Marv Levy [gets no respect]

[Max Fischer]

As the Bills enter a new season trying to break the umpteenth year streak without a playoff appearance, I continue to be dumbfounded by the comments some fans make about Marv Levy.

 

I could throw around words like "disrespect" or question whether anyone who downplays his fantastic contributions to the Bills could still be a real fan.

 

I could rattle off word after word listing his tremendous accomplishments. For example, in the 90 year history of pro football, the Hall of Fame has only inducted 21 coaches. 21. And only two who became a head coach after Levy (Joe Gibbs and Bill Walsh).

 

Instead, I will say why I love the guy. It's simply because he makes me proud to be a Bills fan. Fans talk a lot about winning a Super Bowl before they die, I hope Marv gets to see it as well.

 

 

 

 

[mrags]

Fwiw, a few years ago I posted the accomplishments of the other HOF head coaches and Marvs were pretty much dead last. Just saying. His record is if not the worst, the 2nd worst as far as wins is concerned and he's never gotten a SB trophy, unlike every other coach in the Hall except for 1 or 2 but thier winning %s are among the best in history. No disrespect, he is what he is. An above average coach that had a huge supporting cast from the GM all the way down to his players. If Marv could have grounded them for the few weeks leading up to the SBs we probably would have won 1 or 2. Even Cornelius Bennett when he was there with the Falcons made comments in the media about how the Bills players were all living up the party life when they should have been outcoached. I lovearv and everything he's done but he lost us games because he couldn't keep his millionaire prima donnas in check.

 

He was a pretty damn good coach. We can leave it at that. But he's no BB, Shula, Parcells or Gibb that's for sure. He might be one of the best we've had, but that doesn't mean we need to kiss the guys feet. That's all.

 

I will admit that he makes me proud tobbe a Bills fan and I do wish he is able tobexperience it as well before he enters the tunnel for the last time.

Edited September 2, 2012 by mrags

[BillnutinHouston]

In my view, the Super Bowl is the purest test of coaching ability since in most years there are two weeks to prepare for the game. Marv was 0-4. In his stint as GM, Marv took on a role he didn't want as a favor to Ralph. This speaks favorably to his character, but not so much for his judgement.

[phillyrich]

In my humble opinion, Marv set this franchise back about 4 - 5 years when he was GM. He should have turned down Ralph for the GM spot. The countless draft blunders still make me sick to my stomach - 2006 Donte Whitner when Haloti Ngata was available; trading up to draft the DT from NC State (Forgot his name already); 2007 not trading up to draft either Adrian Peterson or Patrick Willis. Just awful.

 

We can say what we want with Buddy's 2010 draft, but Marv Levy tarnished his career with the GM job he did.

[PearlHowardman]

Even Cornelius Bennett when he was there with the Falcons made comments in the media about how the Bills players were all living up the party life when they should have been outcoached.

 

The players were unmanagable a-holes. Jim Kelly was the biggest one. I feel bad not only for Marv Levy but for Bill Polian and Ralph Wilson for having these egotistical jerks on their team. The Bills should have won SB XXV by a score of 38-20 if the team had grown ups playing the game.

 

Re: Marv Levy as GM. This was all Ralph Wilson's idea. Wilson dragged Marv from retirement to do him a favor.

[fbzh2]

Fwiw, a few years ago I posted the accomplishments of the other HOF head coaches and Marvs were pretty much dead last. Just saying. His record is if not the worst, the 2nd worst as far as wins is concerned and he's never gotten a SB trophy, unlike every other coach in the Hall except for 1 or 2 but thier winning %s are among the best in history. No disrespect, he is what he is. An above average coach that had a huge supporting cast from the GM all the way down to his players. If Marv could have grounded them for the few weeks leading up to the SBs we probably would have won 1 or 2. Even Cornelius Bennett when he was there with the Falcons made comments in the media about how the Bills players were all living up the party life when they should have been outcoached. I lovearv and everything he's done but he lost us games because he couldn't keep his millionaire prima donnas in check.

