BADOLBILZ Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 Well said. It is disgusting that we have to expect make up calls to happen, and we accept that they are a legitimate part of the game. They are a disgrace to the game's integrity, and the NFL referees, as a whole, should be embarrassed. I agree but the worst thing was that it wasn't warranted.....and you still knew it was coming. If they had heaved the ball deep there instead they might have gotten a PI in field goal range. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John in Jax Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 Brutal call... We did catch a break on the two horse collar calls though Umm, not really on the HC. The guilty party who pulled down TT definitely got his hand up inside the collar of the shirt, and then pulled him down. OTOH, Bradham clearly grabbed the CENTER of the jersey in the back, and pulled him down by the jersey. Are you watching the games in HD? LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metzelaars_lives Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 I stand by what I said. It was only a bad call in the context of us getting to see the slow motion replay. In that sense, yes it was a bad call, of course. But if you're the ref and you only see it once and it happens in a nanosecond, how the hell are you supposed to be able to tell whether or not there was helmet to helmet contact? And plus, you're moving yourself and aren't going to have a perfect angle. It is an impossible task. I don't have a solution to this one. It is a hole the NFL has dug for itself. But there aren't humans who can make that call in real time, sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T master Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 Could have swung the game. Horrible call. What is a DB supposed to do in that situation? That was a BS call !! Graham hit him text book with his shoulder . But all that being said we got one back when they didn't call the horse collar on Bradham when he tackled Mariotta, because they called it against the Titans on the tackle of Taylor ! Tit for tat !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 I stand by what I said. It was only a bad call in the context of us getting to see the slow motion replay. In that sense, yes it was a bad call, of course. But if you're the ref and you only see it once and it happens in a nanosecond, how the hell are you supposed to be able to tell whether or not there was helmet to helmet contact? And plus, you're moving yourself and aren't going to have a perfect angle. It is an impossible task. I don't have a solution to this one. It is a hole the NFL has dug for itself. But there aren't humans who can make that call in real time, sorry. Atleast with 100% accuracy/consistency. We see the occasional flat not knowing rules but this was "in real time did I see helmets hit or were they inches apart." For the guys calling it one of the worst calls in the history of the sport, I'd refer back to last weeks hawks game, the fail Mary, etc.... And that's recent and NFL only. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 But if you're the ref and you only see it once and it happens in a nanosecond, how the hell are you supposed to be able to tell whether or not there was helmet to helmet contact? The rule is not designed for an official to call a penalty every time two guys helmets happen to touch each other. If a guy is leading with his crown against a defenseless receiver, yeah call it. If a guy is loading up the chicken wing to deliver a kill shot, yeah call it. If a guy is bringing the pain after the ball is already gone by, then yeah call it. But for gawd's sake you don't throw a flag from 75 feet away 3 seconds after the play on either of the two guys who were getting down for a key, contested ball. That is well outside the confines of the rule, both in letter and spirit, and imo is a prime example of an officiating culture run amok with the implicit approval of the league. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Over 29 years of fanhood Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 Could have swung the game. Horrible call. What is a DB supposed to do in that situation? Ironically it was easily the best officiating of the year thus far Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fansince88 Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 I do think, however, it should have been unnecessary roughness on whoever came in on the late hit. Exactly. had the defender not pulled him back TT would have had his lights knocked out because he was going for the kill on that hit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miyagi-Do Karate Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 I stand by what I said. It was only a bad call in the context of us getting to see the slow motion replay. In that sense, yes it was a bad call, of course. But if you're the ref and you only see it once and it happens in a nanosecond, how the hell are you supposed to be able to tell whether or not there was helmet to helmet contact? And plus, you're moving yourself and aren't going to have a perfect angle. It is an impossible task. I don't have a solution to this one. It is a hole the NFL has dug for itself. But there aren't humans who can make that call in real time, sorry. I guess the question is: how sure do you have to be to throw the flag? I have a feeling that a lot of refs look at circumstantial signals to determine whether a foul occurred (eg, head snapped back). That probably helps them make calls, but probably leads to mistakes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 Good stripes know better than to make up calls on key third downs, particularly late in games. That guy took a full 2-3 seconds to think about it and then threw a flag from 25 yards on a "penalty" that he still never saw happen. Guys at the HS and college level generally have the good sense to not impose their stupidity on games, but the fact that a professional zebra felt he was entitled to impose his willful imagination on a game is symptomatic of a significantly larger problem. FWIW, I'd be equally as annoyed had he thrown that flag on the Titans if the roles were reversed. At want point do we recognize that entitled officials are having a noticeably detrimental impact on the game and take steps to address it? That's a really good point. Officials know the impact of their calls and they know the down and distance and what effect the flag will make. That guy knew what his call would do, give them a first down they didn't deserve, and the Bill, Graham, made the play and not the Titan. I do understand if he just totally !