Foles: GM "Soured" On QB Before Injury

[The Voice of Truth]

I actually think Chip Kelly has found a system that many QBs can thrive in. I think he has come up with an idea that solves the "you have to find a franchise QB" problem. You don't need it in his system. They only run a limited number of plays so this takes a lot of the cognitive load off of the QB. They don't need to be thinking like crazy on the field. Also, they only have to master a limited number of throws. Foles may be good but I think his success is more a result of Chip Kelly's offensive design and not his ability.

Edited November 5, 2014 by The Voice of Truth

[Deranged Rhino]

I meant watching him in NFL games on the Eagles. You know, for the seasons GMs may sour on guys. Every time I see him he doesn't impress me that much. But I haven't seen him a ton.

 

I have watched a ton of Foles, he's a low ceiling guy with questionable skills. He has good touch, but suspect accuracy on deep balls. He runs okay but not great. He doesn't get rattled (which is a plus) but he doesn't elevate his play either -- he's always the same guy.

 

It's a hard pass on Foles for me. I think Sanchez takes his job -- and thought that even before this news came out. Chip Kelly doesn't care who takes snaps for him, the ego on Chip might be bigger than Bellyaches.

[Kelly the Dog]

I have watched a ton of Foles, he's a low ceiling guy with questionable skills. He has good touch, but suspect accuracy on deep balls. He runs okay but not great. He doesn't get rattled (which is a plus) but he doesn't elevate his play either -- he's always the same guy.

 

It's a hard pass on Foles for me. I think Sanchez takes his job -- and thought that even before this news came out. Chip Kelly doesn't care who takes snaps for him, the ego on Chip might be bigger than Bellyaches.

Thanks for that.

 

Drafting Matt Barkley may be proof positive that it doesn't matter who plays QB for the Eagles, and Chip Kelly reminds me of some sportswriter, IIRC, saying something along the lines of "There is nothing bigger in this world than Robert Irsay's ego."

 

I still wanted him as Bills coach though. At this point, I'm not sure either way whether NFL defenses will catch up to him or whether he will always stay slightly ahead.

[starrymessenger]

Or maybe this report, with Foles probably wanting a new contract, is all about the Eagles trying to obtain some sort of leverage in negotiations?

 

Foles is entering the final year of his rookie contract next year.

 

But if this is reality, then yeah I blame the few rookies who are relatively successful out of the gate for amping up expectations for your signal callers.

 

Bargaining power was the first thing that occurred to me as well. We will know that's the case if indeed they wind up locking him up.

Hearing so much that is negative from posters who have seen him a lot makes me wonder though.

I was always pretty impressed with him but I haven't seen enuf to have a firm opinion.

[Charles Romes]

Throw orton 8m for 1 year after his first bad game and call it a day.

[RuntheDamnBall]

Throw orton 8m for 1 year after his first bad game and call it a day.

Why on earth would Orton do that?

[Deranged Rhino]

Thanks for that.

 

Drafting Matt Barkley may be proof positive that it doesn't matter who plays QB for the Eagles, and Chip Kelly reminds me of some sportswriter, IIRC, saying something along the lines of "There is nothing bigger in this world than Robert Irsay's ego."

 

I still wanted him as Bills coach though. At this point, I'm not sure either way whether NFL defenses will catch up to him or whether he will always stay slightly ahead.

 

Exactly, I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing that CK thinks he can win with JAGs on offense (and I think he even said as much before the draft). I want a coach with an edge like that, so long as he delivers. So far Chip has, but he's coaching in a town with a short temper and memory. If he doesn't stay ahead of the curve, it will get ugly in Philly before long.

[Mr. WEO]

The immediate reaction to everything is funny. You struggle one game, you suck. Erase everything that happened prior.

 

And let's switch Foles and EJ. Who is more likely to be a better player - Foles with Hackett or EJ with Kelly? Kelly runs about as QB friendly of an offense as there is in the league. When he says he needs players to fit his system, you listen because he has a great track record of offensive success. We lack that on our coaching staff.

 

To fully evaluate any offensive player right now is silly. The entire offense has regressed.

And Sanchez was awful before. Chip Kelly is a beast. I completely underrated him.

 

And Sanchez has one decent game and Chip Kelly is a genius. I guess you "erased everything that happened prior" with Sanchez. Awesome stuff.

 

Chip Kelly has never had an Oregon QB succeed as a starter in the NFL--so his offense was not very useful for QBs...the opposite, actually.

