Paying the Wrong People

[MDH]

Is the OP really stating that Benford got "market value?" Ok. Dude is a top 7-10 CB and is getting paid like the 20th. You should be ecstatic about this contract. 

 

I keep seeing people rip Beane for "almost losing Cook." You're ripping him for getting a high end RB for $11M a year? Shouldn't you be happy that he got him on a lower per year deal? Wait till you see what Gibbs and Robinson get.

 

Groot is getting paid like the 16th best DE and that's without a some young guys who are better getting theirs yet. This is probably market value, maybe a tad high. Nothing worth complaining about. If you want good edge play you have to pay for it. Groot is good - not great. Most fans don't know what they're looking at when they rip Rousseau. 

 

Shakir - he probably got about the right amount, maybe a little high. He's getting severely misused in this offense. It's as if Brady thinks he can only catch screens. 

 

Bernard-  I'm not happy with that contract. He can't stay healthy. He's never available in the playoffs. I would have passed on him. Best way to salvage it is to move him to outside backer and hope his smaller frame can hold up better there.

 

Palmer- I liked the signing at the time but the missed time is frustrating. If he could stay healthy I like what he can bring to the O and he'd develop a better rapport with Josh...but that's a big IF. He's had some injury issues his entire career so this isn't exactly surprising.

 

Samuel-  I hated the signing at the time because of his widely known and discussed injury issues. That's come to pass.

 

The Hoecht signing was awesome. He was going to be a wrecking ball in this D. It's unfortunate what happened but that can't be placed on Beane. Stuff happens sometimes, it's not always someone's fault.

 

Overall I think what fans are most frustrated about is the injuries which end up producing uneven play week to week. The team gets decimated every single year by them. That's part D philosophy (wanting small DTs and LBs), part bad luck and part signing guys who have injury histories. Beane isn't blameless for the faults of the team but he's done a pretty good job overall. Despite what fans want to believe, Allen isn't carrying this team to division titles and playoff wins every year by himself. The team is solid...just a little snakebit.

 

[Mikie2times]

11 minutes ago, MJS said:

Rousseau isn't paid like a premier pass rusher, though. He is paid like an average starter.

He will make top 15 money the next few years for his position. How many run defenders who can’t rush the passer are going to make that at DE? How many teams have a guy like that making top 15 money and then have another elite pass rusher (which requires top 15 money).

It was a bad deal from a roster building standpoint. Classic Beane move.  It virtually locks up a mediocre pass rush at DE because he has to be your primary DE from a payroll perspective. If he’s not we have too much $ allocated to the position. He's not a guy you pay if for a discount because he will block impact players in the future. Same with Bernard, same with a lot of these lil baller decisions. 

[MJS]

5 minutes ago, Mikie2times said:

He will make top 15 money the next few years for his position. How many run defenders who can’t rush the passer are going to make that at DE? How many teams have a guy like that making top 15 money and then have another elite pass rusher (which requires top 15 money).

It was a bad deal from a roster building standpoint. Classic Beane move.  It virtually locks up a mediocre pass rush at DE because he has to be your primary DE from a payroll perspective. If he’s not we have too much $ allocated to the position. He's not a guy you pay if for a discount because he will block impact players in the future. Same with Bernard, same with a lot of these lil baller decisions. 

He isn't making top 15 money. He is the 16th highest paid pass rusher, and every season that ranking will go down. His pay might seem like a lot to you, but that is what the market is for a player the caliber of Rousseau.

 

That being said, I was against signing him to a 2nd contract. I would have let him walk.

Edited 9 hours ago by MJS

[Ridgewaycynic2013]

10 minutes ago, MDH said:

Bernard-  I'm not happy with that contract. He can't stay healthy. He's never available in the playoffs. I would have passed on him. Best way to salvage it is to move him to outside backer and hope his smaller frame can hold up better there.

Golden Corral buffet, and protein powder?  That ought to bulk up these 98 lb. weaklings the team likes to sign! 😁

[mjt328]

My problem with Beane is mostly with talent evaluation.  His method for building a roster seems more like putting a checkmark in a box, than actually targeting specific prospects that he is confident will be successful in the NFL.

 

On draft day, he goes in with his top 3 position needs and a plan to address them with his top 3 picks.  Just following the board that he and the scout team assembled.  You never hear anything about them being truly convicted that a player will be great, or them being willing to make a significant trade to target a player they covet.  

 

[Augie]

4 minutes ago, MJS said:

He isn't making top 15 money. He is the 16th highest paid pass rusher, and every season that ranking will go down.

 

Don’t let the facts get in the way! Oh, and let’s point out that while he may currently be about 16th, he’s getting less than 50% of what the top guys are getting. If you have a problem with that then you are just looking for problems to complain about, imo. 

