purple haze Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 I don't think anyone has "given up" on him, I think they are just now realizing how much developing he needs to be an effective NFL QB. Who is just realizing? The Bills? I disagree if that's what you're saying. He played the last game of the season in the final quarter. They know where he is. They didn't want to play him, but EJ was so bad he couldn't do worse. And he didn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QCity Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 I thought Cardale would be a deep 3-year project QB, i.e. ready to start in 2019. That may sound funny, but it's realistic for a guy that raw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
purple haze Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 As Bills fans...the way things seem to be going...I think we better get used to the idea of Cardale being option #1 for the 2017 season... We'll see of course...But it certainly looks to me that IF Tyrod is gone it's going to be Cardale's job to lose... I don't think it will be that cut and dry. I think at worst we would see the three headed QB competition of two years ago w/Cardale, a rookie and a lower wage vet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 As physically talented as he is I think Cardale's ceiling is as a backup. Nothing wrong with that. But you never know. He really should have kept his grades up and transferred somewhere for his final year of eligibility. He never fit Meyer's offense and he would have had programs lining up to take him. With a big year he may have been a first-rounder. I disagree on this. His ceiling is a Pro Bowl QB; he just isn't likely to reach it. We shouldn't confuse a guy's ceiling with what his career will likely look like. I think that has happened a lot in this thread. As an example AJ McCarron was thought to have the ceiling of a borderline starter and long-term back-up. At the same time there was a high probability that he became that. Cardale has the physical tools to be a top NFL QB. It is just unlikely that he ever gets there. His floor was a guy that is out of the league in a couple of years (he may have already surpassed that). It is important that we differentiate from what he CAN become and what he likely WILL become. I hope that this makes sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 I disagree on this. His ceiling is a Pro Bowl QB; he just isn't likely to reach it. We shouldn't confuse a guy's ceiling with what his career will likely look like. I think that has happened a lot in this thread. As an example AJ McCarron was thought to have the ceiling of a borderline starter and long-term back-up. At the same time there was a high probability that he became that. Cardale has the physical tools to be a top NFL QB. It is just unlikely that he ever gets there. His floor was a guy that is out of the league in a couple of years (he may have already surpassed that). It is important that we differentiate from what he CAN become and what he likely WILL become. I hope that this makes sense. He has incredible tools. But I have very serious questions about the head that sits atop his body. Joba Chamberlain had great tools too. The list of such players is long (Leaf, etc.). He strikes me as something of a dolt, and I felt this way when he was at OSU. I hope I'm wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KOKBILLS Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 I don't think it will be that cut and dry. I think at worst we would see the three headed QB competition of two years ago w/Cardale, a rookie and a lower wage vet. Maybe so... That brings up a whole bunch of added issues of course...Splitting time in camp, etc... If Lynn is the HC it would probably benefit Jones...If it's not Lynn and a new offensive system I imagine it would benefit whatever vet they bring in... We'll see I guess... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 He has incredible tools. But I have very serious questions about the head that sits atop his body. Joba Chamberlain had great tools too. The list of such players is long (Leaf, etc.). He strikes me as something of a dolt, and I felt this way when he was at OSU. I hope I'm wrong. He is just kind of a character honestly. Cardale doesn't take himself too seriously and is just kind of a fun-loving guy. It is a weird trait for a QB but at the same time he doesn't get rattled because of it. The sun is always going to come up the next day in Cardale's world. Those other two guys that you mentioned are complete head cases. I don't think that he ever lives up to his physical tools because a lot has to go right. That is why I said it is important to distinguish ceiling from where he likely ends up. He, like Leaf and Joba, has the physical ability to be one of the top in his profession. His issues are different to me than those guys though. He is more like trying to convert a basketball player to TE (if that makes sense). He is so far away technique-wise and experience-wise that there is a lot that has to go right to close those gaps. That is different than McCarron (to use the example above) in that it is kind of what you see is what you get. There isn't a ton of room to go up and it isn't likely to go down a lot. The issues with Joba and Leaf stem from them being nutbags. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PolishDave Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 Unless he shows substantial improvement in camp and preseason next year, I think Cardale will end up being demoted to practice squad guy or possibly just released from the team altogether. It is unlikely that a new coach is going to want to hang on to a "very long term project qb" that was brought in before that coach was. Coach will pressure GM to keep a more immediately relevant guy on the roster. But if Cardale shows enough improvement, he will probably stay on as 3rd string backup assuming the Bills aren't overloaded with QB's heading into next season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 (edited) He is just kind of a character honestly. Cardale doesn't take himself too seriously and is just kind of a fun-loving guy. It is a weird trait for a QB but at the same time he doesn't get rattled because of it. The sun is always going to come up the next day in Cardale's world. Those other two guys that you mentioned are complete head cases. I don't think that he ever lives up to his physical tools because a lot has to go right. That is why I said it is important to distinguish ceiling from where he likely ends up. He, like Leaf and Joba, has the physical ability to be one of the top in his profession. His issues are different to me than those guys though. He is more like trying to convert a basketball player to TE (if that makes sense). He is so far away technique-wise and experience-wise that there is a lot that has to go right to close those gaps. That is different than McCarron (to use the example above) in that it is kind of what you see is what you get. There isn't a ton of room to go up and it isn't likely to go down a lot. The issues with Joba and Leaf stem from them being nutbags. Good points, and I like the comparison. I don't disagree. I'm not optimistic (I don't think a sunny, happy-go-lucky approach to QB-ing really works in today's NFL), but the tools are utterly undeniable. Edited January 5, 2017 by dave mcbride Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alphadawg7 Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 (edited) Amid all of the hand-wringing over whether Tyrod is a franchise guy, I guess I haven't seen a whole lot about what people think of Cardale. Yes, he's still raw and not quite ready for a starting role, but to my aging eyes he has "franchise QB" written all over him if he's allowed to take another year to practice and learn. Pros: -- rifle arm; the 2nd pass he threw Sunday was a sideline out that was an absolute rocket -- few QBs can make that throw -- "quiet" in the pocket; no happy feet and the moment is not too big for him -- great size/stature and an ability to run if needed -- ideal temperament; teammates love him but seems to be able to have an "edge" if the moment requires it -- comment by ALynn that Cardale "has never seen a WR who isn't open" is music to my ears; that is the kind of confidence you see from the greats (reminds me of Kelly) Cons: -- raw; fewer than 15 starts in college or pros -- trusts arm so much that he allows lower body mechanics to suffer -- can he read an NFL defense? (the biggest question by far) I really think Cardale could be great, and I'd be fine with another year of Tyrod as Cardale moves up to #2. I don't think anyone gave up on Cardale, not sure where that is coming from. Here is the thing about Cardale: 1. He showed potential in 3 games to win the National Championship. 2. He came in the next season and coudlnt even win the starting Job in college despite being a favorite there. 3. He has a lot of physical attributes, but so does EJ and a plethora of failed NFL QB's, so it doesn't mean it will equal success. 4. He was very raw coming out of college into the NFL and always seen as a project that will take time. 5. He can't read an NFL defense yet. The people you think have "given up" on him are really just people who understand points 1-5 above and know he is not close to ready but almost all acknowledge he has potential. He did finally get into a game in week 17 but he made bad throws, stared down every receiver, and showed a lack of ability to read the defense or progress through his reads. In other words, all he did was reinforce he isn't close to ready. So while I get you think he will be great, there is literally no evidence to support at this point. His college resume is weak, he couldn't keep his job, and has a lot to learn before any of those physical attributes can help him in the NFL. Who knows what the future holds for the kid, but that future is not next season barring some miraculous jump in his development in an amazing off season...which is asking a whole lot in the NFL. Edited January 5, 2017 by Alphadawg7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted January 6, 2017 Share Posted January 6, 2017 I don't think anyone gave up on Cardale, not sure where that is coming from. Here is the thing about Cardale: 1. He showed potential in 3 games to win the National Championship. 2. He came in the next season and coudlnt even win the starting Job in college despite being a favorite there. 3. He has a lot of physical attributes, but so does EJ and a plethora of failed NFL QB's, so it doesn't mean it will equal success. 