[Kelly the Dog]

To further the discussion about Chip Kelly thinking, egotistically (which isn't always a bad thing in pro sports), that he can mold any decent QB into a productive one was always my theory on Saint Doug with Jeff Tuel, and to a smaller degree EJ and Thad Lewis.

 

This is total conjecture, but after watching and reading and thinking, I always thought that Marrone convinced Whaley that he could make EJ a franchise QB because of Marrone's history with Nassib. And that EJ was a much better slab of clay. And the same thing must have happened with Jeff Tuel. That Marrone said this guy has some skill and I can make him great.

 

And Whaley finally said enough is enough and pulled the plug on the whole thing and got Orton and cut Tuel.

 

I don't have any proof for this, but it's the ONLY thing that makes sense to me. It explains why we didn't go harder for a back-up in the off season, and why we kept Tuel for so long when it was pretty clear he had no business holding the job he held.

 

And Sanchez has one decent game and Chip Kelly is a genius. I guess you "erased everything that happened prior" with Sanchez. Awesome stuff.

 

Chip Kelly has never had an Oregon QB succeed as a starter in the NFL--so his offense was not very useful for QBs...the opposite, actually.

OR, he's really that good and he can win with anyone.

 

I'm not saying that is true. That story has yet to be written. Getting guys like Foles to play like he did last year says to me that he can make chicken salad out of chickenschitt. But it remains to be seen if he can do it over time, and he can do it well enough to win it all. I still wouldn't mind him as my coach.

[starrymessenger]

 

 

 

And Sanchez has one decent game and Chip Kelly is a genius. I guess you "erased everything that happened prior" with Sanchez. Awesome stuff.

 

Chip Kelly has never had an Oregon QB succeed as a starter in the NFL--so his offense was not very useful for QBs...the opposite, actually.

 

Wasn't watching the game so I don't know how well he did.

But didn't he throw two picks. In one game. And didn't Foles throw two all of last year.

Just looking at the stat line MS didn't seem that impressive, though of course that is sometimes misleading.

[mannc]

 

 

 

Chip Kelly has never had an Oregon QB succeed as a starter in the NFL--so his offense was not very useful for QBs...the opposite, actually.

That's a ridiculous statement. He had a total of two QBs at Oregon: Derron Thomas and Marcus Mariota. (If you go back to Chip's days as a coordinator at U of O, he also had Jeremiah Massoli, who was tossed out of school before he finished his career. Massoli went to the same High School as Mariota, BTW.) Thomas, who led the team to the national championship game in 2010, was not only undrafted but could not even get invited to an NFL training camp. He's now playing Arena Football in Portland. Thomas was a very good college QB who apparently did not have the arm strength or accuracy to even get a chance in the NFL. Mariota of course has not yet had the opportunity to "succeed as a starter in the NFL" but I like his chances. I have no idea what that absurdly small sample proves or does not prove about Chip Kelly's offense. Edited November 5, 2014 by mannc

[A Dog Named Kelso]

And Sanchez has one decent game and Chip Kelly is a genius. I guess you "erased everything that happened prior" with Sanchez. Awesome stuff.

 

Chip Kelly has never had an Oregon QB succeed as a starter in the NFL--so his offense was not very useful for QBs...the opposite, actually.

I am not claiming Sanchez is great by any means but his tenure with the Jets may not be the best way to evaluate him. He had hardly, if any, skill position players of note on offense and switched OCs several times. Perhaps with what they have in Philly he might show far more promise.

Edited November 5, 2014 by A Dog Named Kelso

[BigBuff423]

 

I meant watching him in NFL games on the Eagles. You know, for the seasons GMs may sour on guys. Every time I see him he doesn't impress me that much. But I haven't seen him a ton.

 

Fair question, but your original question was answered in all those comments / quotes and the QBR stats I provided. However, I can't say I've seen him "a ton" either, so I'm basing it on statistics, aforementioned scouting report coming out of college two years ago and the fact that he's had a rough half to this season, but a phenomenal one last year, Kelly's first season, and still has posted better numbers than any QB (Orton is the exception, for now) the BILLS have had in nearly 15 years....so to me, assuming nothing on Orton be it good or bad for the remainder of this season, Foles' promise would be too good to pass up unless Eagles want 3rd Round Draft pick or higher or if Foles tries to command elite QB money...otherwise, as I mentioned in an earlier response, paying Foles Fitz type money would seem to be a wise investment on the potential return....JMHO of course.

[mannc]

 

I am not claiming Sanchez is great by any means but his tenure with the Jets may not be the best way to evaluate him. He had hardly if any skill position players of note on offense and switched OCs several times. Perhaps with what they have in Philly he might show far more promise.