[Mikie2times]

8 minutes ago, MJS said:

He isn't making top 15 money. He is the 16th highest paid pass rusher, and every season that ranking will go down.

We made the decision to block spending premium dollars on a premium position to “lock” in a run defender. It’s dumb roster building. You would be infinitely better off signing rotational pieces at DE to sub top 45 money and landing a premier player. Same story with how we treat WR. “Bargain” major air quotes with Samuel and Palmer amounting to almost nothing, vs just taking a shot at higher talent. If you want to focus on 16 money vs 15 vs top 20, none of it really matters. It’s enough to prevent future premium investment. That is the problem.

Edited 9 hours ago by Mikie2times

[transient]

3 hours ago, Rubes said:

 

Does it also play WR?

 

🤔... I mean, based on the production we get from our WR group... and based on the high bar for football intellect that it would have to clear using Coleman as a comparison... maybe? 🤷‍♂️

[MJS]

10 minutes ago, Mikie2times said:

We made the decision to block spending premium dollars on a premium position to “lock” in a run defender. It’s dumb roster building. You would be infinitely better off signing rotational pieces at DE to sub top 45 money and landing a premier player. Same story with how we treat WR. “Bargain” major air quotes with Samuel and Palmer amounting to almost nothing, vs just taking a shot at higher talent. If you want to focus on 16 money vs 15 vs top 20, none of it really matters. It’s enough to prevent future premium investment. That is the problem.

Like I said, I was against signing him to a 2nd contract. So, I agree with you. Rousseau is a good player, but not what we need. We need a sack specialist.

[TheFunPolice]

43 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

But this raises the obvious question - how much of a say does McDermott have in roster construction? I understand that Beane scouts the players and runs the draft. I do not however believe that he is going renegade signing players that McDermott doesn't believe in. McDermott sets the direction, Beane steers the ship. That's always been my understanding of their roles. Remember, McDermott hired Beane not the other way around.

 

As an example Seattle traded for Rashid Shaheed at the deadline. I am very confident that was at the request of Klint Kubiak who had previously coached him in New Orleans. I have no doubt if we had an offensive coach here we would place more of an emphasis on skill players. I don't believe McDermott is secretly seething behind the scenes because his GM doesn't give his offense enough weapons or brings back old defensive players that know the system. I believe McDermott is ultimately responsible for the overarching philosophy that guides these decisions.

 

That certainly makes sense to me, and I think it must be true to some extent that McDermott orders the groceries and Beane goes shopping, to use Parcells analogy. In that case, McDermott could be unhappy with the execution of the plan/goal. 

 

 

[VW82]

Any chance OPer had of making their case was lost when they included a bunch of 'almost screwed up but didn't' transactions (e.g. Cook) that were really just skilled negotiations. That said, this has been a frustrating year. So many moves that looked good at the time didn't work out, and a lot of it was just plain bad luck. 

[Mikie2times]

9 minutes ago, MJS said:

Like I said, I was against signing him to a 2nd contract. So, I agree with you. Rousseau is a good player, but not what we need. We need a sack specialist.

Fair, and I don’t disagree, he’s a good player and we aren’t exactly overpaying. I think that is the prevailing argument around here and it’s incorrect.
 

Even a guy like Bernard I apply the same logic with. That could be a good deal so to speak, but from my view if that deal prevents more aggressive investment at MLB to try and upgrade it’s not a good way to build the roster.

 

You obviously can’t have studs everywhere. I just think we tilt way too hard of late towards B players vs maybe some D/C filler types with some A players. Which really frustrates me because I believe Beane was more on the path if trying to get higher talent in the past. But the conclusion of the Diggs and Miller situations just left him burnt. But to me those were the correct moves even if they didn’t go how we wanted in full. The year Miller got hurt he very well could have been the piece we needed. 

1 hour ago, HappyDays said:

 

But this raises the obvious question - how much of a say does McDermott have in roster construction? I understand that Beane scouts the players and runs the draft. I do not however believe that he is going renegade signing players that McDermott doesn't believe in. McDermott sets the direction, Beane steers the ship. That's always been my understanding of their roles. Remember, McDermott hired Beane not the other way around.

 

As an example Seattle traded for Rashid Shaheed at the deadline. I am very confident that was at the request of Klint Kubiak who had previously coached him in New Orleans. I have no doubt if we had an offensive coach here we would place more of an emphasis on skill players. I don't believe McDermott is secretly seething behind the scenes because his GM doesn't give his offense enough weapons or brings back old defensive players that know the system. I believe McDermott is ultimately responsible for the overarching philosophy that guides these decisions.