 

He was a pretty damn good coach. We can leave it at that. But he's no BB, Shula, Parcells or Gibb that's for sure. He might be one of the best we've had, but that doesn't mean we need to kiss the guys feet. That's all.

 

I will admit that he makes me proud tobbe a Bills fan and I do wish he is able tobexperience it as well before he enters the tunnel for the last time.

 

I agree, this is true. Also, Jimbo and the boys were too free to party and chase before the biggest game of their life.

[dollars 2 donuts]

I don't know why nobody talks about the fact that we quite possibly could've won one of those Super Bowls if we would've had an oversized noseguard imposing his will on the other team. I always thought Jeff Wright was too small for what this team needed. This is especially true when you consider the book ends of his career, Fred Smerlas and Ted Washington.

[Mango]

Marg Levy is a better leader of men than anything else.

[Philly McButterpants]

My holiday weekend is ruined. Another Whitner<Ngata post. Give it a f'in rest.

[PearlHowardman]

Jimbo and the boys were too free to party and chase before the biggest game of their life.

 

This is THE reason why we lost SB XXV.

 

I've always felt that the NFL Hall Of Fame committee that voted Marv Levy in to the HOF realized that they were finally giving him the Ring that his 1990-1991 Buffalo Bills players denied him when they lost SB XXV due to their player partying in Tampa excesses.

Edited September 2, 2012 by PearlHowardman

[mike6683]

I think Marv got in partially on the fact that the 4 Superbowls were consecutive. Here's a question i there any head coaches not in the HOF who have lead their team to 4 Superbowls win or lose?

[RJ (not THAT RJ)]

This is THE reason why we lost SB XXV.

 

I've always felt that the NFL Hall Of Fame committee that voted Marv Levy in to the HOF realized that they were finally giving him the Ring that his 1990-1991 Buffalo Bills players denied him when they lost SB XXV due to their player partying in Tampa excesses.

 

Please please my friends, stop with the "they partied and lost" meme. That is pure hindsight. The Raiders won three super bowls with partiers, and indeed when Oakland beat Philly in SB XV in New Orleans, the hindsight meme was, "the Raiders were loose because they were on Bourbon Street while Dick Vermeil had the uptight Iggles on lockdown." Hell, one famous pic from Tampa was Kelly partying with Lawrence Taylor! They lost for many reasons; partying was way down the list, and was brought up by people like Biscuit in retrospect.

[Beerball]

This is THE reason why we lost SB XXV.

 

I've always felt that the NFL Hall Of Fame committee that voted Marv Levy in to the HOF realized that they were finally giving him the Ring that his 1990-1991 Buffalo Bills players denied him when they lost SB XXV due to their player partying in Tampa excesses.

Under another HC perhaps that wouldn't have happened? Marv was a good guy and a decent HC but he never got the best from those teams because he never demanded it. There is a reason why teams have coaches, somebody has to lead, set the tone for the organization.

 

Marv did less with more as a HC.

[actionjackson1231]

It's because of Levy that we even have fred jackson on our team. Very thankful for that lol

[Jim in Anchorage]

Why is not Bud Grant in the HOF? Same as Marv, 4 SB's. Plus he was a cool ass duck hunter. not a prissy butt egghead like Marv.

[dwight in philly]

i loved marv as the bills head coach, but obviously not enamored with his time as GM. i agree with the poster that his drafts during his GM tenure set the franchise back, as covered numerous times on here, the trading of pick(s) to land mccargo has to rank as one of the all-time draft blunders of the bills(and there have been many). again, while liking the guy, he projected a persona of being consumed with wanting to be the "smartest guy in the room". i am in no way saying that fans have all the answers, but he seemed to make decisions that ran counter to common sense just to show the fans that he knew better.

Edited September 2, 2012 by dwight in philly

[Best Player Available]

This is THE reason why we lost SB XXV.

 

I've always felt that the NFL Hall Of Fame committee that voted Marv Levy in to the HOF realized that they were finally giving him the Ring that his 1990-1991 Buffalo Bills players denied him when they lost SB XXV due to their player partying in Tampa excesses.

