Is McDermott/Bean just Jauron/Levy II?

[Fan in Chicago]

 

 

I also don't understand how Beane & McD will shape the roster in their vision if they're NOT given the freedom to do so. That would be more like Levy/Jauron who executed a strategy with one hand tied behind their back. They had no choice but to build through the draft and street FAs.

But, McD and Beane did have a choice. Yet they started off by not exercising that right. They got rid of few players they did not have to, not cos their contract was up, not cos they were over the cap. Their hand was not forced and yet they chose to exchange for decidedly lesser players today. I am all for roster building but you have to start with what you have, work out the rookie kinks (HC and GM), learn to manage the game, show small successes and then go on to become more ambitious. Starting off handicapping yourself on the talent side is tantamount to voluntarily chopping your hand off without needing anyone to tie it for you.

Edited August 16, 2017 by Fan in Chicago

[Bill from NYC]

It is just so early for this kind of talk

I disagree. Badol is speculating and there is a basis for this John.

 

This year, the Bills once again passed on a quarterback and drafted a first round corner. Who does this sound like? And yes, I know they acquired a 2018 first rounder. They deserved one for trading down 16 slots!!!

 

In 2006, Levy/Jauron entered the draft with a 1st (#8), an early second and 2 early thirds. They came away with Whitner, McCargo, and Ashton Youboty. That's right, those three players with 4 early picks. In the 4th, they drafted Ko Simpson.

 

In summary this, along with the trades, is not a great start. If they mess up the 2018 draft, will you still support them? In other words, is there any limit to how many bad moves you will tolerate?

 

From where I sit, there is NO excuse for a poor draft with all of those picks. Jmo.

[San-O]

 

Ehh, probably. Bills.

 

 

Well, if they start drafting DBs like they're the only position on the Team, perhaps...

[Magox]

But, McD and Beane did have a choice. Yet they started off by not exercising that right. They got rid of few players they did not have to, not cos their contract was up, not cos they were over the cap. Their hand was not forced and yet they chose to exchange for decidedly lesser players today. I am all for roster building but you have to start with what you have, work out the rookie kinks (HC and GM), learn to manage the game, show small successes and then go on to become more ambitious. Starting off handicapping yourself on the talent side is tantamount to voluntarily chopping your hand off without needing anyone to tie it for you.

 

This is all under the assumption that they didn't believe that the moves they made was for the betterment of this franchise moving forward. It's ok for anyone to believe that they didn't make the right moves but I find it highly improbable that when they decided to trade Sammy and Darby that they believed they were making the calculations that they were "handicapping" this team. They made a judgement that Sammy wasn't worth the financial risk. Anyone can reasonably disagree with their decision, but that was the calculation.

I disagree. Badol is speculating and there is a basis for this John.

 

This year, the Bills once again passed on a quarterback and drafted a first round corner. Who does this sound like? And yes, I know they acquired a 2018 first rounder. They deserved one for trading down 16 slots!!!

 

In 2006, Levy/Jauron entered the draft with a 1st (#8), an early second and 2 early thirds. They came away with Whitner, McCargo, and Ashton Youboty. That's right, those three players with 4 early picks. In the 4th, they drafted Ko Simpson.

 

In summary this, along with the trades, is not a great start. If they mess up the 2018 draft, will you still support them? In other words, is there any limit to how many bad moves you will tolerate?

 

From where I sit, there is NO excuse for a poor draft with all of those picks. Jmo.

 

With all due respect, the basis of a good portion of your argument is that they pay for the sins of a Jauron/Levy's draft decisions. That is not a valid criticism.

[San-O]

Jauron/Levy's drafts included more DBs drafted during their tenure than any other team in the NFL. And they drafted poorly as well.

[JimKellyTryouts]

How the **** did this **** topic get to 7 pages?

[PolishDave]

Jauron/Levy's drafts included more DBs drafted during their tenure than any other team in the NFL. And they drafted poorly as well.

 

Well Jauron was a free safety in the NFL right? McDermott was a DB in college. So.............

 

Maybe they both thought they were the most important people on the field then too.... ey?

[San-O]

 

Well Jauron was a free safety in the NFL right? McDermott was a DB in college. So.............

 

Maybe they both thought they were the most important people on the field then too.... ey?

 

 

Right. Didn't know that.

 

Maybe!

 

If you can pick up an extra DB here or there.that's fine.

