Bills don't "need" a WR, they need to use the ones they have better

[Big Turk]

11 minutes ago, Jrb1979 said:

Results in the regular season are great.  Many want to see a Super Bowl championship before Allen retires.   

 

 

Then the defense should actually resemble the one we see during the season instead of one that can't force a punt against Mahomes.

[Billy Claude]

8 hours ago, Royale with Cheese said:

Elijah Moore averaged 60 receptions for the last two seasons with QB’s in Cleveland.  For him not to have really any production here is weird.  
 

He gets open.  He has speed.  He has good hands.

 

I think Brady overthinks and doesn’t take the obvious.
 

Palmer and Moore should have good production in this offense.  

 

Elijah Moore also had a 51% catch rate for Cleveland last year, by far the worse on the team.  It wasn't because he was being targeted deep.  He only averaged 8.8 yards per catch.

 

There's a reason the Browns made no effort to keep him.

[billsfan89]

I think they needed a more consistent boundary WR. But if they can get Palmer going more when he’s matched up 1 v 1 on the outside it would help. 

[somnus00]

I think TEs are more of a strength on this team than the WRs. I'd like to see more 12 or even 13 personnel.

 

13 could provide a lot of mismatch problems. Bring in LBs to stop the run, we'll pass to Kincaid, Knox, and Dawes. Bring in DBs to stop the pass, we'll run it down your throat.

[bills11]

11 hours ago, Big Turk said:

More and more what I am starting to believe is this team has enough at the WR spot and is just misusing them.

 

There is no way you can tell me all of the following players under Brady who have shown the ability to get deep and make plays downfield before and after they have been here just suddenly forgot how to play WR and do that here:

 

• Stefon Diggs (had a phenomenal start to season under Dorsey with multiple 100+ yard games then went mostly silent under Brady)
• MVS (couldn't utilize his deep speed or chose not to then goes to NO after being cut and has multiple weeks in a row I am watching in game updates of him catching 50+ yard TD passes)
• Elijah Moore (always productive even with revolving trashcans throwing to him over his career, 4.3 speed, open a LOT in this offense downfield)
• Josh Palmer (saw plenty of highlights with Herbert targeting and connecting on deep balls with him)
• Gabe Davis (one of the best deep ball WR's in the NFL)

 

Probably some others...

 

Some of this is intentional as Brady prioritizes ball-control, clock-control offense where you take layups over and over again, minimize TOs, run the ball down the other teams throats and then rely on a handful of Allen plays a game to usually win comfortably. 

 

I believe this is also intentional on the way McD wants to play because it limits our TOs, we are super efficient at scoring points and TDs, it limits the opponent possessions meaning they have to score more efficiently than they typically do to keep up and we also are good at taking the ball away many times which further limits their possessions. 

 

All that is good and makes logical sense. But this STILL doesn't excuse the complete ignoring all too often of using what you have to attack the intermediate areas of the field to throw a barrage of short passes. 

 

Take this example in the Chiefs game: 

 

Moore is WIDE OPEN in the deep middle and if Allen hits him in stride it's at least another 5-10 yards on top of that.  What happens? He checks it down to Hawes, who is equally open, but the pass goes awry and it's incomplete...and it's not this one example I am harping on to be clear...Allen was awesome in the Chiefs game. It's the Bills intentionally choose not to make themselves more versatile too often when they don't need to, almost as if they take pride in telling the D "here is what we are going to do, now come and stop us." Most times they can't, but sometimes they can and I don't think they have properly developed their answer to when that happens in critical moments and they are far too slow to shift to it when it DOES happen in those moments. 

 

My thoughts are that Moore needs to be playing a bigger role in this offense and Coleman needs to be playing a lesser one. Palmer needs to be getting some of these type of routes (which, to be fair, he started to in the ATL game before getting hurt). Currently it seems the only person they use on these outside of Moore every so often, is Kincaid, which is great, but it's like c'mon...let's open it up a little here when we need to.  I mean even Samuel showed he has the ability in the Broncos playoff game where he took a deep over to the house and smoke DPOY Surtain...

 

Maybe they are saving it for the playoffs when they need it, but IMO at this point, I think it's mismanaging who they ALREADY HAVE at WR more than them needing another WR that is the bigger problem.

 

Bills seemingly favoring the bigger WRs that help them in run blocking and trying to prevent giving "tells" to the other team that we are passing by bringing in Moore and Samuel instead of Coleman and Shavers but at some point you have to be willing to give up a little in what you do amazingly well to add to the passing game.

 

Could not agree more I made a similar topic in the offseason a few posters said it was inappropriate to question Brady's resume..bottom line is do the bills DO have some talent that can be used. 