 

Give it a rest. You have posted the same insane dribble for 24 hours now. We hear ya.You act like you were there. You were not. Also, the Giants were not locked in their rooms eating cornflakes. That is for sure.

 

If you want to sell hearsay, here's something to consider. The Raiders were doing blow on the sidelines when they won a super bowl. No, those tubes were not full of nasal decongestants. Marv, had his butt handed to him by parcells. He was out coached. He also hands down had the best team in the NFL that year. he couldn't get the job done.

 

That said, Marv is the 2nd best coach ever of the Bills. he has my respect along with the players of those teams.

 

In other news, Babe Ruth got drunk before big games.

[mrags]

That said, Marv is the 2nd best coach ever of the Bills. he has my respect along with the players of those teams.

I Will agree with this statement.

[MARCELL DAREUS POWER]

horrible gm, solid coach with great talent from polian... jmo

 

imho, hes not a hof coach, but very solid. its analagous to saying phil hansen should be in the hof...

[Max Fischer]

I hope this is the loud, obnoxious minority.

Edited September 2, 2012 by Max Fischer

[Bill from NYC]

I hope this is the loud, obnoxious minority.

 

Max, as you well know, this board does not only consist of pom-pom waving. my team right or wrong, homers ( this is NOT a reference to you). This board, at least for me, is about dialogue. Expecting everybody in this thread to hold Levy in the highest esteem is unrealistic.

Marv is a smart man, and he did a good job soothing the egos of superstars.But, as he gained power with the departure of Polian, the team went down. Instead of looking to replace aging stars, he focused on defensive backs. When he took over as GM, he was even worse. He set back this franchise a very long way as soon as he arrived, with Jauron in tow, in 2006.

Marv was more of a figurehead than a football man. He got the Bills to the SB 4 years in a row. This is something to be lauded, their talent level notwithstanding. But as a coach, he doesn't measure up to the true greats.

And as a GM, he is to be likened to Rich Kotite. He was truly pathetic.

Edited September 2, 2012 by Bill from NYC

[Garion]

Put me in the (apparently small in this thread) groupr of Bills fans who think Marv is our favorite Bill of all time.

 

I get the counter arguments above but is there anyone else who could have managed the personalities of those bickering bills and meld them into a veteran mutually supporting team? Bruce/Kelly/Thurman in particular could have been major personality problems on man other teams.

 

Marv's eloquent devotion to the best of sportsmanship, and the historical context of the game (including quite literally history) is still inspiring to me.

 

Those bills teams had incredibly consistent excellence (until the superbow of course) that really has only very rarely been matched even by other HoF coaches.

 

While I don't think he's a great GM again if we are going to damn him for Whitner give him credit for Jackson (and Johnson maybe?) The issue though when he came in was Wilson flailing around trying to find someone to fill a gap -as the fitful process of hiring Chan showed Buffalo is not a landing spot most folks in the NFL will willingly go.

 

I'd rather have had Marv and that collection of 90's Bills than Jimmy Johnson/Jerry Jones and that group of 90's Cowboys. I'm proud to be a Bills fan I don't think I could have been proud of that Cowboys team - which were a reflection of their coach and owner.

 

 

 

[mrags]

horrible gm, solid coach with great talent from polian... jmo

 

imho, hes not a hof coach, but very solid. its analagous to saying phil hansen should be in the hof...

Very Nicely done. Another very good statement.

[RuntheDamnBall]

I don't know how someone who has been the face of the franchise, has made the Hall of Fame, and was given a job he was not capable of performing can rightly be said to get no respect. He gets plenty of respect, and in the case of getting hired as GM, it happened specifically to "put a respectable face" on a bad front office, regardless of his ability to run the team's affairs.

 

Marv was a fine coach for his era of the NFL, and his Super Bowl record is enough to inform us that he wasn't even close to the best.