@#$ed up and he thought from his angle that Graham went helmet to helmet, which he didn't. But if that was the case another official from the opposite side should have said it was shoulder to shoulder. They did the right thing on an earlier call where the official with the best view overruled one from behind on an Interference call. Ironically it was easily the best officiating of the year thus far Overall there wasn't a lot of bad calls for either side, you're right. There is always going to be a couple that could go either way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurker Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 I guess the question is: how sure do you have to be to throw the flag? It should be 'beyond a reasonable doubt' But it seems more and more, they 'intuit' what happened, even if they didn't have a great look at the play. If you're going to overturn blown judgement calls on fumbles, catch/no catch, in bounds/out, then I have no problem going to replay challenges on incorrect personal foul calls like this... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metzelaars_lives Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 The rule is not designed for an official to call a penalty every time two guys helmets happen to touch each other. If a guy is leading with his crown against a defenseless receiver, yeah call it. If a guy is loading up the chicken wing to deliver a kill shot, yeah call it. If a guy is bringing the pain after the ball is already gone by, then yeah call it. But for gawd's sake you don't throw a flag from 75 feet away 3 seconds after the play on either of the two guys who were getting down for a key, contested ball. That is well outside the confines of the rule, both in letter and spirit, and imo is a prime example of an officiating culture run amok with the implicit approval of the league. You just seconded my point. Look, people complain about the officiating in every sport nowadays. That would lead me to believe that those who complain are suggesting that there are other, more capable men out there in the world, maybe currently working as insurance salesman, welders, electricians, etc. who would do a better job than the guys already have- guys, mind you, who have spent there entire adult lives working as referees. Or could it be that since the advent of HD slow motion replays from every imaginable angle, it has exposed more bad calls? Calls that, again, are made in real time without the benefit of replay. Do you have any idea how hard it is to decide if it's a foul in the NBA when a guy drives the lane through a sea of people and there is marginal contact? It's impossible. But what I would suggest is that the NFL instruct its referees to err on the side of not throwing a flag when it appears to be marginal and only throw flags on no-brainer type calls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 I stand by what I said. It was only a bad call in the context of us getting to see the slow motion replay. In that sense, yes it was a bad call, of course. But if you're the ref and you only see it once and it happens in a nanosecond, how the hell are you supposed to be able to tell whether or not there was helmet to helmet contact? And plus, you're moving yourself and aren't going to have a perfect angle. It is an impossible task. I don't have a solution to this one. It is a hole the NFL has dug for itself. But there aren't humans who can make that call in real time, sorry. You're right. I'm in the minority overall and think officials have absolutely impossible jobs and that they are actually pretty good. With HD and slow motion replay from 6 angles they are proven to be wrong a few times a game, but fans think something blatant in slow motion is obvious when it's not and they don't have all of the angles they each have one. The problem with the Graham play IMO is that it wasn't blatant or clear, and the Bill, Graham, made the play, not the Titan WR. The official that made the call knew the effect it would have on the game and he was directly behind. He couldn't have seen the actual hit (shoulder to shoulder rather than helmet first) because he was where he was. That's why he shouldn't have made it. I understand why he thought it could have been helmet first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewEra Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 Graham played it to perfection. Sad that you can get penalized for making a play so good it that it looks like unnecessary roughness Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metzelaars_lives Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 (edited) I guess the question is: how sure do you have to be to throw the flag? I have a feeling that a lot of refs look at circumstantial signals to determine whether a foul occurred (eg, head snapped back). That probably helps them make calls, but probably leads to mistakes. Agreed 100%. You always see offensive holding calls when a guy is beat and then acts like he got dragged down or does that spin thing. Classic example of that today on the Henderson hold. It was not a hold but the guy had Henderson beat so it's almost an automatic holding call now. Like you said, it's a circumstantial call. Kind of like in baseball when the throw beats the runner even though the tag isn't applied and they call him out. You're right. I'm in the minority overall and think officials have absolutely