 

I've come to theorize that I believe that's just how they want to run the offence.. I think after Dorsey didn't work out running a high volume pass offence and Josh was turning rhe ball over and we lost to the dolphins go figure.  McDermott put rhe complete clamps on the offence Josh is being coached to not take risks with fhe ball at all.

[BuffaloBillsGospel2014]

3 hours ago, Big Turk said:

 

They clearly don't value WR to the degree most people do.  Hard to argue with their results.  All we seem to do is complain, complain, complain and no matter what they would do, we would find something else to complain about.

 

Until the playoffs come and then we forget how to catch, drop passes and nobody can get open, nothing wrong with complaining about it as we all go to games, spend money on merch and are fans, what else are we supposed to do?

[Nihilarian]

Yes, QB Josh Allen was a "gunslinger" under OC Brian Daboll in the mode of Brett Favre (who BTW leads the NFL in INTs) The current OC Joe Brady came in after Ken Dorsey was fired during the bye week 2023 while in a 6-6 season with the Bills #1 WR Diggs getting most of the throws his way. That 2023 season Josh threw 18 INTs and he also had 7 fumbles. 

 

Under Joe Brady the Buffalo Bills offense has become a run centric offense and because of this the 2024 Buffalo Bills were #2 in scoring and #1 in scoring including the playoffs. It also limited the Buffalo turnovers with only 3 INTs from Allen which led to the Bills leading the NFL in turnover ratio at +24. The 2024 Buffalo offense ended the season #2 in points scored and #10 in yards. 18 interceptions vs 3!  

 

What they discovered was that while Stephon Diggs the #1 WR was gaining a lot of yards playing against average to good teams...he failed in the playoffs games. In 2023 playoffs against Pittsburgh he had 9 targets, 7 receptions for 52 yards. Against the Chiefs he had 9 targets, 3 receptions for 21 yards, one fumble. In the first half of that game the Chiefs had their best DB in L'Jarius Sneed covering Diggs and in the second half moved him to cover Shakir. It was Shakir who caught the only TD pass against Sneed all season. 

 

This was a big reason as to why Buffalo traded him to the Texans and ate 31 million in cap space. Buffalo received a #2 draft pick and gave up a 5th and 6th pick 

following the firing of Ken Dorsey and elevation of Joe Brady to offensive coordinator last season, Diggs saw his role diminish. In the final seven regular season games and two playoff tilts, the wideout never hit the 100-yard mark, and his playtime went from consistently around 90% to dipping into the 60s.

 

Bills fans need to understand that the offense is not broken because they don't have that prototypical #1 WR.  In 2023 they were 3 points away from advancing in the playoffs and the same 3 points in 2024. If anything it has been the defensive injuries at the end of the season.

 

 

[Richard Noggin]

12 hours ago, Big Turk said:

 

I think the OP is ABSURDLY overvaluing the Bills current/recent WR talent as compared to most top NFL teams...however the example above DOES lend credence to the notion that there is obvious meat left on the bone each week even with our current WR room. 

 

In this clip, it MUST be the early flash of pressure that brings Allen's eyes down to an underneath crosser, right? Playing it safe, I guess? Nonetheless you just GOTTA climb the pocket and smoke one downfield to the third level, to Samuel, even if it means taking a hit upon release. That's an open intermediate chunk. 

 

Damn it. 

[GolfandBills]

18 minutes ago, Richard Noggin said:

 

I think the OP is ABSURDLY overvaluing the Bills current/recent WR talent as compared to most top NFL teams...however the example above DOES lend credence to the notion that there is obvious meat left on the bone each week even with our current WR room. 

 

In this clip, it MUST be the early flash of pressure that brings Allen's eyes down to an underneath crosser, right? Playing it safe, I guess? Nonetheless you just GOTTA climb the pocket and smoke one downfield to the third level, to Samuel, even if it means taking a hit upon release. That's an open intermediate chunk. 

 

Damn it. 

He passes up this throw quite a bit.  Almost every game this same clip pops up somewhere 

[ProcessTruster]

18 hours ago, Big Turk said:

 

I honestly think they have enough if they just used them better. Moore or Samuel against most CB4's should win.

yeah this is pretty much all on Allen.  What the h-ll was he looking at?   Folks need to come off the "Josh can do no wrong" train and see that he is either be coached down or is just not seeing the opportunities  very well.  

[DabillsDaBillsDaBills]

9 hours ago, Richard Noggin said:

 

I think the OP is ABSURDLY overvaluing the Bills current/recent WR talent as compared to most top NFL teams...however the example above DOES lend credence to the notion that there is obvious meat left on the bone each week even with our current WR room. 

 

In this clip, it MUST be the early flash of pressure that brings Allen's eyes down to an underneath crosser, right? Playing it safe, I guess? Nonetheless you just GOTTA climb the pocket and smoke one downfield to the third level, to Samuel, even if it means taking a hit upon release. That's an open intermediate chunk. 

