Alphadawg7 Posted September 8, 2017 Share Posted September 8, 2017 (edited) I hear you, Dave -- I think the bigger point is that MG only rushed for 40-some yards and his TDs appeared to me to be the result of blocking and holes any RB would find. A "difference-maker" type of RB takes poor blocking and still finds a way to make something happen. Ok, we need to stop making conclusions based on stat boxes. If anyone watched the hole game, it was clear as day that MG ran really really well. Drew comparisons on multiple plays to LeVeon Bell with his patience. That is not luck, that is not just the OL making things easy...thats a smart RB letting things develop and finding the holes. The stat box shows less production because NE rotated 4 talented RBs throughout the night, all who are great fits for their offense. James White is coming of a monstrous (should have at LEAST been CO-MVP in the SB, if not MVP) Super Bowl performance, Dixon has been very very good when healthy, and Rex was turning heads there all off season and preseason. New Englands committee approach is going to limit his yardage totals to being inconsistent, and they SHOULD do that, they have 4 guys who should touch the ball and keep each other fresh and the defense constantly adjusting to the 4 different players and styles. But MG performed great and showed great patience and vision waiting for and finding holes. This is a guy who averaged 5.7 YPC here, he is no slouch. Why people say he can't be a full time back is beyond me, he is so much like Fred Jackson its mind blowing that people keep doubting him. Edited September 8, 2017 by Alphadawg7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubs Posted September 8, 2017 Share Posted September 8, 2017 I hate to sound like a broken record, but Gillislee did not "fail" on those fourth and ones. Kareem Hunt, Blount, and whoever else would have failed on those plays too. They were bad play calls and the key o-linemen lost their battles. They are failed plays, not failed runs. If success on these plays only comes down to play calling and if the O Line opens holes, then why does it matter what RB you have back there and why would you pay one $3m and give up a draft pick? Can't have it both ways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted September 8, 2017 Share Posted September 8, 2017 (edited) Ok, we need to stop making conclusions based on stat boxes. If anyone watched the hole game, it was clear as day that MG ran really really well. Drew comparisons on multiple plays to LeVeon Bell with his patience. That is not luck, that is not just the OL making things easy...thats a smart RB letting things develop and finding the holes. The stat box shows less production because NE rotated 4 talented RBs throughout the night, all who are great fits for their offense. James White is coming of a monstrous (should have at LEAST been CO-MVP in the SB, if not MVP) Super Bowl performance, Dixon has been very very good when healthy, and Rex was turning heads there all off season and preseason. New Englands committee approach is going to limit his yardage totals to being inconsistent, and they SHOULD do that, they have 4 guys who should touch the ball and keep each other fresh and the defense constantly adjusting to the 4 different players and styles. But MG performed great and showed great patience and vision waiting for and finding holes. This is a guy who averaged 5.7 YPC here, he is no slouch. Why people say he can't be a full time back is beyond me, he is so much like Fred Jackson its mind blowing that people keep doubting him. Plus scoring 3 TDs on short yardage runs really reduces your ypc, especially when you only have 14 carries. If success on these plays only comes down to play calling and if the O Line opens holes, then why does it matter what RB you have back there and why would you pay one $3m and give up a draft pick? Can't have it both ways. Huh? 4th and less-than-1 plays like that are unique and rare plays. KC literally had 10 men in the box on those two plays. That happens on about 1 out of every 35 plays on average (I'm guessing here, but I suspect I'm not far off). Judge him on normal football plays, not the man-pile plays where success occurs only when you can make it to the line of scrimmage and fall forward. Edited September 8, 2017 by dave mcbride Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billsfan89 Posted September 8, 2017 Share Posted September 8, 2017 (edited) He is by far their best and only between the tackles runner. James White, Burkhead, and Lewis are more receiving options out of the backfield. I suspect that they might use Gillislee more in the coming week. He didn't have a great yards per carry but he was used in goal line and short yardage situations which brought down his average. I suspect he will be their traditional, goal-line, and short yardage runner. I think he will be a boom or bust fantasy option due to not always getting volume or catches. Edited September 8, 2017 by billsfan89 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alphadawg7 Posted September 8, 2017 Share Posted September 8, 2017 If success on these plays only comes down to play calling and if the O Line opens holes, then why does it matter what RB you have back there