Mr. WEO Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 All he is saying is to give Nix and Gailey a chance to right the ship. Everyone is so mad about the last twelve years but its been 4 different regimes. It's only year #2 for Nix and Gailey, not 12. PTR Predictably and intentionally missing the point. Obviously you don't see the irony of the bolded statement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RealityCheck Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 Some people will vent, some will stop buying tickets and some will stop watching altogether. It depends on how fed up the person is. It's been 12 years and RW says we need to be patient. That's the thing that you should be laughing at, not the Ralph haters. I actually laugh at the RW kiss a%5es on this board who defend him no matter what. He's the one constant thru the years with this inept, poor excuse of an organization. He's the reason they suck so bad year after year. He threw the only great GM this tean has ever had out the door. Then he pushed John Butler out. No decent coach would ever come to this laughing stock of an organization. What will all you Ralph kiss a%&es say about him after he passes and leaves the team to be sold to the highest bidder? Ralph only cares about positioning this team to be sold to the highest bidder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H2o Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 Blackmon? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmur66 Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 Nothing makes me laugh like the Ralph hate that appears on this board. For all of you guys that are out of patience, just what exactly are you gonna do about it? The same thing I have been doing. Nothing. I have not spent one penny on Bills tickets in many years. The few games I have went to I had free tickets. Ol Ralphie won't be seeing any of my cash. I even bought a counterfit 99 jersey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
May Day 10 Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 Who are the top tight ends who don't get hurt and runners in this year's draft? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hammered a Lot Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 Nothing makes me laugh like the Ralph hate that appears on this board. For all of you guys that are out of patience, just what exactly are you gonna do about it? This season I dropped 4 season tickets and after 25 years I might drop my last 2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbringer Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 (edited) Ralph Wilson reminds me of an old boss of mine. Ralph is direct and to the point. But his point is usually a good one. I agree that it will take time to build this into a contender. Ralph said earlier in the year that he was "shocked" at the success of the Bills. At the time I thought he was being too negative. I was wrong - he was right. The only disagreement I have is when he said it would take several years to rebuild the franchise. 2012 is the third year in this experiment. We should start to see some improvement by then. If Cincinnati can do it, so can Buffalo. Edited December 23, 2011 by dbringer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RealityCheck Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 The same thing I have been doing. Nothing. I have not spent one penny on Bills tickets in many years. The few games I have went to I had free tickets. Ol Ralphie won't be seeing any of my cash. I even bought a counterfit 99 jersey. Good for you. We vote every day with how we spend our money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewildrabbit Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 (edited) "We've got to get receivers. If he hasn't gotten anybody to throw to, he's not going to win many games," Wilson said. "We think he's a good quarterback, and we're going to stick with him and get him some better players, get him some runners, some tight ends that don't get injured and some wide receivers and we'll be OK." I don't suppose that "Marshawn Lynch" who is doing great with the Seahawks ( #8 RB overall, 1000+ yards 11TD's) or Lee Evans, (who will get his chance to shine now with Bolden injured) should be considered RB's or WR's. two former #1 picks traded for a pair of 4ths. Just think, whatever WR-RB-TE they draft # 1 this year will be on the trading block in 5 years. #1 pick Donte Whitner gone, and now playing for a top five D in SF ! Poz gone, and now playing for a top 5 D in Jacksonville. #1 pick Maybin gone and now playing on a top #7 D, doing well with the hated Jets. WTH good is it to have patience when this club keeps jettisoning its top picks and talent ?? refuses to hire top coaches to get the best out of its players so players like Maybin are NOT completely wasted in Buffalo. So tell me, wtf good is having patience with a team in which everyone in the organization has no effing clue how to do their job!! Save the yes men who are responsible for ticket sales, as they will make up any rumor they can to fill the stadium WR's RB's TE's, and no talk of better protection for a man who has difficulty taking 3 step drop backs because he has no time to throw.... For the love of God it would be great at some point for Fitz to be able to take 5-7 step drops like the most other teams in the NFL, but I suppose that won't happen in this owners (Ralph Wilson's) lifetime Edited December 23, 2011 by Fear the Beard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KD in CA Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 Blackmon? If he's there, otherwise it'll be Alshon Jeffery and you can wave goodbye to Steve Johnson. It'll be a classic Bills running-in-place move. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry Jone's Toupee Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 It sucks getting old. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gavin in Va Beach Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 F you Ralph. Sell the g-d team already. :finger: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