impossible jobs and that they are actually pretty good. With HD and slow motion replay from 6 angles they are proven to be wrong a few times a game, but fans think something blatant in slow motion is obvious when it's not and they don't have all of the angles they each have one. The problem with the Graham play IMO is that it wasn't blatant or clear, and the Bill, Graham, made the play, not the Titan WR. The official that made the call knew the effect it would have on the game and he was directly behind. He couldn't have seen the actual hit (shoulder to shoulder rather than helmet first) because he was where he was. That's why he shouldn't have made it. I understand why he thought it could have been helmet first. Agreed 100%. Some rare intelligent dialogue we have going in this thread right now. Good to see for a change. Also, Robert Woods had some BEASTLY blocks today. Edited October 12, 2015 by metzelaars_lives Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 You just seconded my point. In that case, my bad as I misread your point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r00tabaga Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 Fair enough. I was just saying I didn't see it clearly enough to judge but addressing the posters assertion that H2H isn't a penalty if the receiver holds on.I never said H2H is legal by the way. I said in 1/100's of a second a hit like that is "illegal" to a defenseless WR, but if WR catches that ball it's a "great" tackle. That's a really good point. Officials know the impact of their calls and they know the down and distance and what effect the flag will make. That guy knew what his call would do, give them a first down they didn't deserve, and the Bill, Graham, made the play and not the Titan. I do understand if he just totally !@#$ed up and he thought from his angle that Graham went helmet to helmet, which he didn't. But if that was the case another official from the opposite side should have said it was shoulder to shoulder. They did the right thing on an earlier call where the official with the best view overruled one from behind on an Interference call. Overall there wasn't a lot of bad calls for either side, you're right. There is always going to be a couple that could go either way. I saw a huge block in the back on the Titans best point return in the first half. Right in the center of the tv. I think that the NFL should go to the replay monitors for personal fouls similar to what the NBA does with flagrant fouls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 I never said H2H is legal by the way. I said in 1/100's of a second a hit like that is "illegal" to a defenseless WR, but if WR catches that ball it's a "great" tackle. I saw a huge block in the back on the Titans best point return in the first half. Right in the center of the tv. I think that the NFL should go to the replay monitors for personal fouls similar to what the NBA does with flagrant fouls. I think you are right. Before I used to think that replay should not include penalties. For a lot of reasons, especially because what if you see a penalty in the replay that wasn't called, plus referees would likely be affected by the fact their calls could be overturned and not make as many. But... With the NFL making so many new rules trying to make the game safer, and making all kinds of calls that have an enormous influence on the game, I think they now should include penalties in the replays if they are blatant. There are way too many penalties only because of the new rules and therefore way too many mistakes that affect the game because of the new rules, and the resultant mistakes need to be remedied. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r00tabaga Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 Agreed. Holding, OPI and DPI are judgement calls but personal fouls like H2H should be looked at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CardinalScotts Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 coleman is 70 years old my god give it up......when i retire from my job I'm gonna run around with 22 year old elite athletes.....it sounds dumb to even say it but that what we get Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UConn James Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 Everything should be reviewable. Same number of challenges, but make everything reviewable by the NY league office. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurker Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 All it takes is Martha Ford getting jazzed about it, apparently.... http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/10/11/talk-intensifies-among-owners-for-correcting-clear-errors/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Storm Front Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 Refs were just keeping the game* going. If you have watched enough NFL you knew there was gonna be a flag in that situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickelCity Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 Glad there is a thread about this. The Graham call was abysmal. I was watching on game pass after the fact and still exclaimed out loud at that call. Absurd to the extreme. Great play by Graham. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bookie Man Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 (edited) That call was putrid. Flag came a full 3 seconds after the play itself. Could have been devastating. Seemed to be more of a make up call more than anything. Besides that call, I didn't have a problem with the officiating. Actually got away with a few holds. Mulligan was straight up tackling people in pass protection. And why is he on the team? Edited October 12, 2015 by Rise Up Lights Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebandit27 Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 Absolutely horrible: https://twitter.com/YardsPerPass/status/653651230812729344 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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