the Bills did in addition to thoughts in the draft in general. 

[JMF2006]

Maybe I don't listen everyday.

 

I haven't listened since Scoop and Bulldung were getting goofy last week.

[26CornerBlitz]

Just now, JMF2006 said:

Maybe I don't listen everyday.

 

I haven't listened since Scoop and Bulldung were getting goofy last week.

 

Before the draft they had Sigmund Bloom on who loves Allen and it wouldn't surprise me if he's on again very soon.

 

Actually he was on after the Bills drafted Allen: http://www.wgr550.com/media/audio-channel/4-27-sigmund-bloom-talks-josh-allen-schopp-and-bulldog