May Day 10 Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 This whole operation sucks and needs to be blown up. It. Wont until rw is no longer the owner. This guy is making judgements and decisions as a barely lucid 93 year old. He speaks like he is the only one who has a clue, while fans, local media, national media, former bills players who have gone elsewhere don't have any knowledge. The attitude he still has is a macro view of the team. Even at 93 can't he just say and think things like: 'we think we have the start of a good core, we are going to try to find the missing pieces and depth. In order to afford the extra salary, rogers is buying a game a year at a premium.' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BUFFALOTONE Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 F you Ralph. Sell the g-d team already. :finger: +1 My yard will thank you Ralph.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob in STL Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 (edited) Worst part of Ralphs quote was this. "We've got to get receivers. If he hasn't gotten anybody to throw to, he's not going to win many games," Wilson said. "We think he's a good quarterback, and we're going to stick with him and get him some better players, get him some runners, some tight ends that don't get injured and some wide receivers and we'll be OK." TEs that don't get injured? How about a TE that is not a 7th round picks, or a UDFAs, or off the waiver wire? Get some recievers? This is the front office that preferred Donald Jones over Lee Evans because they wanted to "see what their players can do". They brought in Ruvell Martin when Parish got hurt. Nice move there. Some runners? - We had Lynch, Jackson and Spiller two years ago - how about some blockers? What about Fitz himself? What have we seen in his arm strength and accuracy to be convinced he is good QB? Edited December 23, 2011 by Bob in STL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach Tuesday Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 I don't know why everyone is getting so worked up about his "observations" about personnel - it's clear from his comments that he has no idea what he's talking about, and probably has nothing to do anymore with specific personnel decisions (and appropriately so). What bugs me is the timetable - it's clear he's in no hurry to spend money to fix this thing, even though he's about to pocket another bag of cash from the Toronto extension. This whole thing is a scam. If you buy tickets for this product, you've been scammed. Frankly, if your elected officials let your tax dollars go into this product, you're being scammed. This is just a shade less corrupt than a Bulgarian state-run operation. You pay into something in part by choice - relying on misrepresentations - and in part because you're compelled to. You get nothing in return, and Ralph gets richer. Stop tolerating it - stop buying tickets, and tell your politicians you're fed up. Frankly you have very little to lose. If the team moves, so be it - better that than more of this crooked cronyistic failure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muffmonster Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 Is it possible Ralph misunderstood the question, and when referring to patience, he was stating his favorite Guns N Roses ballad? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apuszczalowski Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 Nothing makes me laugh like the Ralph hate that appears on this board. For all of you guys that are out of patience, just what exactly are you gonna do about it? They are going to kick & scream and B*t*h & moan about how easy it is to build a playoff team in one offseason, and how Ralph is only out to make money off of the poor poor fans of Buffalo who don't deserve what they are getting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach Tuesday Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 They are going to kick & scream and B*t*h & moan about how easy it is to build a playoff team in one offseason, and how Ralph is only out to make money off of the poor poor fans of Buffalo who don't deserve what they are getting. Honestly man, here is what you should do: go to your bank, tell them you'd like to empty all of your accounts, and have them make out a check to Ralph Wilson, Jr. for the full amount. Then send it to him with a Christmas card. It will save you the trouble of having to make multiple payments to him over time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordio Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 The way the NFL is setup you can rebuild a team rather quickly if your willing to bring in top flight coaches & a GM that know what he is doing & are willing to spend money. The bills have none of this. They have a GM that noone wanted who has 1 foot out the door thinking of retirement, they have coaches that noone wanted, they have beancounters making critical football decisions & they have an owner that refuses to open up his checkbook. Seriously wilson, your time has come, sell the fuggin team. If that means the team moves then so be it. The way the Bills are run now, it is like they are not even part of the NFL. They are like a minor league franchise for the rest of the teams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobChalmers Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 I thought he meant fast receiver I'm sure he did mean fast WR's. We have exactly zero right now who can make it through half a season. People here can be serious jerks though. Let's assume for their sake Ralph Wilson meant a HS girls' 4x100 relay team Fitz can coach after thay cut him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ieatcrayonz Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 