I agree. It's pretty obvious that Sanchez had worn out his welcome in NY and his confidence was shot. He has the physical tools and is still young for a QB. There is no reason he can't succeed in a new system.

[Deranged Rhino]

Fair question, but your original question was answered in all those comments / quotes and the QBR stats I provided. However, I can't say I've seen him "a ton" either, so I'm basing it on statistics, aforementioned scouting report coming out of college two years ago and the fact that he's had a rough half to this season, but a phenomenal one last year, Kelly's first season, and still has posted better numbers than any QB (Orton is the exception, for now) the BILLS have had in nearly 15 years....so to me, assuming nothing on Orton be it good or bad for the remainder of this season, Foles' promise would be too good to pass up unless Eagles want 3rd Round Draft pick or higher or if Foles tries to command elite QB money...otherwise, as I mentioned in an earlier response, paying Foles Fitz type money would seem to be a wise investment on the potential return....JMHO of course.

 

Foles's statistical season was largely a product of NFL defenses not having film on Kelly's offense. It had far less to do with Foles' abilities which are limited than it did Kelly's inventiveness. The adjustments made by defenses this year have stymied Foles more often than not. He's not the QB you think he his based on his stats. He really isn't.

[BigBuff423]

 

 

Foles's statistical season was largely a product of NFL defenses not having film on Kelly's offense. It had far less to do with Foles' abilities which are limited than it did Kelly's inventiveness. The adjustments made by defenses this year have stymied Foles more often than not. He's not the QB you think he his based on his stats. He really isn't.

 

And for someone who has watched more Foles than myself (based on previous post), I'll defer to your insight.

[mannc]

There is speculation that the Browns are open to offers for Manziel. I wonder if the Eagles are thinking about it. Kelly recruited JFF heavily in high school; in fact, he signed with U of O then backed out to go to A&M. He would seem to be well-suited to run Kelly's system.

[PromoTheRobot]

There is speculation that the Browns are open to offers for Manziel. I wonder if the Eagles are thinking about it. Kelly recruited JFF heavily in high school; in fact, he signed with U of O then backed out to go to A&M. He would seem to be well-suited to run Kelly's system.

Why would the Browns take something less than a #22 pick for Manziel? That would make him a wasted pick.

[mannc]

 

Why would the Browns take something less than a #22 pick for Manziel? That would make him a wasted pick.

Who said they would?

[BigBuff423]

Who said they would?

 

That would give the Browns 3 1st Round picks....wow!

[26CornerBlitz]

Why would the Browns take something less than a #22 pick for Manziel? That would make him a wasted pick.

 

They wasted it when they drafted him.

[NoSaint]

 

 

They wasted it when they drafted him.

 

IM not going down that road but will say holding him doesn't make it any less wasted if they have decided they don't like him

[YoloinOhio]

There is speculation that the Browns are open to offers for Manziel. I wonder if the Eagles are thinking about it. Kelly recruited JFF heavily in high school; in fact, he signed with U of O then backed out to go to A&M. He would seem to be well-suited to run Kelly's system.

listening to Ray Farmer's (awkward) press conf yesterday, it seemed pretty clear manziel was the future and they are preparing to move fwd without Hoyer. The media got the same impression.

[ALF]

The Bills should be ok with Orton and EJ thru next season. I would not favor Sanchez over Foles at this point . Schaub is another mystery.

[Cleveland Rocks?]

listening to Ray Farmer's (awkward) press conf yesterday, it seemed pretty clear manziel was the future and they are preparing to move fwd without Hoyer. The media got the same impression.

Yep and frankly, the timing was weird. The guy has to come out and try to win a game for you tomorrow.

[rsherman12]

I feel like the Browns and Bills are in similar situations. Mediocre/bad teams for the last decade, who are off to a good start this year with veteran qbs but also have young talent at the position. It looks like both teams are gonna try and make a playoff run and then work on developing the young qbs later.

[GunnerBill]

I think part of the answer as to why young QBs are getting less time is that the CBA means you are not tied to them by a huge contract.

[YoloinOhio]

I think part of the answer as to why young QBs are getting less time is that the CBA means you are not tied to them by a huge contract.

yep - and it's why Bradford got a ton of time. That guaranteed money.

[John from Riverside]

The TEAM was pretty good. http://www.nfl.com/p...z/79858/profile EJ sucks to some Bills fans and he had 6 tds and 3 ints. Sanchez went to a title game completing 53% of his pass with 12 tds and 20 ints.

 

I think Sanchez will do well. But it's why it's dumb to make rash decisions on young QBs and why coaching matters so much. Put your players in good situations and not try to force them into "your system."