4. He was very raw coming out of college into the NFL and always seen as a project that will take time. 5. He can't read an NFL defense yet. The people you think have "given up" on him are really just people who understand points 1-5 above and know he is not close to ready but almost all acknowledge he has potential. He did finally get into a game in week 17 but he made bad throws, stared down every receiver, and showed a lack of ability to read the defense or progress through his reads. In other words, all he did was reinforce he isn't close to ready. So while I get you think he will be great, there is literally no evidence to support at this point. His college resume is weak, he couldn't keep his job, and has a lot to learn before any of those physical attributes can help him in the NFL. Who knows what the future holds for the kid, but that future is not next season barring some miraculous jump in his development in an amazing off season...which is asking a whole lot in the NFL. I agree with your conclusion that is highlighted. I don't think that Whaley and the football scouts considered Cardale to be a one or two year project. He was always considered to be a three to four year project. With these type of projection players what the front office wants to see is a consistent upward trajectory in development. With EJ it became apparent in-house that he lacked the mechanics (foot work), vision and accuracy required to be a franchise qb. So now the organization is moving on. Take Belichick in New England. He regularly drafts qbs, not always high. He sees what he has and after a period of time he makes a determination about the players' prospects. Then usually he dispatches the prospect and then moves on with another prospect. In another season or so based on how CJ develops a determination will be made whether he has the makings of a franchise qb. With these more raw talents it takes time and patience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Over 29 years of fanhood Posted January 6, 2017 Share Posted January 6, 2017 Im hopeful... we shall see. Certainly has no issue with size or arm strength. Seems to have a little swagger to him that's appealing too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobChalmers Posted January 6, 2017 Share Posted January 6, 2017 He was a 3rd string QB who got a big shot on a great OSU team b/c of TWO injuries, then lost his job the following year. He's a 4th round developmental reach in the NFL. What's there to "give up" on? He might turn into something based on physical tools, but there's no great reason to expect it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TSOL Posted January 6, 2017 Share Posted January 6, 2017 I think its wildly optimistic to think Cardale will ever be a starting QB in the NFL. He dosent seem to have the "touch" or finesse to his passes and i feel like he just dosent have it inbetween the ears. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldTimer1960 Posted January 6, 2017 Share Posted January 6, 2017 If we don't want to develop a qb, we'll never develop a qb. This kind of logic "develop a QB" suggests that there are a lot of QBs who could be very good in the NFL if only their team would develop them. If that were true, then EJ Manuel would be a franchise QB. He has about as much raw physical talent as Jones has (arm, size, speed) and he is a very hard worker and intelligent by most accounts. Yet, I don't think many here would agree that Manuel could be developed into a good starter even if they invested 3 more years in him. This whole develop a QB is more than a bit off. If it were really as simple as finding a physically talented guy and working with him, there would not be a shortage of good QBs in the NFL. Now, I am not saying that coaching doesn't matter at all, but I am saying that there are not a ton of QBs walking around that could be good NFL starters even with good coaching. For sure, you can ruin a QB that could have been a good stater with bad coaching. I just don't think that it is realistic to "coach up" a guy with physical talent that does not get it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augie Posted January 6, 2017 Share Posted January 6, 2017 I saw more of him this year than I thought I would, and I'm not disappointed at all. It's just what we expected, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted January 6, 2017 Share Posted January 6, 2017 I don't think it will be that cut and dry. I think at worst we would see the three headed QB competition of two years ago w/Cardale, a rookie and a lower wage vet. I agree, but I think if the Bills part ways with Taylor it will be to trade for or bring in a different, ready to roll QB they deem better. Whaley is telling the press "we're not good enough, but we're close". That has to be what he's telling the Pegulas, too. They are surely in "Show Me" mode now. If they're planning on a 3 headed QB competition between Cardale, a rookie from this years QB class, and a 2nd tier vet, it's not going to show much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdand12 Posted January 6, 2017 Share Posted January 6, 2017 If we don't want to develop a qb, we'll never develop a qb. I have seriously hoped Cardale would be treated correctly. as sa long term project with a stupid high ceiling. if only some one had the patience and discipline. if only Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augie Posted January 6, 2017 Share Posted January 6, 2017 I have seriously hoped Cardale would be treated correctly. as sa long term project with a stupid high ceiling. if only some one had the patience and discipline. if only Patience, and a great QB coach to move the process along. I don't know who that is, but I don't think we had the guy last year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commish Posted January 6, 2017 Share Posted January 6, 2017 People keep mentioning that CJ lost the starting job at OSU: the biggest reason for that was not lack of ability, it was that Urban Meyers wanted a spread quarterback, and that is not CJ. [nor has ability to run the spread proven very useful for QBs who move from college to the pros] From Cleveland.com in 2015: "Jones is a pro-style square peg in a spread-option round hole. Ohio State had some pieces to adapt its offense more to Jones' strengths last year, and it doesn't really have that now. What Ohio State has should work much better with Barrett running things." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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