 

I would also focus on the O-line some, as Glenn is always having some level of health issue it seems,and Woods is getting up there pretty good. IMO.

[GG]

 

This year, the Bills once again passed on a quarterback and drafted a first round corner. Who does this sound like? And yes, I know they acquired a 2018 first rounder. They deserved one for trading down 16 slots!!!

 

 

This was a very reasonable gamble for them to take.

 

Only Trubisky qualified as the top of the line QB available in the 2017 draft. The others had questions, and are of quality that would also be available with picks 8-15 next year. They look at 2017 as the free option to see if Tyrod can take the extra step. If he does great, they have a franchise QB. If not, they can get at least a Mahomes quality QB next year.

[dave mcbride]

I don't think situation compares all that much with any of the previous regimes even if the results end up being similar. The reason for this is simple: the head coach hired the GM. This is a new-ish trend in the NFL, and the Bills are at the forefront of it (I'm excluding Bill Parcells and his disciples here). If you're going to compare the Bills with other organizations, look to teams like SF, KC, and (less recently) Seattle -- places where the coach runs the show and not the GM. For the first time in modern Bills' history, we have a situation where the coach is truly in charge. The previous two Bills coaches weren't in charge but wanted to be, and the results in terms of how people worked together were ugly.

 

I have no idea whether this approach will work. Pete Carroll and Bill Belichick are both phenomenal at what they do, although they go about it differently. Same goes for Parcells and Coughlin (like Belichick, a grad of Parcells University). I have little expectation that McDermott will measure up to these guys, but one never knows.

 

In any event, comparing them to Levy/Jauron or Donohoe/Williams seems to be missing the bigger picture. Again, the results may end up being the same, but it's a very different organizational structure than what we as Bills fans are used to.

Edited August 16, 2017 by dave mcbride

[dave mcbride]

The value he put on Watkins tells me he won't touch a Coughlin or Parcells.

But that's not really the point. One may think that this team is as poor as Levy/Jauron (although obviously the jury is out), but I'm talking about structure and approach. The coach is in the driver's seat.

[Bill from NYC]

 

This was a very reasonable gamble for them to take.

 

Only Trubisky qualified as the top of the line QB available in the 2017 draft. The others had questions, and are of quality that would also be available with picks 8-15 next year. They look at 2017 as the free option to see if Tyrod can take the extra step. If he does great, they have a franchise QB. If not, they can get at least a Mahomes quality QB next year.

Gerry the move might turn out to be a good one. I wouldn't bank on it but it's surely possible. The OP was asking if the new admin compares to Levy/Jauron and I think that there are in fact similarities at this point.

Edited August 16, 2017 by Bill from NYC

[GG]

Gerry the move might turn out to be a good one. I wouldn't bank on it but it's surely possible. The OP was asking if the new admin compares to Levy/Jauron and I think that there are in fact similarities at this point.

 

As dave alluded to above, the Bills organizational structure is totally different today than it was in 2006, starting from the owner all the way down to the coach. There's no hapless name-only GM, there's no absentee director of scouting, there's no coach who can't get the resources he needs. It was the perfect storm of no accountability by anyone to no one.

 

It is as far from today's set up as you can get.

[eball]

Gerry the move might turn out to be a good one. I wouldn't bank on it but it's surely possible. The OP was asking if the new admin compares to Levy/Jauron and I think that there are in fact similarities at this point.

 

But there aren't. Beane is in no way, shape, or form similar to Levy. He got here after the draft so we don't even know how a draft under him will look. McDermott shares a defensive background with Jauron but we haven't even see him coach a game yet! And as noted above, the Bills have given McD unprecedented power within the organization.

 

It's a YUUUUGE stretch to compare the two GM/HC situations. In fact, the Bills have never operated under such a structure as the one currently in place.

[Coach Tuesday]

Putting aside the structure, isn't one of the similarities the notion that star players are expendable, culture trumps talent, and holes should be plugged through the draft? I thought that was one of the premises.

[eball]

Putting aside the structure, isn't one of the similarities the notion that star players are expendable, culture trumps talent, and holes should be plugged through the draft? I thought that was one of the premises.

 

All of those are assumptions the OP made -- not proven facts. This regime has consistently stated the Bills will build through the draft -- as any sound organization should. We don't know yet what that means when their drafted players come up for their 2nd and 3rd deals. It's premature to draw conclusions.

[eball]

We just saw what it means.

 

They ain't paying guys big money ... At least not WRs apparently.