 

You can't run with "He's a Hall of Famer" as a reason why he should be respected. He was elected as a sign of respect for his on-field achievements, but that distinction doesn't add to those achievements nor does it remove from question some of his failures.

 

I love Marv; I really do. He was an uncommonly smart man and a well-rounded individual who corralled a group with a lot of differences and took them very far. But he never won the big one and he did tarnish his reputation with his work in the front office. Yes, he brought in Fred Jackson and was part of a team that made some decent draft picks, but you can't describe the Bills during his tenure as being in anything but a holding pattern. They went nowhere when he was supposed to bring stability. He was too trusting of Dick Jauron. His drafts were defined by average DBs and a flashy-but-problematic RB when the team's real needs were visible to any casual observer.

 

So, these are the reasons why Marv's legacy is a mixed one. As a coach he was very good at some things, and in the discussion for being the best. But he didn't do enough in multiple chances to define his team as the very best, and that - in addition to his tenure as GM - is the reason that people will continue to question that legacy.

[hondo in seattle]

Think of Michael Jordan. Do we remember him in his prime? Or how he played in his Wizards comeback?

 

I choose remember Marv in his prime as Head Coach rather than his failed comeback as GM.

 

Those who think it was Polian and whoever who built up the Bills and Marv had nothing to do with it are misinformed. Certainly, ex Bills players remember Marv much differently. So do the Hall of Fame electors, who know more about the NFL than the vast majority of posters here. They know how hard it is to get any team into the SB four years in a row. Just think of all the great coaches who never accomplished this. There's a reason Marv was elected to the HOF.

 

There's some truth in the idea that Kellly, Thurman, Smith, Reed, etc. made Marv job's easier and made him look good. But it's also true that Marv brought out the best in his players. I can easily imagine any of these players (minus perhaps Bruce), playing in another era on the Bills with another head coach and not having a HOF career.

 

Was Thurman really that much better than FredEx? Was Reed really better than Moulds? It's almost blasphemous to ask these questions because Thurman and Reed are legends who piled up great stats and led us into the playoffs under Marv's direction. If Marv had FredEx and Moulds back then, they would have accumulated much better numbers than they did in fact. And their legacies would have been different. FredEx and Moulds would not have been just Pro Bowlers under Marv, they would have been Super Bowlers. (Fortunately, it's not too late for FredEx to have that experience).

 

Marv may not have the best W-L record of the HOF coaches. Point taken. But he was twice tasked to turn around franchises with little talent and terrible records. Even Vince Lombardi would have needed some time (seasons with poor records) in those circumstances.

 

Maybe the people who blast Marv are just too young to remember how truly pathetic the Bills were before his arrival. As someone who lived through the years of fultlity pre-Marve, I can only love the guy for what he did. The last few years of Bills mediocrity are nothing to the years of abject misery that came before Marv. In DJ's worse full year, he won 7 games. In the 2.5 years before Marv took over mid-season, the Bills had just total 6 wins. DJ's 7 wins per season would have been a welcome relief back in those days when we averaged 2 wins per season. Marv took this horrible team to the playoffs 8 times and the Super Bowl 4 times. More importantly, he made us proud to be Buffalonians and proud to be Bills fans.

[BillyBaroo]

I loved Marv as a coach - but as GM he made Tom Dohanhoe look like a genius.

[Rico]

The day he was hired as GM was the day the Bills jumped the shark... such a disaster, even the Meathead knew better & bailed out. But once/if the Bills finally at least win a play-off game or two, I don't think his legacy will be quite so tarnished.

[hondo in seattle]

Marv did FAR more than manage egos! He also did a great job of preparing the team during the off- and pre-season. He was tactically smart (though not in the elite in that regard). His players played hard from the 1st Quarter than the last. They didn't mail-it in. You would see Kelly and WRs blocking for the RBs, for example. And Marv instilled in the team a never-surrender attitude that was exhibited in other games besides The Comeback. And, btw, the Bills won The Comeback without Thurman and Kelly. They wouldn't have won that game if Marv hadn't been the coach.