 

Damn it. 

 

Yea, I think this particular play the early pressure by Jones makes Allen skittish. He steps up in the pocket and takes (the also wide open) check down to Hawes. I'm still not sure why this wasn't a catch. Looks like it went right through Hawes hands? 

 

Big picture does our WR corps suck or do we need to use them better?

 

I think it's both. In terms of talent this is probably a bottom 5 WR corps, but we don't use them well either in this offensive scheme. 

[D. L. Hot-Flamethrower]

The answer is, we'll see next time we play NE and Christian Gonzalez and Carlton Davis are on Deon Coleman! I hope we've come up with a work around by then.

[Mikey152]

If it is ok with all of you, I think I am going to defer to the professionals on this one…you know, the ones that set the Bills scoring record last year.

 

For the first time in as long as I can remember, the Bills are actually on the leading edge of NFL offenses, and all our fans want is to copy offenses from 5 years ago that require crazy expensive players.

 

All because Josh Allen has a big arm. It’s nuts

[Miyagi-Do Karate]

14 minutes ago, D. L. Hot-Flamethrower said:

The answer is, we'll see next time we play NE and Christian Gonzalez and Carlton Davis are on Deon Coleman! I hope we've come up with a work around by then.

That’s the thing. It makes no sense to attack the patriots at boundary corner. The same is true of the chiefs. That’s what made our game against New England so maddening.
 

The way to attack them is getting the TEs and RBs involved in the passing game. Their LBs can’t cover our TEs or RBs. I thought for sure Ty Johnson would have like 10 catches, and he had zero targets! 

[billieve420]

Would like to see Brady incorporate more passing on first down including play action. Everything seems so tight and keeping the other team guessing should hopefully open things up. Also, not using the running backs more in the short passing game doesn’t make sense to me at all. We should be looking to get the ball into the hands of your playmakers and let them create.
 

The unanswered question is still what happens when the other team shuts down the run and whether this team will be able to pass the ball effectively.

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

12 hours ago, Billy Claude said:

 

Elijah Moore also had a 51% catch rate for Cleveland last year, by far the worse on the team.  It wasn't because he was being targeted deep.  He only averaged 8.8 yards per catch.

 

There's a reason the Browns made no effort to keep him.

 

Jeudy is currently rocking a 40.7% catch rate with cleveland this year.  QB does matter when it comes to catch %.  

 

Team Comp% where Moore has played in his career:

 

Jets 2021 - 59.2% - 29th in the league

Jets 2022 - 56.9% - 32nd in the league

Browns 2023 - 56.9% - 32nd in the league

Browns 2024 - 59.8%- 31st in the league

 

Now having said all that - and having seen him play - I'm not a big fan.  Him and Samuel are the only guys bringing vertical speed to the equation at the moment though, so at some point they may need to ramp up his snaps a bit - especially with Samuel being notoriously unavailable.  

[Mr. WEO]

Beane couldn’t have said it better…

[D. L. Hot-Flamethrower]

8 minutes ago, Miyagi-Do Karate said:

That’s the thing. It makes no sense to attack the patriots at boundary corner. The same is true of the chiefs. That’s what made our game against New England so maddening.
 

The way to attack them is getting the TEs and RBs involved in the passing game. Their LBs can’t cover our TEs or RBs. I thought for sure Ty Johnson would have like 10 catches, and he had zero targets! 

Agreed! Sometimes I am perplexed by Brady. He can brilliant if he respects the opponent. Other times he seems stubborn to the point of I can run whatever I want no matter. 

Edited 7 hours ago by D. L. Hot-Flamethrower

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

5 minutes ago, Miyagi-Do Karate said:

That’s the thing. It makes no sense to attack the patriots at boundary corner. The same is true of the chiefs. That’s what made our game against New England so maddening.
 

The way to attack them is getting the TEs and RBs involved in the passing game. Their LBs can’t cover our TEs or RBs. I thought for sure Ty Johnson would have like 10 catches, and he had zero targets! 

 

They lost the patriots game because they turned it over 3x and couldn't execute in the red zone.  3 passes from the 27 with 2:46 left in the game was also certainly "a choice" - for a running team that is down 3 points.  

[CEN-CAL17]

What’s crazy is for years our scheme has been questioned. 
 

The creativeness, but it’s all based on concepts and what the defense is doing. Yet you see all these others creative offensive coordinator’s scheming up plays, rubs, crossing routes, confusion etc…. Bills line up, put a guy in motion to see if it’s man or zone. Run the routes, get open.

 

thats why vs man defense this team struggles cause our WR can’t get separation unless it’s schemed to confuse or rub/pick defenders. Which they don’t do.

 

Vs man, they ask our WR to win, and they don’t. Shakir does, Kincaid can. That’s it. Plus lack of slip plays or screens to RBs is few and far between