 

Unless of course your suggesting they didn't draft him so they don't want to pay him which is stupidity at its finest.

 

Umm, no, we didn't. There were multiple factors playing into the Sammy decision. That fact that the Bills were pretty widely applauded for these trades should at least give you pause that Beane isn't the rube you apparently think he is.

[GG]

Putting aside the structure, isn't one of the similarities the notion that star players are expendable, culture trumps talent, and holes should be plugged through the draft? I thought that was one of the premises.

 

I tend to differentiate between what people say and what people do. Please point out the eras in Ralph Wilson's ownership when Bills added or were competing to add high profile veterans to the roster after April?

[8-8 Forever?]

They are certainly not re-treads. That's refreshing. And I think they'll turn out to be far more capable in the long run.

yeah i agree... the Sammy thing just didn't work out, he's at the end of his contract and he is not worth risking $15m/year with his brittle little slow footed (per Shady) body. They weren't resigning him in any scenario. I'm thrilled they got something good for him. Just is what it is. Darby was replaced straight up and we got a high pick.

 

This rebuild will take years. Pray they lose out, keep the team together and get Darnold. That kid is going to be great right out of the gate it seems.

 

This year they'll play good defense, run the dink and dunk WC offense, compete hard and win a few but the team just isn't that talented right now and doesn't have a top 10 QB, so might as well go for the draft while keeping as many good players under contract as possible. Right?

[Coach Tuesday]

 

I tend to differentiate between what people say and what people do. Please point out the eras in Ralph Wilson's ownership when Bills added or were competing to add high profile veterans to the roster after April?

Terrell Owens was far more high-profile than Boldin, who had no other offers.

[mjt328]

I believe that coaching/front office style is very overrated.

There are many approaches that can work... IF they are done correctly.

 

Marv Levy was a great coach. But he was a terrible GM because he sucked at drafting, and he sucked at adding free agents. It's that simple.

It had nothing to do with his personality, or his desire to add high-character players. He just did a poor job at giving the Bills a talented team.

[GG]

Terrell Owens was far more high-profile than Boldin, who had no other offers.

 

Was Owens signed after April?

[mjt328]

 

Umm, no, we didn't. There were multiple factors playing into the Sammy decision. That fact that the Bills were pretty widely applauded for these trades should at least give you pause that Beane isn't the rube you apparently think he is.

 

Outside of the Buffalo fans/media, I haven't seen anyone applauding the Sammy Watkins trade.

Most are questioning why we let a young talent go for such a low pick.

 

Many people have been screaming for us to "tank" for a quarterback for years. So they think would be a step in the right direction.

[sir andrew]

Just waiting for Mcdermott's "Winning is hard in the NFL" presser.

[D. L. Hot-Flamethrower]

I believe that coaching/front office style is very overrated.

There are many approaches that can work... IF they are done correctly.

 

Marv Levy was a great coach. But he was a terrible GM because he sucked at drafting, and he sucked at adding free agents. It's that simple.

It had nothing to do with his personality, or his desire to add high-character players. He just did a poor job at giving the Bills a talented team.

This is a great post!

[GunnerBill]

A lot of Bills fans will tolerate everything until it's 100% obvious that specific Coach or GM is awful.

 

Rex Ryan is a prime example. People blamed Mario for Rexs ****ty defense, claimed Schwartzs defense wasn't all that good and STILL wanted the two morons(Rex and Rob) back up until the Miami fiasco in week 16.

I told people Rex was deemed to failure before he got the job. Said after 8 games he should be done and wanted to fire him after 1 year. I am not a serial defender of Bills coaches. I judge by what they do. I give McDermott and Beane a chance to show me what they have.

[Big Turk]

Who cares...when was the last time our coach had a hot wife?

[BringBackOrton]

 

All of those are assumptions the OP made -- not proven facts. This regime has consistently stated the Bills will build through the draft -- as any sound organization should. We don't know yet what that means when their drafted players come up for their 2nd and 3rd deals. It's premature to draw conclusions.

You could've argued this after the 1st year of Jauron too.

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

...this is pretty pathetically laughable.....Levy and Jauron got hired because they gave Ralph AARP discounts......the game had LONG passed them by, but served as RW's security blanket after the Donohole debacle.....