 

Sadly, it's true that "as GM he made Tom Dohanhoe look like a genius" as Billy observes. But I'm willing to look past that. Marv is kind of like the kindly uncle who gives you some really crappy Xmas presents as he gets old and single. But I still appreciate him for the great Xmas presents he gave me before.

[RuntheDamnBall]

Think of Michael Jordan. Do we remember him in his prime? Or how he played in his Wizards comeback?

I think it's more like Isaiah Thomas - great player (not the best) in his prime, really flawed in his later jobs.

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

For about six years starting in 1988 (the year they lost to Cinn in playoffs) they were the best team in the AFC and probably the only better team than the Bills was Dallas the last couple of years and Washington just had one amazing season. The Bill's never won a SB though over that team

 

I've always felt with a better coach they likely would have won one of them. I also also felt that Marvs somewha easy going methods was the only reason they were able to get back to four in a row. Make JJ the head coach and they never get to all four, but I would have gladly traded Marv for JJ to coach that one game.

 

Some peopel feel they should have won more than one, purely on talent I agree, but If they had won one of them, as loose as that team was (and not in a good way) they never would have even made it back to the SB the next season. Likely the team would have imploded.

[Max Fischer]

 

I think it's more like Isaiah Thomas - great player (not the best) in his prime, really flawed in his later jobs.

 

It's a sin to compare Marv Levy to Isiah Thomas in any way, other than they both worked in sports.

[benderbender]

Sorry, i refuse to attach 100% blame to Levy for his GM tenure when Ralph Wilson begged him to do the organization one last favor. And suddenly everyone forgets RW's meddling and miserly ways.

 

I see Bellicheat getting more respect despite the fact that he had more

control and an owner that opened the checkbook and was hands off in personell decisions. Maybe if Levy had that and spies, we would be having a different discussion.

[Dragonborn10]

He was outcoached in the most important game in modern Buffalo history. He was abysmal as a GM. Please don't go there with the figure head arguement. He was the GM and if he was not ultimately responsible for the decisions made then that is his problem. His best skill seems to have been ego management. Maybe this was him or it was others in the locker room. We may never know. But while he was HC they went from the Bickering Bills to four SuperBowls. In my mind those teams were Bill Polian's teams not Marv Levy's teams. When RW dies, the team is moved, and the history of the Bills is written, the most important figures will be RW, Bill Polian, OJ Simpson, and Lou Saban.

[MARCELL DAREUS POWER]

" thats a chicken call" " oh hes an idiot the guy" lmao

[Kelly the Dog]

Things are not black and white. Marv was tremendous at certain things, and he lacked in other important things. The fact remains though that he is a Hall of Fame coach. Polian, whom a lot of people give the credit to instead of Marv, absolutely loved Marv and gives him an enormous amount of credit for those teams and years, and he is not the blowing smoke up your ass type, he'd rather take credit himself. Kelly, Thurman, Reed, Bruce, Bennett, Talley, etc, to a man absolutely love Marv and it's not the Jauron type of player's coach love that has nothing to do with coaching. They credit him with motivating them and keeping them together and leading them into battle, and he did it great.

 

To me, he was loyal to a fault. I personally blame Marv for not having a better DC and for not firing Walt Corey when he should have. Corey, to me, was the reason the Bills lost those Super Bowls more than anything. He had as many or more stars on defense as Marchobroda did on offense and yet he never got the most out of them. Marv needs to be accountable for that and it was his major mistake and fault. If he would have hired, say, Wade earlier, we would have been a much better team.

 

Yes, he was probably out-coached in the first Super Bowl, but the fact remains that what is the difference between Norwood missing a 47 yard FG with no time left and Vinateri making a 47 yard FG with no time left? Does that make Marv a loser and Bellichick a winner? Some would argue yes, it's scoreboard. I'm not so sure.

 

I also think the Bills were great partly because of that partying the stars did. That's what those guys were like. They were very capable of playing that way. They were not any different in Tampa than they were in Buffalo the week before when they won the AFC Championship 51-3. The Giants year, also, was the only year they were the best team of the four. That is the game they should have won, and if Norwood gets 10 tries at it, he hits 7-8 of those 10. He just missed.