 

If you think about it (I know some will disagree) signing Kyle Orton might be the best thing that could have happened for EJ Manuel

 

- Orton isnt the long term solution (by long term I mean.....probably no more the 3 years)

- EJ Manuel was a project........he is in a rookie QB contract........they sat him but didnt bring in another QB so he is the backup

 

The bills might NOT elect to go after another QB and cut ties with EJ Manuel....they might decide to given Orton an extension....let EJ hold the clipboard....then maybe down the line EJ gets another chance

[GunnerBill]

yep - and it's why Bradford got a ton of time. That guaranteed money.

 

Correct. Bradford has also played better than the guys listed earlier (Sanchez, Gabbert, Locker etc) on the odd occasion he has stayed healthy. But if the big contract wasn't there I think every chance that Fisher would have moved on when he arrived in St Louis.

[Captain Hindsight]

There is speculation that the Browns are open to offers for Manziel. I wonder if the Eagles are thinking about it. Kelly recruited JFF heavily in high school; in fact, he signed with U of O then backed out to go to A&M. He would seem to be well-suited to run Kelly's system.

If they are open to offers it means Manziel is worse than they thought. Because Hoyer is hardly lighting up the league right now

[Orton's Arm]

And Sanchez was awful before. Chip Kelly is a beast. I completely underrated him.

 

> Chip Kelly is a beast.

 

You speak the truth. I really wanted him as the Bills' head coach, and was very disappointed when we chose Marrone instead.

 

If Foles can't succeed with Kelly as his coach, he's very unlikely to succeed under Hackett's tutelage.

 

However, Manuel's supporters should not take heart from that. Manuel cannot throw the ball accurately or read the field well. As brilliant a coach as Kelly is, he isn't an alchemist. He's not going to take a quarterback with weaknesses like those and make him look like Joe Montana.

[Bills Fan since '64]

I'd rather get a couple more seasons out of Orton

[Buffalo Barbarian]

According to the Newark Star-Ledger, the Eagles GM "soured" on Nick Foles prior to his injury and said, "The organization isn't sold that he's the guy going forward. Let's just say the way things were going, he wasn't going to get a contract extension that's for sure". The report went on to say that next year Foles will be entering his final season in his Rookie contract from 2012.

 

This is *NOT*, and I repeat *NOT*, intended to be a hijacked thread about how "EJ sucks", but rather an evaluation of improving a very important position, regardless of who mans the QB position unless it were someone of Luck, Rodgers, Brees, Brady, Manning ilk. Would you be opposed or for the acquisition of Foles, assuming the report on the GM's "soured" take is true? If the Eagles were willing to trade Foles, what Draft pick and / or player would you give? If he was strictly a FA because of being cut after the season, would want to sign him and how much money would you be prepared to extend to him?

 

Personally, assuming the Eagles didn't require more than a 4th round selection, I would certainly trade for him regardless. If he was a FA, I would be prepared to give him good to decent money, in the $10-12 million per year range for 4 to 5 years. To me, Foles is a very good QB that could be fantastic and it would certainly answer the QB position for quite some time.

 

Please understand, I'm not suggesting the Eagles will trade him or that they will cut him, or that if they did trade him they would accept compensation in the form of a 4th Round pick. The point of this post, is that according to some real reporting, the Eagles GM may have already moved on from Foles and I send it out into the TBD cyber-sphere to discuss if he is a QB us fans would like to see in a BILLS uniform, and if so what price or compensation would you be willing to give in order to obtain his services at Quarterback.....

 

if the their GM doesn't like him that much then pick him up when he is a FA.

[26CornerBlitz]

Chip Kelly on report Eagles souring on Foles: ‘I control the roster’

[buffaloboyinATL]

Does anyone remember the TSW infatuation with Kirk Cousins?

 

Report: Eagles had soured on Foles before his injury

the best thing that can happen for some of these highly touted backup QB's is that they get a big FA contract from someone based on one or two appearances, before they get real playing time and are exposed for what they really are. Back-up QB's.

[26CornerBlitz]

the best thing that can happen for some of these highly touted backup QB's is that they get a big FA contract from someone based on one or two appearances, before they get real playing time and are exposed for what they really are. Back-up QB's.

 

That's exactly how it played out when RJ got his big contract from the Bills.

[johnwalter]

"Foles: GM "Soured" On QB Before Injury"

 

the way this thread was titled makes it seem as if the source who leaked this information was Nick Foles himself!

[BillsFan-4-Ever]

Eagles' Kelly rips 'souring' report, backs Foles