and why would you pay one $3m and give up a draft pick? Can't have it both ways. A RB still needs to have vision to hit holes, explosion to get through them before they close, agility to navigate, etc. Everyone here is talking about 4th and short plays last night which is 100% about the battle in the trenches, and not on the RB. NO RB in the NFL can run between men when there are NO holes to run through. No person get magically go through a wall. But now you are taking that discussion and falsely applying that logic to any run play in football which is categorically not applicable. And there is a reason RB is one of the more easy positions to find effective players at in the NFL, because if there are holes in the line, lots of guys can be effective. But there is a massive difference between a good RB and a guy who is effective only when there are holes. Don't need to look much further than our own CJ Spiller...in space he was lethal...but he was terrible at hitting the right running lanes and was exposed because of it. Hell, he had me fooled too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miyagi-Do Karate Posted September 8, 2017 Share Posted September 8, 2017 I don't even think that's Mike's game (short yardage). They didn't use him right imo I haven't read through this entire thread, but you are spot on. 1) He's not a short yardage back; even his TD's were not the right use of him. I wouldn't put him at the goal line. 2) They also over-used him, IMO. MG is perfect for like 7-10 touches. Not a guy you hand the ball off to 15+ times. At 7-10 touches, he's ripping off a bunch of 10-15 yard runs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldmanfan Posted September 8, 2017 Share Posted September 8, 2017 Gillislee will fill a useful role for the Pats. He fits their RB by committee approach well. Tolbert and Banyard will fill the backup roles well in B-Lo because Dhady will get 80% of the carries and because they have dirrefery abilities. Tolbert will pound the ball more. Banyard more to spell McCoy in early downs or when not short yardage situations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubs Posted September 8, 2017 Share Posted September 8, 2017 A RB still needs to have vision to hit holes, explosion to get through them before they close, agility to navigate, etc. Everyone here is talking about 4th and short plays last night which is 100% about the battle in the trenches, and not on the RB. NO RB in the NFL can run between men when there are NO holes to run through. No person get magically go through a wall. But now you are taking that discussion and falsely applying that logic to any run play in football which is categorically not applicable. And there is a reason RB is one of the more easy positions to find effective players at in the NFL, because if there are holes in the line, lots of guys can be effective. But there is a massive difference between a good RB and a guy who is effective only when there are holes. Don't need to look much further than our own CJ Spiller...in space he was lethal...but he was terrible at hitting the right running lanes and was exposed because of it. Hell, he had me fooled too. That's kind of my point. If the Pats are only using MG on short yardage and occasionlly in normal packages, then they probably made a mistake giving up a draft pick and paying him $3m/year, because those plays are largely dependent on other factors (not entirely as people are making it out to be - he could leap, bounce it outside, etc...). But people on this board are trying to either say MG had an awesome game because ran virtually untouched (except one where he lowered his shoulder and got under the LB) into the end zone for the goal line or he sucks because he got stuffed on two 4th and 1s. My point is neither, rather that if you are planning on using a RB primarily for those purposes, probably doesn't make a lot of sense to pay and give up what the Pats did. But it was only one game so way too early to tell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
What a Tuel Posted September 8, 2017 Share Posted September 8, 2017 (edited) Plus scoring 3 TDs on short yardage runs really reduces your ypc, especially when you only have 14 carries. Geez guys. You are doing some backflips here to defend him. Without the TDs he had 12 carries for 40 yards which is good for 3.33 ypc. Even if you defend him via the "Well Belichick rotates RBs in on a 4 rb rotation" then why the heck did he sign Gillislee for $3.2 million a year and give up a pick? Also until I see him do a season as a feature back, no I won't consider him one. Edited September 8, 2017 by What a Tuel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rant_and_go Posted September 8, 2017 Share Posted September 8, 2017 Pats oline has problems. Looks like over coaching. All chop blocks and holds, a ton of penalties if the refs called the game straight.KC really beat them bad. They had the better plays. A great inside slant game to get them to crowd the box, then went deep with Hill and RBs out the back field to take the top off.Pats once again tried to game the system. Hitting the punter back to back trying to get a better return was really low brow. Same tea-bagging Kelce, and Hogan running down the