If it was not the holiday season, I would comment on Ralph's health status and where I wish it turn..... You already said it. You simply did not type the words. No class. I have as much or more respect for old people than anyone, but let's face it, they can be easily fooled by treasurers who happened to be listed ABOVE the CEO on the team org chart. You shouldn't wish ill on someone because they are old and have been fooled by the team treasurer into thinking things that are simply not true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RkFast Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 Im convinced Ralph is pulling a "Rachel Phelps." Worst owner in pro sports....or at least in the top 5. He wont be seeing a dime of my money. Not one dime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewildrabbit Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 Honestly man, here is what you should do: go to your bank, tell them you'd like to empty all of your accounts, and have them make out a check to Ralph Wilson, Jr. for the full amount. Then send it to him with a Christmas card. It will save you the trouble of having to make multiple payments to him over time. Relax man, he is probably just one of "CodeMonkey's" people! As CM pointed out, those are the people who are scared to death that RW will move the team if he stops buying season tickets or merchandise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toshiero Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 Really? Patience you wanna talk patience? Patience I mean cmon man its only ben 12 years that we have been "statring from scratch". i hate that old man period. fire away Ralph, please shut up. Until this team is sold to a new owner I don't want to hear **** from the Bills front office. Ralphs arrogance and the way he takes advantage of the great local Bills fans pisses me off beyond belief! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hammered a Lot Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 I hear Ralph's a huge fan. You won't be able to get it out of your head. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pEzuC5UoM8g Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordio Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 Im convinced Ralph is pulling a "Rachel Phelps." Worst owner in pro sports....or at least in the top 5. He wont be seeing a dime of my money. Not one dime. You know I am not a big conspiracy guy but this is starting to play out like that movie except instead of winning the pennant the bills will be stuck in the basement of their division. Get the fan base so disgusted with the team that when they do move it will not be such a bad blow to the community. FU Wilson you greedy old bastard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apuszczalowski Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 "We've got to get receivers. If he hasn't gotten anybody to throw to, he's not going to win many games," Wilson said. "We think he's a good quarterback, and we're going to stick with him and get him some better players, get him some runners, some tight ends that don't get injured and some wide receivers and we'll be OK." I don't suppose that "Marshawn Lynch" who is doing great with the Seahawks ( #8 RB overall, 1000+ yards 11TD's) or Lee Evans, (who will get his chance to shine now with Bolden injured) should be considered RB's or WR's. two former #1 picks traded for a pair of 4ths. Just think, whatever WR-RB-TE they draft # 1 this year will be on the trading block in 5 years. #1 pick Donte Whitner gone, and now playing for a top five D in SF ! Poz gone, and now playing for a top 5 D in Jacksonville. #1 pick Maybin gone and now playing on a top #7 D, doing well with the hated Jets. WTH good is it to have patience when this club keeps jettisoning its top picks and talent ?? refuses to hire top coaches to get the best out of its players so players like Maybin are completely wasted in Buffalo. So tell me, wtf good is having patience with a team in which everyone in the organization has no effing clue how to do their job!! Save the yes men who are responsible for ticket sales, as they will make up any rumor they can to fill the stadium WR's RB's TE's, and no talk of better protection for a man who has difficulty taking 3 step drop backs because he has no time to throw.... For the love of God it would be great at some point for Fitz to be able to take 5-7 step drops like the most other teams in the NFL, but I suppose that won't happen in this owners (Ralph Wilson's) lifetime hmmmmm Lynch - Fans ran him out of town faster then he could ever run on the field at RWS because they were afraid one more screw up and he is gone for the year Evans - Fans talked about how he was expendable and should be traded, only reason fans are upset was because they overvalued what they thought another team would pay for him. He has also been invisible this year (or is that him being a high priced decoy for the Ravens now?) Whitner - Fans have been running him out of town every since his name was called at the podium the day he was drafted because he wasn't who everyone thought we should have drafted Maybin - Again, Fans were running him out of town since the day he was drafted, too small and light to be an NFL player Poz - Fans ran him out of town too, was only worth signing cheap but replaceable Funny how atleast 3 (probably 4) of the 5 players you mentioned were all players fans couldn't wait to get rid of also. Now that they go off to other teams and make some plays, they are all valuable pieces that they should never have let go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramius Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 "Patience" = the bills aren't doing jack **** this offseason to improve the roster except for letting stevie walk and drafting his replacement in the 1st round. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KD in CA Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 What he meant was, "It will take several more years for all of the good players the Bills have to be let go rather than resigned. But just wait till you see who we draft to take their place!!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach Tuesday Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 hmmmmm Lynch - Fans ran him out of town faster then he could ever run on the field at RWS because they were afraid one more screw up and he is gone for the year Evans - Fans talked about how he was expendable and should be traded, only reason fans are upset was because they overvalued what they thought another team would pay for him. He has also been invisible this year (or is that him being a high priced decoy for the Ravens now?) Whitner - Fans have been running him out of town every since his name was called at the podium the day he was drafted because he wasn't who everyone thought we should have drafted Maybin - Again, Fans were running him out of town since the day he was drafted, too small and light to be an NFL player Poz - Fans ran him out of town too, was only worth signing cheap but replaceable Funny how atleast 3 (probably 4) of the 5 players you mentioned were all players fans couldn't wait to get rid of also. Now that they go off to other teams and make some plays, they are all valuable pieces that they should never have let go. Wow. Just, wow. I have a bridge to sell you... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobChalmers Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 (edited) Really? Patience you wanna talk patience? Patience I mean cmon man its only ben 12 years that we have been "statring from scratch". i hate that old man period. fire away This just in: However long you've been waiting and hoping for the Bills' success, Mr. Wilson has been at it longer and more passionately than you ever have. Sorry, if the Buffalo market doesn't get him the sort of stupid box seat revenue he'd need to be a free agent idiot like Dan Snyder, so we could have the same sort of success they do here in D.C. It doesn't mean he doesn't love his team and want them to win. If that's a problem for you - don't blame RW, blame yourselves for voting lopsided Democrat every year awarding you one of the most anti-business states in the union, with all the lovely destroyed economy to go with it. At least demand they stop screwing you over for the benefit of NYC. As it is, it's close to a miracle the team is still there. That they actually started to show some real game this season before the injuries did them in is a fantastic sign for the NEAR future. Patience is justified. I believe Nix is going to address the OLB position (finally) amd if they do, they're going to be a whole different animal for 2012. Edited December 23, 2011 by BobChalmers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apuszczalowski Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 The way the NFL is setup you can rebuild a team rather quickly if your willing to bring in top flight coaches & a GM that know what he is doing & are willing to spend money. The bills have none of this. They have a GM that noone wanted who has 1 foot out the door thinking of retirement, they have coaches that noone wanted, they have beancounters making critical football decisions & they have an owner that refuses to open up his checkbook. Seriously wilson, your time has come, sell the fuggin team. If that means the team moves then so be it. The way the Bills are run now, it is like they are not even part of the NFL. They are like a minor league franchise for the rest of the teams. You are right, you just go to the "Top Flight Coaches and GM Store" and pick whichever one you want and then plant them in your stadium and water them with money and in one offseason you have a contending team! Where do you think these top flight coaches come from? You also realise that its not just a matter of calling up these guys, saying you are offering them a job for alot of money and they are yours. They have to want to come coach or be the GM of your team too. They went after Shanahan, he turned them down, They talked to Cowher and he turned them down but highly recommended the guy they currently have. They even went after some of the top co-ordinators and those guys wanted to stay at their current position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewildrabbit Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 hmmmmm Lynch - Fans ran him out of town faster then he could ever run on the field at RWS because they were afraid one more screw up and he is gone for the year Evans - Fans talked about how he was expendable and should be traded, only reason fans are upset was because they overvalued what they thought another team would pay for him. He has also been invisible this year (or is that him being a high priced decoy for the Ravens now?) Whitner - Fans have been running him out of town every since his name was called at the podium the day he was drafted because he wasn't who everyone thought we should have drafted Maybin - Again, Fans were running him out of town since the day he was drafted, too small and light to be an NFL player Poz - Fans ran him out of town too, was only worth signing cheap but replaceable Funny how atleast 3 (probably 4) of the 5 players you mentioned were all players fans couldn't wait to get rid of also. Now that they go off to other teams and make some plays, they are all valuable pieces that they should never have let go. Did you miss the part, refuses to hire top coaches to get the best out of its players so players like Maybin are NOT completely wasted in Buffalo. All 5 of those players were either #1 or a #2 draft pick that are now doing great with their "new" team, (save Evans who was injured most of the year) Doesn't it bother you that an owner states the team "has no talent" and yet the team keeps jettisoning its top draft picks and