[baskingridgebillsfan]

not even close

[BADOLBILZ]

I don't think situation compares all that much with any of the previous regimes even if the results end up being similar. The reason for this is simple: the head coach hired the GM. This is a new-ish trend in the NFL, and the Bills are at the forefront of it (I'm excluding Bill Parcells and his disciples here). If you're going to compare the Bills with other organizations, look to teams like SF, KC, and (less recently) Seattle -- places where the coach runs the show and not the GM. For the first time in modern Bills' history, we have a situation where the coach is truly in charge. The previous two Bills coaches weren't in charge but wanted to be, and the results in terms of how people worked together were ugly.

 

I have no idea whether this approach will work. Pete Carroll and Bill Belichick are both phenomenal at what they do, although they go about it differently. Same goes for Parcells and Coughlin (like Belichick, a grad of Parcells University). I have little expectation that McDermott will measure up to these guys, but one never knows.

 

In any event, comparing them to Levy/Jauron or Donohoe/Williams seems to be missing the bigger picture. Again, the results may end up being the same, but it's a very different organizational structure than what we as Bills fans are used to.

 

We'll have to disagree on this McDermott/Beane dynamic being any kind of difference.

 

Marv wanted to be the HC......Ralph said no.......but how about being the GM?

 

Marv didn't really want to be a GM but agreed to the role.....but the choice for coach was easy.......he and Bill Polian had a mutual man-crush on Dick Jauron.

 

Basically they both saw Marv in Jauron and loved it for their own selfish reasons.

 

Two peas in a pod...........never have a coach/GM duo matched up like Jauron/Levy..........much like the Beane/McDermott love affair but probably even more in sync.

 

The GM duties were essentially split between Marv(and later Russ) and Modrak(who wanted to stay in Jacksonville year round).

 

And that's how Dick Jauron came to run the Bills football ops for almost 4 years.

 

Modrak put the board together.......Jauron picked who he wanted.......if you don't believe me, ask Buddy Nix......who hurled Jauron head-first under the tandem for the Maybin selection.

 

Not exactly sure how much MORE power you expect McDermott to have?

Putting aside the structure, isn't one of the similarities the notion that star players are expendable, culture trumps talent, and holes should be plugged through the draft? I thought that was one of the premises.

 

 

Exactly.

 

People are focusing on things like the ages of the men..........as if Jauron was destined to fail because he was in his 50's.

[dave mcbride]

 

We'll have to disagree on this McDermott/Beane dynamic being any kind of difference.

 

Marv wanted to be the HC......Ralph said no.......but how about being the GM?

 

Marv didn't really want to be a GM but agreed to the role.....but the choice for coach was easy.......he and Bill Polian had a mutual man-crush on Dick Jauron.

 

Basically they both saw Marv in Jauron and loved it for their own selfish reasons.

 

Two peas in a pod...........never have a coach/GM duo matched up like Jauron/Levy..........much like the Beane/McDermott love affair but probably even more in sync.

 

The GM duties were essentially split between Marv(and later Russ) and Modrak(who wanted to stay in Jacksonville year round).

 

And that's how Dick Jauron came to run the Bills football ops for almost 4 years.

 

Modrak put the board together.......Jauron picked who he wanted.......if you don't believe me, ask Buddy Nix......who hurled Jauron head-first under the tandem for the Maybin selection.

 

Not exactly sure how much MORE power you expect McDermott to have?

 

 

Exactly.

 

People are focusing on things like the ages of the men..........as if Jauron was destined to fail because he was in his 50's.

I think that structurally, coaches and GMs are incentivized very differently. Yes, they're close, but I guarantee you that McDermott is in the driver's seat.

 

It's not like I don't think the Watkins trade was bad, by the way. I just think you're measuring them against the wrong teams. Measure them against current crews in which the HC drives the show. They may still fare poorly, but those are better benchmarks.

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

 

We'll have to disagree on this McDermott/Beane dynamic being any kind of difference.

 

Marv wanted to be the HC......Ralph said no.......but how about being the GM?

 

Marv didn't really want to be a GM but agreed to the role.....but the choice for coach was easy.......he and Bill Polian had a mutual man-crush on Dick Jauron.

 

Basically they both saw Marv in Jauron and loved it for their own selfish reasons.

 

Two peas in a pod...........never have a coach/GM duo matched up like Jauron/Levy..........much like the Beane/McDermott love affair but probably even more in sync.

 

The GM duties were essentially split between Marv(and later Russ) and Modrak(who wanted to stay in Jacksonville year round).