It’s very hard to separate them, which is why I largely don’t try to do so. 

[Nuncha]

Quit your day job, become an NFL GM, then tell us how "easy" it is to put together a Super Bowl roster every year that EVERY fan on earth agrees with 100%.  Good luck.

Edited 8 hours ago by Nuncha

[notpolian]

I broadly agree with most of the OP points. 

 

What you have to be careful about with the AAV argument on contracts is that two edge rushers getting $20M per year don't add up to one true difference maker getting $40/ year.  You can have 6 decent defensive linemen at $20M/ year and it doesn't add up to one true difference maker imo.  (Obviously this is impossible with the cap, and you need depth). 

 

You have to have a couple real stars, and we just don't have them on defense at all.  Benford is solid.  I have hope for Bishop.  It's too soon to say with Hairston.   I keep hearing how good Rousseau is against the run but we normally suck against the run.  Oliver comes and goes and we still get run over.  Bernard looks like an albatross contract right now.  Milano is getting old.

 

I just don't think Beane can judge talent well, and he has got the team into a tight cap situation with only two difference makers (Allen, Cook).  The WR argument has has been beaten to death.

 

If it was me, I would reset this offseason.  It would be risky, but we have a window to win it all and it'll shut if you don't do something soon.  The current regime has run its course.

[brianthomas]

i read this in another thread but it really encapsulates Beane's philosophy. 

Beane would rather have 4 quarters than a $1

[chris heff]

7 hours ago, Marcus Aurelius said:

No Palm Trees  ...

“The happiness of your life depends upon the quality of your thoughts.”

[DCofNC]

11 hours ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

I understand the arguments made against these contracts, even back at the time of signing before the benefit of hindsight.

 

However... what else was Beane supposed to do. Besides maybe "draft better", which even then could be argued since that list has a couple of 5th rounders and a 3rd rounder that turned into starters. 

 

We couldnt let that core walk. Sure they arent All-Pros like we'd all love them to be, but for as disappointing as some of them have been, letting them walk and creating even more holes would have been worse.

 

I dont think drafting or re-signing any of these guys is the issue, as much as not drafting other talent to go around them

 

Better DL drafting would make Rousseau and Bernard, and probably even Benford, look better.

Better WR drafting would make Shakir better by not being the main focus as a small slot receiver.

I think it’s pretty obvious what he could do.  Let the guys walk and replace them with better players for less money.  Example, don’t resign Rousseau because he’s basically invisible, save 20M, with that you could look at any of the 1 year rentals like Bosa or Floyd, add Clooney etc.  Heck, he could have signed all 3 for about what he spent on Groot.  More production, more depth and less money.   So with that extra money that’s NOT wasted on an average guy, there’s room for another 10M worth of talent on the roster.   The problem is, the SAME mistake time and time again.  Bass, easily replaced, Bernard… already replaced, Rapp, Hamlin, Milano, Knox, Oliver, to this point Benford, arguable on Brown as well.  The team has never had the top end talent to get over the hump because they won’t part with mediocre. Add in the FA flops like Samuel, Palmer, Moore.  All taking up cap space for no production.

 

Yes it ALL stems from mediocre drafting, but it’s completely on Beane not cutting the loss and continuing to push on with bad investments.  Doing that pigeon holes him trying to fill the roster by swinging for “potential” from guys other teams refuse to pay as much as he will.  See Palmer, Moore, Samuel, Rapp, etc.  

 

The most obvious issue is the DL, he needed to let Oliver, Jones, Groot, AJE all walk and sign the likes of Bosa, Floyd etc for less money and more production.  Instead they have one of the highest paid, least effective lines in the NFL. 
 

It gets worse at WR, not much better at TE when you look at the draft investment as well.  Safety has been become a major problem as well, the only saving grace is Bishop appears to have figured it out and is making up a lot out there.

[BigDingus]

Outside of Josh Allen, Beane's best 1st round draft pick was used acquiring Stefon Diggs. 

 

Since then, he's been sub-par at both drafting & signing impactful free agents. How anyone could argue Beane's been paying the right people is insane to me. 

 

We have the least cap space in the entire league, with next to nothing to show for it. That's not good! 

 

Meanwhile, the Pats have the most cap space available, are already way ahead of us in progress, and still have Maye on a rookie contract. When they have to pay him, that gap will close, but it's a huge boon for them right now. 

[BillsFanForever19]

I feel like we get one of these a day just with different worded titles. At this rate there should just a be a "B word about Brandon Beane and/or Sean McDermott here" pinned thread.

[YoloinOhio]

TLDR but you know he’s paying dalton first aid so I just accept it