talent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramius Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 Did you miss the part, refuses to hire top coaches to get the best out of its players so players like Maybin are NOT completely wasted in Buffalo. All 5 of those players were either #1 or a #2 draft pick that are now doing great with their "new" team, (save Evans who was injured most of the year) Doesn't it bother you that an owner states the team "has no talent" and yet the team keeps jettisoning its top draft picks and talent Exactly. Ralphie claims we have no talent, but now he's too much of a cheap ass to pay Stevie what he's worth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apuszczalowski Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 Honestly man, here is what you should do: go to your bank, tell them you'd like to empty all of your accounts, and have them make out a check to Ralph Wilson, Jr. for the full amount. Then send it to him with a Christmas card. It will save you the trouble of having to make multiple payments to him over time. So because I have patience and don't feel that I am entitled to having a winning pro football team near by that I am willing to just give my money away to the Bills I have other things in my life that are more important then crying that the football team I watch on Sunday isn't doing the things that I feel like they should be doing. My ego/self worth isn't directly tied to how well my pro sports teams look in the eyes of others. Sadly it appears like yours is Relax man, he is probably just one of "CodeMonkey's" people! As CM pointed out, those are the people who are scared to death that RW will move the team if he stops buying season tickets or merchandise. I can't wait til they are moved and to watch all those wishing Ralph dies that will be crying to the NFL about how they could allow their team to move because "the Bills are so vital to the NFL, and Buffalo can support a Pro Football team!" Wow. Just, wow. I have a bridge to sell you... Are you going to try and tell me that everyone loved those players and wanted to keep them? What did I say that was so unbelievable? Exactly. Ralphie claims we have no talent, but now he's too much of a cheap ass to pay Stevie what he's worth. Problem is, what Stevie wants, and what Stevies worth are 2 way different numbers........ Did you miss the part, refuses to hire top coaches to get the best out of its players so players like Maybin are NOT completely wasted in Buffalo. All 5 of those players were either #1 or a #2 draft pick that are now doing great with their "new" team, (save Evans who was injured most of the year) Doesn't it bother you that an owner states the team "has no talent" and yet the team keeps jettisoning its top draft picks and talent Do they refuse, or do top coaches just turn them down? They went after Shanahan and he took the job that he wanted in Washington (Hows that working out for them?). Cowher said he didn't want to coach but gave them the recommendation to sign the guy currently coaching here. Maybin looks good on a Jets defence because he has just one job, come in on obvious passing downs and just try and get to the QB with the rest of the defence. Would you have been happier if they re-signed Whitner & Poz, and kept Lynch, Evans and Maybin? The problem is that they need to draft better "talent" thats worth keeping around. And besides Lynch (but only these last few weeks and the one playoff game last season) and Maybins sacks, have any of the others really been playing "Great" like you say? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KOKBILLS Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 TEs that don't get injured? When I read that I honestly could not believe he said that...Considering for the 1st time in almost forever we have a TE that is not only contributing, but looks to be a keeper...Yes the Kid got hurt, but he plays hard and give 100% effort...And Ralph throws out this blanket statement? If I was Chandler I would be pretty pissed off at that comment... Just go Ralph...Get out...Let Our people go...These recent statements are pretty much the icing on the cake for me...I can just imagine what Season Ticket holders think about the "patience" comment...Oh boy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H2o Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 Is Ralph gonna draft in honor of Al Davis this year and take guys with the fastest 40 times? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Endless Ike Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 They went after Shanahan, he turned them down, They talked to Cowher and he turned them down but highly recommended the guy they currently have. They even went after some of the top co-ordinators and those guys wanted to stay at their current position. And why is that? because Ralph is a meddlesome bastard and buffalo is probably the worst franchise in the NFL. It's a long road to turning that reputation around, but it can be done. Ralphie boy isn't even trying Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Grid Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 (edited) If he's there, otherwise it'll be Alshon Jeffery and you can wave goodbye to Steve Johnson. It'll be a classic Bills running-in-place move. This is a legitimate worry...I could easily see the Bills letting SJ go and drafting his replacement in the second round or later, significantly downgrading the position. Meanwhile idiots here will defend the move saying SJ isnt worth top ten money because he had a couple high profile bone-headed moves. Forgetting of course that buffalo HAS to over pay guys to have a roste,as a consistantly losing franchise, run like crap, and located in Buffalo is generally the last place any free agent would ever want to play. Edited December 23, 2011 by DC Grid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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