 

And that's how Dick Jauron came to run the Bills football ops for almost 4 years.

 

Modrak put the board together.......Jauron picked who he wanted.......if you don't believe me, ask Buddy Nix......who hurled Jauron head-first under the tandem for the Maybin selection.

 

Not exactly sure how much MORE power you expect McDermott to have?

 

 

Exactly.

 

People are focusing on things like the ages of the men..........as if Jauron was destined to fail because he was in his 50's.

 

...stretch as you want BUT STILL NO COMPARISON........I'm thinking you should slot Donohole/Greggy combo into #2 so Beane/McD can further sink to #3.........I need to make a popcorn run......

[Coach Tuesday]

 

Was Owens signed after April?

March, but so what?

 

And Boldin isn't a high profile free agent.

[BADOLBILZ]

I think that structurally, coaches and GMs are incentivized very differently. Yes, they're close, but I guarantee you that McDermott is in the driver's seat.

 

It's not like I don't think the Watkins trade was bad, by the way. I just think you're measuring them against the wrong teams. Measure them against current crews in which the HC drives the show. They may still fare poorly, but those are better benchmarks.

 

 

Are you not in the group of people that thinks that the Bills approach to this season seems to have been altered by the arrival of Beane?

 

Seems like trading Sammy was HIS idea.

 

Wasn't it Sal Capaccio who said that McDermott sounded like someone just shot his puppy when talking about the Sammy trade?

 

I think these guys work hand in hand.....not McDermott dictating terms........and that means sometimes McDermott will do what Beane wants.

 

In any healthy business relationship you have to compromise and pick your battles....but especially in one as tight as McDermott/Beane.......they have been tight socially/family-wise for years.

[DrDawkinstein]

 

 

Are you not in the group of people that thinks that the Bills approach to this season seems to have been altered by the arrival of Beane?

 

Seems like trading Sammy was HIS idea.

 

Wasn't it Sal Capaccio who said that McDermott sounded like someone just shot his puppy when talking about the Sammy trade?

 

I think these guys work hand in hand.....not McDermott dictating terms........and that means sometimes McDermott will do what Beane wants.

 

In any healthy business relationship you have to compromise and pick your battles....but especially in one as tight as McDermott/Beane.......they have been tight socially/family-wise for years.

 

Agreed. I think the (over)simplest way to put it would be to say Beane does what's best for the long term, and McDermott does what's best right now. They may not always be on the same page, but at least they're in the same book and chapter. Beane will win some, and McD will win some. Ultimately, it's still Pegula making the call. Whatever that's worth.

[GG]

 

 

Are you not in the group of people that thinks that the Bills approach to this season seems to have been altered by the arrival of Beane?

 

Seems like trading Sammy was HIS idea.

 

Wasn't it Sal Capaccio who said that McDermott sounded like someone just shot his puppy when talking about the Sammy trade?

 

I think these guys work hand in hand.....not McDermott dictating terms........and that means sometimes McDermott will do what Beane wants.

 

In any healthy business relationship you have to compromise and pick your battles....but especially in one as tight as McDermott/Beane.......they have been tight socially/family-wise for years.

Which is exactly unlike Levy Jauron, because I can't recall an instance when Levy pulled a move that Jauron didn't like.

[BADOLBILZ]

 

Agreed. I think the (over)simplest way to put it would be to say Beane does what's best for the long term, and McDermott does what's best right now. They may not always be on the same page, but at least they're in the same book and chapter. Beane will win some, and McD will win some. Ultimately, it's still Pegula making the call. Whatever that's worth.

 

 

Precisely!

 

And I actually think Pegula was the deciding vote in this case.

 

If it were between just McDermott and Beane I think maybe they sit on this idea and it goes away.

 

Pegula was very indulgent with Rex and I think he indulged Beanes vision and conviction on this and McDermott being a "one vision" guy wasn't going to draw a line over this.

 

If it weren't Beane's idea alone I doubt he waits to spring it on McDermott the way he did........sounds like he didn't want him thinking it over too hard.

[GG]

March, but so what?

 

And Boldin isn't a high profile free agent.

I wouldn't ask the question if it was a so what?

 

When have the Bills pursued or signed high profile FAs after April in Wilson's ownership.

[Coach Tuesday]

I wouldn't ask the question if it was a so what?

 

When have the Bills pursued or signed high profile FAs after April in Wilson's ownership.

Lawyer Malloy - it's in the first page of this thread!