[thewildrabbit]

Man 0 Man, I'm sick up and fed of hearing about all the partying before the SB's, the Raiders partied all night and still won theirs.

 

My take is Marv levy is a great man, and was a great HC and a supreme motivator! I'm happy the Bills went to 4 SB's. They should have won that first SB, curse Bill Parcells and his genius DC Bill Belichick That bastage BB is still haunting us Bills fans.

 

Detroit, Cleveland, Jacksonville, and Houston still haven't gone to a SB!

 

Only 18 teams have actually won a SB, out of 32. Losers, Chargers 1-Titans 1-Seahawks 1-Falcons 1- Panthers1- Cardinals 1- Bengals 2 - Eagles 2- Vikings 4- Bills 4

[spartacus]

Things are not black and white. Marv was tremendous at certain things, and he lacked in other important things. The fact remains though that he is a Hall of Fame coach. Polian, whom a lot of people give the credit to instead of Marv, absolutely loved Marv and gives him an enormous amount of credit for those teams and years, and he is not the blowing smoke up your ass type, he'd rather take credit himself. Kelly, Thurman, Reed, Bruce, Bennett, Talley, etc, to a man absolutely love Marv and it's not the Jauron type of player's coach love that has nothing to do with coaching. They credit him with motivating them and keeping them together and leading them into battle, and he did it great.

 

To me, he was loyal to a fault. I personally blame Marv for not having a better DC and for not firing Walt Corey when he should have. Corey, to me, was the reason the Bills lost those Super Bowls more than anything. He had as many or more stars on defense as Marchobroda did on offense and yet he never got the most out of them. Marv needs to be accountable for that and it was his major mistake and fault. If he would have hired, say, Wade earlier, we would have been a much better team.

 

Yes, he was probably out-coached in the first Super Bowl, but the fact remains that what is the difference between Norwood missing a 47 yard FG with no time left and Vinateri making a 47 yard FG with no time left? Does that make Marv a loser and Bellichick a winner? Some would argue yes, it's scoreboard. I'm not so sure.

 

I also think the Bills were great partly because of that partying the stars did. That's what those guys were like. They were very capable of playing that way. They were not any different in Tampa than they were in Buffalo the week before when they won the AFC Championship 51-3. The Giants year, also, was the only year they were the best team of the four. That is the game they should have won, and if Norwood gets 10 tries at it, he hits 7-8 of those 10. He just missed.

 

agree that Walt Corey was a boob -total fail by Marv to not fire that him

 

 

however, Norwood's range was 40 yards

any kick over that was an adventure

[RuntheDamnBall]

 

I think it's more like Isaiah Thomas - great player (not the best) in his prime, really flawed in his later jobs.

 

 

It's a sin to compare Marv Levy to Isiah Thomas in any way, other than they both worked in sports.

If I were comparing the two as human beings you might be onto something there. I could as easily argue that it's total folly to compare him to one of the top 5 athletes of all time.

[rcatty]

Marv as coach can best be told by this true story, as told to me by a closer than close NFL insider. In the Bills first Super Bowl, the Giants decided that they would give the Bills the ground game but take away Kelly's passing game. The Giants believed that Kelly would be too egotistical to take what was given to him (the ground game), in deference to scoring big with passing. The insider told me that if the Bills chose to run the ball it would have been game over for the Giants. The Bills would have been able to control the clock, and keep the ball away from the Giants offense. That was their plan, and it was based on Kelly throwing the ball. Furthermore, I was also told that Marv should have known that wide right would not have worked from that distance on grass.

 

I cannot identify or further describe who the insider is due to confidentiality, but suffice it to say he knew the exact plan.

[MyHorseAteTheKid]

I think Marv was a great coach and as a Bills fan, I haven't had a lot to cheer about since he retired... When he was walking the sidelines it always felt like the team had a chance to succeed.