field with his arm around the defender trying to call a penalty. They really did ruin the game. All the rating losses are on them.Brady looks yellow, like his liver is failing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magox Posted September 8, 2017 Share Posted September 8, 2017 To me, he looked very good in that offense. Looked like they incorporated new (for NE) running play concepts for MG, which looked similar to some of Lynn's off-tackle plays last year. He's a patient runner - he drifts towards the tackle, waits for a seam, and then explodes. IMO he'd be PERFECT for the Dennison scheme. I think he would have been a good fit as well. He looked great on that stretched out first called back TD. He made that look easier than it was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted September 8, 2017 Share Posted September 8, 2017 I was personally surprised that they didn't QB sneak on one of those two short conversions. Brady's conversion rate on those is pretty damn good. Never understood why teams prefer having a RB start from 8yds back from LOS to gain half a yard when the QB is right there and can just fall forward; especially a QB as big as Brady. Send 4 WRs and a big back on the field. Spread the defense and either sneak or pound it but don't run into a pile That's kind of my point. If the Pats are only using MG on short yardage and occasionlly in normal packages, then they probably made a mistake giving up a draft pick and paying him $3m/year, because those plays are largely dependent on other factors (not entirely as people are making it out to be - he could leap, bounce it outside, etc...). But people on this board are trying to either say MG had an awesome game because ran virtually untouched (except one where he lowered his shoulder and got under the LB) into the end zone for the goal line or he sucks because he got stuffed on two 4th and 1s. My point is neither, rather that if you are planning on using a RB primarily for those purposes, probably doesn't make a lot of sense to pay and give up what the Pats did. But it was only one game so way too early to tell. If he can "win" those plays at a slightly higher rate than most -- "and 1" plays on 3rd, 4th and goal line are HUGE impact and this high value Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo Barbarian Posted September 8, 2017 Share Posted September 8, 2017 Obviously he scored three short yardage TDs which is fantastic, but I think there's a reasonable argument his failure to convert two 4th-and-shorts caused more of a negative impact overall. Curious to hear others' thoughts and not looking for snark. I know three TDs are three TDs -- I just think converting those 4th downs would have significantly changed the flow of the game. Marv said always take the points, should have kicked field goals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fixxxer Posted September 8, 2017 Share Posted September 8, 2017 I really like Dizzy, I hope he keeps scoring TDs but with the same end result for the Patriots team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
26CornerBlitz Posted September 8, 2017 Share Posted September 8, 2017 Marv said always take the points, should have kicked field goals. They couldn't stop KC, so they needed to be more aggressive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaBillsFanSince1973 Posted September 8, 2017 Share Posted September 8, 2017 sure, he scored three short yardage tds but how did he do those couple times on 4th down when they needed it? dime a dozen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlimShady'sSpaceForce Posted September 8, 2017 Share Posted September 8, 2017 sure, he scored three short yardage tds but how did he do those couple times on 4th down when they needed it? dime a dozen. 3 TDs is 21 whapping points. The other 6 were FGs Every one gets stuffed in games. Can't say I love it. But won't diss him for it. Yet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaBillsFanSince1973 Posted September 8, 2017 Share Posted September 8, 2017 3 TDs is 21 whapping points. The other 6 were FGs Every one gets stuffed in games. they're still a dime a dozen. he's not elite, average to above average in the right circumstances. I agree with what was posted earlier about misusing him. still, JAG. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
section122 Posted September 8, 2017 Share Posted September 8, 2017 I still stand by my assertion that the Bills called bb's bluff. He was trying to get the Bills to overpay for a backup rb. It is the only way it makes sense. It is so unpatriot like to pay someone that much money and give up a draft pick for limited production. They had extra salary cap and tried to put the screws to the Bills it just didn't work as they envisioned when the Bills didn't match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlimShady'sSpaceForce Posted September 8, 2017 Share Posted September 8, 2017 they're still a dime a dozen. he's not elite, average to above average in the right circumstances. I agree with what was posted earlier about misusing him. still, JAG. No argument with that. Fantasy players are still happy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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